What is it about dirt?

17 years ago

Why does dirt, organic or chemical nutrients, mulch or not create such heated feelings in people who grow plants?

I've been gardening for over 50 years, and I couldn't care less if other gardeners use the techniques and methods I use. Why do others feel it important to persuade or convert others to their beliefs and practices?

As it happens, I don't use synthetic ferts. I have access to enough naturally created chemical and mineral nutrients to keep my plants happy, and since I live right on the water, I feel a responsibility to do my best to keep synthetic nutes out of that water. But, I can imagine all sorts of circumstances where a gardener/farmer may need to use synthetics, and it doesn't bother me in the least.

I guess the bottom line is I don't need to have the acceptance and acknowledgement of members of a forum on the internet to justify my efforts in gardening. Those of you who do, should spend more effort growing your plants, and less effort evangelizing.

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Comments (71)

bpgreen
17 years ago
Actually, Maggie, he did answer your most recent question. Your most recent question was, "I'm going to repost my original "nitrogen" post not to start any debate about N but to ask what was offensive about that post?"

He told you it wasn't that post, but the one that included a line about overindulging (and he quoted from that post so you would know which one he meant.
blutranes
17 years ago
bpgreen,

Thank you so much for pointing that out for me...

Blutranes
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heptacodium
17 years ago
If only it were about dirt...soil...substrate...media...whatever you call it. Soil can be studied, measured, sifted through your fingers, quantified, analyzed--even tasted if you want to--and what is discovered can be reported.

That is not the polarizing aspect of these discussions.

To a certain extent, what is polarizing is the nature of the internet. I realize that. In order to make a point, you tremendoulsy over simplify. Someone takes exception, and the conflagration is started. Good luck putting it out.
The ability to reason, to accept another's viewpoint, are skills that are largely lost in our modern world. Doubt me? Watch a political campaign. We (people) are as grown up as we are ever going to be by the time we are five years old. After that, it's merely growing older.

Also, and this is the intensely polarizing part, people feel as strongly about dirt (yes, I call it dirt. We [dirt and I] are on a first name basis, no standing on formality here) and how you treat it as they do about politics. We all know how touchy that one can be (see above).

I fully realize this. Most often, I simply do not post a response on these forums. Personally, I have little interest in composting as discussed on these forums. I do compost. Lots. My definition of when you know you are addicted to composting is when you upgrade from a skid steer to a pay loader to rotate the pile. That sorta puts me in a different category than most people here.

For my part in the other posting, let this be known...while my intention was not to offend, I realize fully it could so be considered. For that, I apologize.

The words of the posting themselves are not what I had issue with. The attitude that anyone who did something you happen to personally disagree with is at best irresponsible, at worst deliberately malicious...there I have issues.

For stating unequivocably that I consider it wrong to condemn those who disagree, I will not apologize. I find that many things best not mentioned.

I realize on these forums I am in a distinct minority. I have no problems with that. But, I do not think others need to alter their thinking to suit me. Egads, what a boring (and disturbed?) world that would be.
shellva
17 years ago
Donn, I don't know the answer to your question. If I did I'd probably be able to bring about world peace! lol Let's face it, the world's issues are pretty much the same as on these forums just on a much larger scale! I'm right, your wrong, do it my way cuz there is absolutely no other way to get the same results.

I enjoy coming on here and reading others perspectives, their opinions, their experiences. I tend to not care for the posters who get all mightier than thou at others for their opinions or always speak in absolutes.

I, for one, value your ideas and your experiences. (I'll listen to your 50 years over my 15, take what I need and leave the rest).

I don't fully understand what all has happened to make you upset enough to post your question but whom ever has upset you, I hope you take them with a grain of salt and still continue to come back here to share what you've learned over the years. How I wish some of the posters on this forum lived just up the road from me! I'd be like a pesky weed always coming back to see what they have going on next! They'd probably get to the point where they'd even grab the Roundup (no matter how against it they are) when they saw me coming;) A joke folks!
hoorayfororganic
17 years ago
"I've been gardening for over 50 years, and I couldn't care less if other gardeners use the techniques and methods I use. Why do others feel it important to persuade or convert others to their beliefs and practices?"

Others feel it's important because they feel like synthetic ferts are an assault on the natural environment (which they are) and this gets them heated. I can see the evangilization coming from that feeling. And I personally feel like it is warranted, as long as the evangelizer presents ideas in a respectful and constructive manner.
fertilizersalesman
17 years ago
I think people fail to see that there are advantages and disadvantages to virtually everything that one can do to soil. Even adding compost, mulching and no-till have disadvantages but you donÂt hear much about it in these threads. People become focused on specific ideas without seeing the downsides or the upsides to alternatives. Also, I think gardeners fail to realize that every square foot of soil is different and that what works well in one place may not work in another. Plus anyone who spends all their spare time playing in the dirt is bound to be a little nutty.
remuda1
17 years ago
"Plus anyone who spends all their spare time playing in the dirt is bound to be a little nutty."

Blasphemy ;).

Kristi
hoorayfororganic
17 years ago
"Plus anyone who spends all their spare time playing in the dirt is bound to be a little nutty."

says the fertilizer salesman...
hoorayfororganic
17 years ago
MAYBE ALL THOSE CHEMICALS GOT TO HIS BRAIN!!!

haha. just joking around.
donn_
Original Author
17 years ago
ferts-seller..maybe you should (again) point out that you are in the organic ferts biz. Some folks don't have enough sense to read your profile.
plot_thickens
17 years ago
This little plot is affected by that little plot over there. That dude planted GMO corn, or she sprayed malathion, or drenches with miracle gro and I'm downwind/pollen/land from them.

That bugs me.

The rest of it? Pffffsh. Different people see things from different angles; the 'owl' likes the big picture and hates being pinned down for details. The 'fox' likes to keep moving and learning new things. The 'beaver' is always up with the next task in their careful plans (they're most likely to keep up with hot pile maintenance!), and the 'dolphin' personality types just lurve to talk to folks and be all sociable.

The different personality types sometimes mesh and sometimes clash, online or in person. Sometimes people love conflict. And some people feel safe in exorcising their stress online on other people they don't have to stress about later.

Let 'em. They're not stepping in my raised beds, what do I care?
fertilizersalesman
17 years ago
Hooray,

I don't sell chemicals.

My grandparents were a 'beaver' and an 'owl' as Plot put it. They finally just split their garden in half and they each did things their own way. One side was nice and strait and square and the other was a jumble of interesting clumps. My grandfather loved to rototill and my grandmother would just stir the surface a bit and stick things in where she found room. As I recall they shared compost but other than that they just shared the veggies and everyone was happy.
gamebird
17 years ago
Beliefs nearly always clash, because no two people believe quite the same thing. Facts can be proven and though they can also be misapplied or misconstrued, if you go back to the basics "X causes Y under ABC conditions" will remain true no matter what (assuming you've pinned down all the relevent conditions).

Beliefs though - that's a different matter. You can't prove those. If you could, it wouldn't be a "belief", it would be a fact.

I don't know about this Nitrogen thread, but a statement like "Finally, why buy nitrogen unless you want to harm the soil. Feed the soil organisms and let God do his work." would rile me. It asserts the belief that purchased nitrogen harms the soil and that God is out working in my garden (if that's so, then He's a lousy weeder).

Now someone saying "I've seen this about nitrogen" or "This study/article/etc. says this about it and that confirms what I've always thought" - those aren't offensive. It gets offensive when someone says or implies that anyone who has different experiences is wrong or dumb.
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Gamebird, you say:
"I don't know about this Nitrogen thread, but a statement like "Finally, why buy nitrogen unless you want to harm the soil. Feed the soil organisms and let God do his work." would rile me. It asserts the belief that purchased nitrogen harms the soil and that God is out working in my garden (if that's so, then He's a lousy weeder)."

I started the nitrogen thread hoping to bring the science to the question of how N works in the soil. I gave the reference behind my conclusion, which I stand by. I do assert that purchased N interferes with soil N fixing organisms.

(if thatÂs so....) is funny and I'm truly amused but weeds are no more related to N than non weeds except that many plants considered weeds perform better in poor soil than rich soil.

Everyone took up my conclusion rather than my reference, which must be, refuted before one questions my conclusion.

I stated at one point that I'm here to learn or teach and don't give one rats whether you like my tone or not, you won't like this either. If you fail to learn because you don't like how I delivered the facts then you are fool. If you question my facts with more or different information then you are teaching and I'm learning and I won't care how you deliver the knowledge.

Again, if you don't like the tone, I don't care!
albert_135 　 39.17°N 119.76°W 4695ft.
17 years ago
I would prefer that if someone wishes to promulgate a belief or even a conviction in the areas of organic vs. other, or natural vs. other, that they go to the organic forum.

If someone wishes to discuss the chemistry and physics and biology and geology of those areas then I would welcome them here.

The problem is that the chemistry and physics and biology and geology get rather complicated rather quickly. Remember the very good humus link? Except perhaps in hydroponics shouldn't cation exchange capacity preceed any discussion of pH? But I sat in a classroom with graduate students pulling their hair and chewing their nails over cation exchange capacity. Even buffer capacity of dilute solutions caused consternation.

So, what's the gardener to do? I brought this up in the winter of '02 when the soils forum was beginning to drift into 'It's winter and it's The Holidays and I need stimulation.' I was ignored for a few days and then someone sent me to the bottem of the page.
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Albert, can you define what should be discussed, with whatever limits you feel are appropriate?

I appoligize in advance if someone is offended by my tone.
joepyeweed
17 years ago
Statements that I generally ignore on these forums include:

1. absolutes like never or always...

2. references to God being on someone's side

3. Personal attacks. Do we know that we can actually disagree with someone's point of view, but still respect them and their experiences?

And I personally agree with Donn. I would prefer to follow the advice of someone whose information is "accepted" rather than "excepted". :-)
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Joey, accepted by who or whom, don't really know the diff?
albert_135 　 39.17°N 119.76°W 4695ft.
17 years ago
No, sorry, maggiemae, I cannot define what should be discussed. I can only share personal preferences. The limits are, and should be, whatever the forum will allow.
joepyeweed
17 years ago
Depends upon the topic...

I was just amused, along with Don, about the word excepted in one of your posts.

I make silly grammar goofs like that all the time. Unfortunately on this forum there is no edit feature, so our errors are stuck out there in cyberspace for other's amusement.

One time in a friendly disucssion on the web, I typed pubic instead of public and was utterly embarrassed.
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Interesting, I feel superior to those who do not use the language as well as I do and inferior to those who use it better.

In my area are a lot of people from a particular European country who are given to use phrases like, "you ain'tened gotta holler at me", "I ain't went there", "I hadened did that yet", etc. I enjoy making fun of them but I always understand the meaning.

Except, (if that is the right word, of course), when I feel the need for clarification then I may ask a question.

I offer all this for you amusement.

And, I apologize in advance if my tone or my grammer offends anyone.
joepyeweed
17 years ago
I usually do not feel superior/inferior to those who use language worse/better/different than myself. Generally I am the first to admit that my personal grammar, spelling, and typing skills leave much to be desired. And I rarely make such comments, but I do find some instances amusing and worthy of comment...just for the smile factor...

My tone usually offends everyone... and I think it has to do with the fact that my writing skills leave much to be desired and have no tone. I come off a bit harsh and much colder than I am in person, because you cannot see the smile on my face and my chubby cheeks (all four of 'em).
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Joe, I left grammer in for your amusement and YOU missed it?
joepyeweed
17 years ago
I did say that I rarely comment on such things, unless I find them amusing...simply mispelling a word is not amusing ...unless it turns into a different word that means something entirely different...

My sense of humor must be considerably different than most others.
blutranes
17 years ago
Albert 135,

That link is from a thread I started titled "Humus". Yes, the subject has caused much, shall we say, "verbal exchange" that I failed to gain any understanding from. Thus I searched out the link you provided. Just because something is hard to understand does not mean I should pass it by. What it means to me is that I am going to be reading this material for a long long time, for I will not leave it until the knowledge within belongs to me as well. If something written has a lot of words in the discussion, to me it represents a lot of information that is of extreme importance in the right hands.

I am witnessing the manipulation of threads as you have experienced, this is a sad example of childish behavior the wise would be served well not to follow IMO. Yet, it hurts those who do not know what is going on. The solution to this has not come to my attention, if someone else knows I trust that information will be shared.

The ability to take the complex and turn it into the simple to understand is a gift. To confuse commitment with obsession is a shallow logic that can only serve a shallow mind. Any situation can be changed; sadly the decision to change rests with those who see nothing wrongÂ

Blutranes
pablo_nh
17 years ago
I just plain like dirt. And compost. Mix judiciously for best results (at least here ya do).

The End and Thank you :)
blutranes
17 years ago
okie dokie
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Blu,
"If something written has a lot of words in the discussion, to me it represents a lot of information that is of extreme importance in the right hands."

Well said is quickly said.
pablo_nh
17 years ago
Brevity is the soul of wit.
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Steven Covey says; "Seek to understand before you can be understood."

He says ask enough questions to be sure you understand before responding.

I apologize in advance if anyone is offended by my tone.
happyday
17 years ago
Joepye, I agree with your 4 points, but it pains me (with suppressed laughter) to notice that you have misspelled a second word.

Maggiemae, I am intrigued to ask which European country your grammatically challenged locals are from. Sounds to me like they learned English from MTV.
pablo_nh
17 years ago
People usually comment on grammar when they have little of substance in their arguement.
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Happyday, I wouldn't respond with an acedemic answer about which country because it would be jumped on immediately.
What happened was, I met a fairly high ranking politician and asked if he was planning to go to Washington.
He replied; "I ain't went there yet."
This along with a few other phrases that I don't recall. So, I inquired about the ethnic background in this area and found it was settled by a large number from the same country.

PS I'm sure this will be jumped on anyway.

I apologize in advance if anyone is offended by my tone.
joepyeweed
17 years ago
I apologize in advance if anyone is offended by my tone.

Why do you keep apologizing for your tone? I think I have seen you post this statement again and again and again.

One of my very favorite posters on GW had a very famous line. She said something like: "Own your words".

Please say what you mean and quit apologizing.
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Ok, I will do my best to say what I mean and exactly what I want to say.

I apologize in advance if anyone is offended by my tone.
gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
17 years ago
One of the major problems with this or any other Internet forum as a medium of discussion is the vast range in communication styles. Some are gifted with being very clear and concise writers, able to express their ideas logically and in a universally easy to understand fashion. The rest of us fall into varying degrees of mediocrity, which complicates the effort. Not to mention that this is all done by remote so inflection, gestures, body language are all missing and therefore often humor comes across as sarcasm and a difference in opinion becomes a pedagogic lecture or worse, an argument, rather than a platform for gentle discourse.

And when we resort to name calling and other ad hominem attacks, the whole process degenerates to chaos.

It might be wise to consider the vast range of education, social conditions and experience all of the various posters here come from and treat all with dignity and respect. Everyone has something of value to offer.........sometimes it's just a bit difficult to determine what it is on the surface.
joepyeweed
17 years ago
According to Webster's Dictionary the definition of apology is an admission of error or discourtesy accompanied by an expression of regret.

I think our statements have more value when we stand behind them after they are posted...rather than hide behind false apologies.
joepyeweed
17 years ago
Don't give yourself any credit with regards to my feelings, as I have none on the matter.

Its your posts that are demeaned by your own admission of error, not mine.
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Joe, are you first born or a one and only?

I apologize in advance if anyone is offended by my tone.
joepyeweed
17 years ago
I am certainly an original, one and only, though not first born or only child. How about you?

Am having a heavy flow day though, how 'bout you?
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
What is your birth order, how many siblings and which one were you?

I apologize in advance if anyone is offended by my tone.
happyday
17 years ago
Come on, maggiemae, which country?
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Happyday email me privately and I'll tell you. I've been jumped on so much that I don't need to give Donn, Joe and Gardengal another reason.

Wilddog_202@yahoo.com
pablo_nh
17 years ago
I bet they were the damn Irishmen.

...oh, wait a minute...
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Pablo, why do you come that conclusion?

Some discuss black dialect of the south, the Welsh taught them English.
pablo_nh
17 years ago
...because I have Irish heritage- figgered it'd be kosher pickle to tease them.
trancegemini_wa
17 years ago
"What happened was, I met a fairly high ranking politician and asked if he was planning to go to Washington.
He replied; "I ain't went there yet."

maggie, "aint" is very common colloquial language in a lot of countries. Australia and England would be just two of them. It's just another way of saying "haven't". although I have my doubts if this person said "I aint went there yet", more likely they said "aint been there yet" "aint gone yet" so I think youre probably "laying it on a bit thick" as we say. ;)

TG
happyday
17 years ago
maggie I am so intrigued to know which European country this fella was from that I did email you at the address you posted here. Still waiting to hear back. I'm sure you could even name the country right here in the forum and nobody could blame you for that, right guys? I mean if the guy told you he was from there, how could anyone blame you for mentioning it?
maggiemae_2006
17 years ago
Trance, rather than laying it on, I'm understating it. That wasn't the only phrase he used, It was clearly his accent or I call it dialect.

A few quotes from a man I work with from this area.
"Don't breathe no more"
"Ain't given time yet"
"You ained't gotta holler at me"
"You can't hand out no more"
blutranes
17 years ago
Joepyeweed said:

"I usually do not feel superior/inferior to those who use language worse/better/different than myself. Generally I am the first to admit that my personal grammar, spelling, and typing skills leave much to be desired. And I rarely make such comments, but I do find some instances amusing and worthy of comment...just for the smile factor..."

Add ole Blutranes name to that list too Joe, LoL...

Blutranes

What is it about dirt?

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