Companies choose the rootstock that is easiest for them to grow. Consumers are expected to adapt their soil to the rootstock--lots of books tell you to add lime to your soil if it is too acid. I've never seen a modern book that suggests you graft your rose to a more suitable rootstock. But, I know for a fact that multiflora will grow like a weed in the clay soil in my yard without any amendments or enhancers.

Here's a link to an article on rootstock.

What ZackLau says in his first sentence says it all for the latter half of the 20th century. It was easy to grow Dr. Huey rootstock roses in the artifically irrigated playa lake beds in the dry and hot area of California. Not exactly comparable to the growing conditions of 99.999% of rose buyers in the east.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dr. Buck's article

What is multiflora exactly?

I am sure you will get a lot of answers to your question from those who followed this subject longer then I but here it is what I know.

Since all the big growers (J&P, Weeks, Star, Austin) have their growing fields in arid areas that have alkaline soil (such as Arizona, West Texas, California) they use Dr. Huey that grows fast in those areas and produces a big plant in a short time. In addition, Dr. Huey is very easy to root - I know that from personal experience because, out of curiosity, I rooted suckers without any tending long before I knew that I rooted Dr. Huey.

Problem is that Dr. Huey does not do so well in the eastern part of the country where the soil tends to be acidic (with few exceptions). I found that Dr. Huey roots dissolve in my soil in 2-3 years. The way to get around this problem is to plant roses grafted on dr. Huey deep  no matter what is the recommendation about planting them high in the south -, so by the time Dr. HueyÂs roots diminish or disappear the plant has gone own root. An additional serious problem with Dr. Huey is that with Dr. Huey, they must use cuttings and this fact led to the spread of Rose Mosaic Virus. There are rose varieties in the US that are not available virus free except if the mother plant is cleaned or a new stock plant is acquired from Canada or Europe.

I prefer multiflora rootstock that is the choice of the Canadian growers, namely Palatine and Pickering. Their roses do very well for me from day one. (Hortico also says that they graft onto multiflora but since they outsource their rose growing my guess is that they use every kind of rootstock - depending who grows a specific rose.) Multiflora is recommended for cold zone gardeners but it performs superbly for me in zone 8. Besides, multiflora is raised from seeds so the probability of RMV is very low. In addition, multiflora rootstock is used in cut flower production in Africa and that proves to me that the prejudice regarding multiflora NOT being successful in warm climate is false.

Interestingly, when I checked various Australian or European websites that produce and sell florist roses as garden plants I found that breeders often specify that a certain variety would do better and should be grafted on, letÂs say, canina, Manetti, Natal Briar or other rootstock.

Nobody pays attention to these specs in the US Â mass production of grafted roses are done where the roses grow fast and big and these big growers do not care if their roses do not do well in the eastern part of the US or the PNW.

Multiflora was once planted as living fences--it now grows wild across the continental US and is considered a weed in a dozen states.

Here is a link that might be useful: USDA profile of multiflora

R. multiflora is a cluster flowered, climbing species from Asia - part of the Synstylae section that also includes R. setigera. I believe that currently, multiflora rootstocks are seed grown from a relatively thornless seed strain. Before the growing fields moved west, most multiflora rootstock was carefully selected clones. We have at least one old ARS annual with an evaluation of different rootstocks that includes multiple numbered multiflora clones. These would be vegetatively propagated like Dr. Huey.

"Nobody pays attention to these specs in the US Â mass production of grafted roses are done where the roses grow fast and big and these big growers do not care if their roses do not do well in the eastern part of the US or the PNW."

It seems there should be growing fields somewhere on the Atlantic side, in VA, NC or SC or GA for Multiflora root stock roses. ItÂs 2007. Will it ever happen? It gives the impression that U.S. producers probably donÂt care that informed rose growers like you and I purchase roses from Canada. The uninformed mass remains clueless. But doesnÂt distributor like Witherspoon Roses in NC know better, or theyÂre too small to voice their opinion? I heard they also contract to plant and maintain rose gardens around central NC region.

Is it because currently mass production of roses in the U.S. is done in parts where Multiflora does not grow well?

Or there are other reasons?

Whenever we mention a rootstock, that rootstock is also a rose. Dr. Huey is a once-blooming climber, many people grow this "by accident". MG gave a terrific description of R. multiflora (a species rose), and you've probably seen it, it is a once bloomer, gets large, small white flowers, single form. Fortuniana is a Hybrid Banksia, white, looks like a pretty bloom, rootstock not hardy north of zone 7b. Some of us have roses grafted on Manetti, a Hybrid Noisette.

Here is a link that might be useful: Discover your Roots

Witherspoon is a middleman seller of roses and is very happy selling roses on Dr Huey.
Why?
Because Witherspoon makes a lot of money with their crews who go out and tend rose gardens made with the roses they sell. The gardens probably need attention every week. $$$$
The soils in those gardens are probably emended to a pH that Dr. Huey likes. $$$$$
Lots of fertilizer and spray to force growth ($$$$$) that wouldn't do that well in their soils without pampering.
Their clients believe that they need Witherspoon rose culture to grow roses ($$$$$) because they can't grow them well without Witherspoon's magic ($$$$).

Do you see a theme here?

"But doesnÂt distributor like Witherspoon Roses in NC know better, or theyÂre too small to voice their opinion? I heard they also contract to plant and maintain rose gardens around central NC region."

No, W does not know better or doesn't care; probably both. I have first hand proof of that. I was asked to design a rose garden here in town 3 years ago and I ordered almost all roses for this garden from Pickering. I trained a few individuals to take care of the roses on a regular basis but since they all had full time jobs, they just couldn't do it after a while. I recommended W for maintenance, after all this company has been in business for 50+ years and they have an office in this town. The owner of the garden told me that the head guy from W almost dropped dead from surprise after seeing how spectacularly these roses performed and he kept asking the owner what the heck I recommended for feeding since he had never seen anything like that before, especially not in the heat of the summer.
Couple of months later I met this W guy who paraded in a rose garden that was part of a garden tour. We got involved in a discussion but he had zero interest in other rootstock than "what is used by Weeks".

The rose garden owner has been cutting these roses by armload to decorate her very elegant store and kept getting questions from customers if W was the one who took care of her roses. She answered yes and then she added "but this is not the reason why my roses look so great".

This year I was called back to train another guy to take care of that garden. I also recommended to take out two roses that didn't seem to perform as well as the rest and I replaced them with roses ordered from Palatine. W was released from this lady's service.

Well said Ann. Thank you.
What IÂve suspected long ago, and confirmed by both of you. "Dissolve" is the best word to describe the Dr. Huey root stock did in my soil as well.

Would the ARS help to influence this matter on the east coast? Just a suggestion, and not meant to start a useless debate as I think big, representative organization like this can put an issue on near future agenda that their members can educate the public of which stocks grow well where, regionally.

"Lots of fertilizer and spray to force growth ($$$$$) that wouldn't do that well in their soils without pampering."

Ann, this is not even the case. They fertilize the roses twice a year - this is in their contract. Otherwise they do spraying and pruning. Spraying they start in mid-April here in the coastal region - way, way too late. Earlier, extra visit costs a lot of money. Funny thing is that they wanted to prune the roses back to 2 feet or so and mound them in November, when, first, we usually have one of the best flushes in the year, and second, we had quite a bit of rain so mounding would have guaranteed lots of canker, rot and die back. I was truly flabbergasted: I would have never dreamed of an old and well-considered company not looking at local climates and adjust accordingly.

Geeez, that urge to winter protect has to be a plasmid that some folks get in their genes and can't get rid of.
So...prune 'em back, who cares about all the blooms that might come from buds in late November? Even my much-colder-than-your-area roses bloom well into late November.

When did 'rose growers' forget the lessons of the early 1900s and 1800s? There's a lot more common sense in the old books than in modern books that all sound alike.

I'm not sure how much of it was ever written down.

For example, it is commonly said here to stop fertilizing roses somewhere around 6-8 weeks before the first frost date. Somebody once asked me for a written source for this information, and after looking in every rose book I possess, I drew a blank. It wasn't in Buist, it wasn't in Ellwanger, it wasn't in Rockwell, it wasn't in Beales - it just wasn't anywhere. At this point I can't even begin to remember where I picked it up.

It made me aware that there are certain pieces of information that I take for granted that aren't necessarily out there, and without asking and getting feedback, it's impossible to identify them.

Well, some of you here have succeeded marvelously in thoroughly trashing Witherspoon Roses -- intimating to the world that they're a den of moronic money-grubbing garden conspirators bent on duping the public by foisting Dr Huey rootstock on any/everyone who's not quite so luminously rose savvy as you are.

There is not a 'Witherspoon' brand; they simply retail roses that are produced by the same mega-producer(s) that other major retailers also use. I've found, however, that Witherspoon takes great care in selecting the inventory that they pass on to their customers. Their bareroots sell for a couple of dollars more than J&P, Edmunds', et al., but their quality is generally far superior.

And yes, they operate a successful rose garden maintenance service. The few Witherspoon client gardens I've visited in NC have been wonderful -- year after year after year. They could hardly have remained in business as long as they have years if the charges leveled above were accurate.

Those of you who choose to go outside the US economy to purchase your roses have every right to do so. But must you also do everything in your power to deep-six the few remaining American providers?

Vee

I bought roses from W in the past, and also came visit their operation in Durham, NC in Â94. There was no question about their bare root quality which was the best I saw. But I had to drop them after year after year inquiring about the other rootstock that never came. Unlike the mass producers, W interfaces with customers directly, and could have chosen to add more varieties of rootstock per customerÂs request, but W hasnÂt, and IÂd like to know any other reasons why. Roses were expensive to maintain and to replace on Dr. Huey in my acidic soil. All WÂs clients know about the maintenance/replacement cost, but not the cause as Ceterum pointed out.

I donÂt even have a choice when looking for Multiflora rootstock; IÂm forced to import them myself. So you see the frustration there - so much for supporting unwanted and unperformed home grown products. We become savvy (if thatÂs the right word) after years of experience and observation of what works in our garden. The question remains largely on the mass producers in the U.S. however.

The Dr. Huey's in Sonoma County, California didn't get the memo that their roots were supposed to dissolve, and the native soils have a pH of 5.5. While I don't doubt you've had problems with budded roses, I seriously doubt Dr. Huey's roots dissolve because of the pH. We can't kill it with an ax. Every budded rose that comes in contact with my soils produces a Dr. Huey by root division. None of that means Dr. Huey isn't a dud in your area. There must be another explanation.

What about the growers around Tyler Texas? I bought a Tiffany locally. I had my retailer call and ask the wholesaler what the rootstock was and the answer was Multiflora. Texas used to be a big center for growing roses. Has something happened to change that?

Witherspoon could have done the same as Regan does in California - every year they have several roses grafted on multiflora, ordered from Canada. Regan does it for pleasing customers with wider selection. W could do it to provide the rootstock customers looking for in the eastern part of the country.
Maryl, you may know more than I do because as far as I know growers in and around Tyler, Texas also graft onto dr. Huey - except for the own root vendors. I saw some of these grafted and heavily virused roses in a nursery in town and that nursery ordered their roses from Texas.

In the US I know only of Steve in Wisconsin who grafts on multiflora and his roses do very well for me.

Cass, I do not know what to tell you but when I replant a rose grafted on Dr. Huey(let's say after 3 years) we basically don't see any roots and I am always amazed how that rose was able to survive at all. Meanwhile if I must replant a rose grafted on multiflora my husband has a hard time to get the plant out due to the massive roots.

Europe grafts mostly on varieties of Rosa canina because of even greater cold hardiness than Rosa multiflora. It is uncommon in North America, though I know of at least two growers who are using it: Jan Vershuren, a wholesale grower in British Columbia, and Palatine, who has started using it a little from about the time they made the growing agreement with Kordes.
The article gives a little further information half way through.
Steve.

Here is a link that might be useful: A Visit with BC Rosemen

elks, multiflora is cane-hardy into zone 3.

Possibly the deep-rootedness of canina is the reason it is popular in Europe with growers who don't irrigate.

Commercial growers around Tyler have traditionally used multiflora grown by cuttings. I believe this area has sandy, maybe acid, soils. I don't know what is going on there currently.

OK, all this from just wanting to know more about rootstock! Since I have alkaline soil, should I assume that Dr. Huey will do better or would it be best to try multiflora also?

Given that canina is a much happier grower here than multiflora, I would be happy to have canina as a rootstock choice.

I do wonder why Rosa setigera has never been a commonly used rootstock. When I learn budding, I will give it a try.

I thought that R. canina liked sweet soils.

Estevinho has alkaline soil.

Yeah, our pH is way up at about 7.2. In terms of alkalinity, it is only worth mentioning given the generalization that eastern US has acid soil. If you look at a soil map, you will see pockets of lime both in the highlands and in low areas that get soil from the eroding limestone highlands, and spend time under water when glaciers recede and thawing waterways are dammed with debris. (We've been out of water for thousands of years now.)

I don't know what Rosa canina's optimal pH range is. I've seen it happy on both sides of neutral, but more extreme than that, I can't say.

Rosa multiflora on the other hand, looks unhappy in soil that is barely above neutral. How is this unhappiness manifest? The foliage shows signs of chlorosis. The plants are also more prone to powdery mildew than they are in more acidic soil. We see the same behavior in roses with considerable multiflora ancestry.

To be honest, we haven't had a problem with roses budded onto multiflora. Maybe the roses run off onto their own roots faster than they otherwise would, but this is speculation.

I think dog rose can take rather alkaline soil; I've seen it growing wild in Indiana near lime quarries, and it grows very happily in England.

My neighborhood has silts tending toward neutral; redbuds, which dislike acid, grow wild. Multiflora grows vigorously, except there's a patch that is always chlorotic because it grows next to a concrete curb, which of course is limey. I haven't seen much to choose between mf. and Dr. Huey in my garden.

So then ordering from Pickering is pretty much out of the question if you have alkaline soil, right?

I don't remember what you said your pH is. I'm assuming it is in a range similar to mine. We have no trouble with roses budded onto multiflora. Pickering is our favorite source of roses. If I could get roses on some other rootstock that I was confident would be better in some way, maybe I would.

7.7 before I amended it. Not sure now. I saw another alkaline poster, in another thread, who said they had no luck with multiflora so I wondered.

7.7 is way higher than 7.2 because it's a logarithmic scale. I would avoid multiflora rootstock unless you are curious to see what happens. Roots of multiflora are not very good at scrounging iron in alkaline soils.

So then which vendors would it be best to avoid? Thanks.

If the question is "which vendors sell roses grafted on R. multiflora rootstock", then the answer is Palatine Roses, Pickering Nursery (Pickering has some own-root roses now), Hortico, and Wisconsin Roses.

While most of the local farmers in and around Tyler Texas have gotten out of the rose growing business there are still one or two around. Nix roses is an independent grower that still uses/sells multiflora. I think Tate Roses also has multiflora. Certified roses has moved their growing operation to California and Arizona, but they still graft (bud?) a few 100,000 onto multiflora. Certified is currently experimenting with using Multiflora on some of their roses in their growing fields in Arizona. If you check around you might find a source inside the U.S. that has multiflora rootstock, especially on the older varieties.