The rose sold in the U.S. as Irene Watts is Pink Gruss an Aachen.
It was so-mis-identified by Beales -- an error which he now does not dispute.
I have seen my own Pink Gruss an Aachen (purchased as Irene Watts) sport back to Gruss an Aachen, so that identity is pretty solid.

The rose he is NOW selling as Irene Watts is a different rose.
It was found somewhere, given to Beales, and by him identified.
He says this is the "real" Irene Watts.
I do not know if there has been any other study, tho I am sure that it has not (as yet) been sent to the U.S.

So, AFAIK, the roses Beales now sells as Irene Watts and Pink Gruss an Aachen are in fact not the same rose.

Jeri

Thanks Jeri - that is also what I had understood; would know like to see them both!

In fact Joanna, if you GET that Beales I.W., I hope you can get photos of it for us. I would LOVE to know what it really looks like!

Jeri

I grow Irene Watts from Peter Beales. I have always thought it looked a little like the Austin Rose Evelyn, but with smaller blooms. I will take some pictures during the next bloom cycle or when it stops raining ..... it has been raining for 4 weeks now. I We have gotten 5 times as much rain as in a normal summer. So pray for some sunshine for me and probably Jon in England too!!! Otherwise we will have to start building and Ark!

Why, THANK YOU Cup-Shaped. I'd appreciate that.
But how long have you had it? Is this the "new" Beales I.W.? Or the FORMER Beales I.W.(aka, Pink Gruss an Aachen)?????
I ask, because your description of it doesn't sound very "China-like."

Sorry about your rain but (and this has been said before) I sure wish you could send some of it our way.
Our roses have not really had rain to wash them for a such a long time now, they do suffer.
And washing and watering with our alkaline tapwater isn't at all the same.

Jeri

Gruss an Achen from Texas

{{gwi:290465}}

Irene Watts from Serbia

{{gwi:290467}}

Riku, as variable as that rose is, I'd still think the bottom one was Gruss an Aachen, or at least it looks more like the ones I've had. The top one doesn't look that much like blooms I've gotten.

--Ron

Thanks Ron, I had deep suspicions about the top one due to a lack of pink and lack of fullness ... Austin would never have called it an English rose with that low a petal count ... the real Irene Watts I have never seen, and I suspect though have not asked Radoslav as to the origins of his, it is probably Beales' error again - like the ones I make ... hahahaha.

Here are two blooms, spring '07, from one of 2 plants purchased a decade ago as Irene Watts.
This is the first time it's reverted, but it does demonstrate its origin and real identity.
{{gwi:290469}}

Jeri (SoCalif)

Thanks Jeri, for the photos, although I am now confused...are you saying that your Pink Gruss has reverted after 10 years to Irene Watts?

Thanks
Joanna

No.
The rose which was sold in the U.S. as Irene Watts was in fact Pink Gruss an Aachen
(a pink sport of Gruss an Aachen).
It was mis-identified (by Beales actually) and the error spread world-wide.

My Pink Gruss an Aachen was purchased as Irene Watts.
This year, after a decade or so, it reverted to the ORIGINAL Gruss an Aachen.
The fact that it could revert to Gruss an Aachen proves that it Pink Gruss an Aachen.

It was never Irene Watts. That was a mistake of identification.

The rose which Beales NOW offers as Irene Watts is a different rose altogether.
I understand that it is a Found Rose.
I have not heard who identified it as Irene Watts.
I know of no one who has actually seen it, or even a good picture of it.

Jeri

Thanks Jeri - clear now! Are you saying also then that all the pictures on HelpMeFind of Irene Watts are in fact Pink Gruss an Aachen?!

Either way, seems like Irene Watts will be a pretty little rose. Do you think it it likely to be good here?

Thanks
Joanna

Joanna, hardly anyone in the US knows anything about the rose Beales currently sells as Irene Watts. Pink Gruss is an excellent compact rose that likes hot weather.

Michael is correct. We simply do not know.
We don't know if this rose is Irene Watts, or even if it really is a China. But I am sure curious!

As to the pix on HMF, I believe you will see a notation there which tells you that these are all photos of Pink Gruss an Aachen. Which they are.

If we ever obtain a good photo of Beales' new candidate for the position, we can put that on HMF instead. But you know, its been a few years now, and I wonder why there is STILL no photo of it. If it is actually a China, it must surely have bloomed by now!

Jeri

Well, the plot thickens... thanks for the input.

I bought my supposedly Irene Watts rose from Peter Beales in November 2003. I thought I got the china rose from 1896! It did however not look very much like a china ... Growth habit and foliage is very modern. And Like I said I always thought it looked a little like the Austin rose Evelyn, only with smaller flowers.

I went outside to take a look at my IWorGAA....lol but it does not have any flowers right now, no wonder considering the lack of sun and heat lately...I took this picture which really show nothing?

{{gwi:290470}}

We will have to wait until it flowers again it usually gives a good fall flush.

But I must say that it looks very much like the rose Jeri pictured as PGAA, that reverted back to PAA!

The rose it reverted back to does however NOT look like the rose I grow as GAA!!!!!!!!! To make the confusion even worse it looks like the rose Riku labeled as GAA from Serbia!!! My
GAA flowers has the rosette shape, whereas the rose Jeri says it a reversion to GAA is loosely cupshaped.

The Rose I grow as GAA:

{{gwi:290471}}

Cupshaped -- It'll drive you nuts, won't it?

No -- My spring sport doesn't look EXACTLY like the original Gruss.
But I think it's more like Gruss than it is like Pink Gruss.
I have not tried to propagate it -- I think it may be a temporary, weather-related change.
If it occurs again, I might, but you know, it would STILL be a virused plant, whatever it was.
I'm not sure it's worth it.

I'd STILL like to see the true 19th-Century China, assuming it still really exists. :-)

Jeri

I may misunderstand you cupshapedroses, but my Irene Watts (labeled as such) from Serbia looks like your GAA so I would say mine is mislabeled. But my labeled GAA is being questioned as to whether it is GAA - by default it is so different from what is commonly held to be GAA that the belief is it something totally different ... the cool thing is I have another GAA but from Pickering that is recovering from a bad winter - can't find a picture - that I will use as a final arbitrator.

The GAA from Texas (labeled as such) in the picture is from another vendor.

So my question to me is who is my second fake GAA - it is definitely a floribunda without question in my mind.

Anybody need a shot of vitamin B12 ?????

Yes it really is confusing! This is excactly the same story again as the work I did to find the real Souvenir D Alphonse Lavalle. One time the two roses (even 3 roses) have been confused and propagated and spread so a lot of people (That relied on the credibility of a renowned rosarian ) who thought they were getting the Real/Right rose ACTUALLY got the WRONG rose. So like IW and PGAA we end up having 2 roses. Some think they are growing IW, others will think they grow PGAA. But who really knows who are what?

This is why we need photos of all the anatomical parts of the roses so they can be compared and distinguished from each other. So yes one day it would be nice to have pictures
of IW and PGAA side by side like Joanna asked for. But like you say Jeri ...that is if the (Real ) China Rose Irene Watts is not extinct.

I will picture my rose when it blooms!!

Yes Riku I say that my GAA looks very much the same as your Rose labeled Irene Watts from Serbia! I will not draw any conclusions as to who of us have the mislabeled rose ...

Here are the leaves for the records, both look the same to my old eyes.

This is the leaves off the Texas GaA

{{gwi:290472}}

This is the leaves off the Serbian Irene Watts

{{gwi:290474}}

I live in Japan.
I have the rose which Beales NOW offers as Irene Watts.
I ordered some in 2005 and got them in 2006.
Each rose has a tag saying Hybrid China Rose (True) IRENE WATTS.
The word true sounds great, but I don't like it in parentheses.
I have some photos.
I want to post them.
Please tell me how I can post photos on this forum.

Akira

Akira,

I was intrigued by a previous post you made on the subject of 'Irene Watts' (link below).

How does the Beales (True) 'Irene Watts' compare with the photos of 'Carnation'? Do you continue to think that those two may be same rose?

I'm anxious to see your photos & am hoping that someone here can give you guidance on posting them.

Vee

Here is a link that might be useful: Previous Irene Watts Thread

No one has mentioned this yet, but all five of my Pink Gruss an Aachen's are virtually thornless. This is not true of my Original Gruss an Aachen, which is thorned, though not heavily.

If Irene Watts is supposed to be at least moderately thorned, then that would be an easy way to determine if you have the true IW or the pink sport of Gruss.

Riku, my original Gruss has sometimes produced blooms that look like your first pic. And your second pic looks like Pink Gruss.

Randy

Remember two things about the Faux Irene Watts:

1. Pink Gruss an Aachen is very, very changeable.
Its color and form change wildly throughout the year, even in my own garden --
to the point that, did I not know they were the same plant, I wouldn't believe it.
2. All of the U.S. nurseries have the "Faux" plant.
The real one appears not to have been in the U.S. in this century.
If we have it, we probably have it floating around under a study name somewhere.

Jeri

Well, I have today ordered budwood from Beales of (apparently)the real china Irene Watts. It should arrive here next week, go off and be grafted and then in about a year's time - maybe - there may be a bloom for me to photograph and post here. Thanks in the meantime for the intriguing discussion.

Joanna

Time to make a new tag for Irene....er Grussie...er whatever her name is. Anyway I always wondered why that rose looks different throught the year. The Plant I bought as Pink Gruss does not look the same as the plant I bought as Irene but they are very similar. Anybody know if there is a virus free copy of this bloom machine for sale?

Irene....er Grussie...er whatever her name is.

*** You know, I sort of like "Grussie" better than 'Pink Gruss an Aachen.'

It really IS very very changeable.
I was once DQ'd at a rose show because some of my PGAA blooms looked different from some of the other ones in the same bouquet.
I believe I lost my temper just a tad, and called the judge something like the North-facing end of a South-bound donkey.
Which, when I thought about it later, was a disgraceful thing to have done (but quite satisfying at the time).

Jeri

Akira -

The SOILS forum on GW has a "how to post pictures" post in their FAQs.
The link is below.

Janelle

Here is a link that might be useful: How to post pictures

I have "Irene Watts" and Gruss an Achen so can't compare Pink Gruss with Irene. For a long time I thought the petals were so different on Irene that it couldn't be a sport of Gruss. But Irene and Gruss ARE so changeable. Irene can have dahlia like petals or rounded fatter petals. Here are some pics of my Irene and Gruss just to show how changeable they are. That is one thing I like about them..they are full of surprises.

Irene as she looked for the first few years I had her:

{{gwi:290476}}

another look:{{gwi:290477}}

{{gwi:290478}}

{{gwi:290479}}\

at Photobucket">

Here's my Gruss an Achen and it is all the same rose:

{{gwi:290480}}

{{gwi:290481}}

{{gwi:262419}}

If you notice though, Gruss an Achen always has rounded petals, while Irene can have thin petals.

Linda

There's really no doubt at all anymore that the rose sold all over as 'Irene Watts' is actually Pink Gruss an Aachen.

The only mystery left in this particular area is whether or not the "real" I.W. has been found now.
I tend to take most identifications of found roses with a large grain of salt, but I hope
we'll find that the rose in question is AT LEAST something resembling a China.

Jeri (SoCalif)

Go to this link on Beales' site and he has all three roses as bloom photos ... good luck on Irene Watts because that flower looks like the photos above ... then he has PGAA and GAA photos

Here is a link that might be useful: Beales the last correct word???

I'm with Jeri on this one. Trying to identify one or the other by looking at the blooms is not going to get it done. The blooms are just too changeable. In order to really identify them you need to look at the historic records of the foliage, prickles, and all the other parts of the plant. These areas of growth are more stable and will let you identify what you have. The people who are really good at plant identity always look at the plant and not the bloom.

AKIRA'S IRENE WATTS PHOTOS:

I've put most of Akira's photos together in a collage, so that you can see them better.
I will go downstairs tomorrow, and take a look at canes and prickles on my Pink GaA --
but to start with, I am a little uncomfortable about those fat, round buds,
They don't precisely scream "China" at me.
I've sent these also to some other folks to look at, as well.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/JeriJennings/AKIRASIRENEW.jpg

Jeri Jennings
(SoCalif)

Jeri, thank you for your beautiful work!

Janelle, thank you for your posting.
As you see, Jeri helped me with posting photos.

Vee, thank you for your interest on my previous
post.

Ladies and Gentlemen,
what do you think about the photos?

Akira

I still see only 'Gruss an Aachen' when I look at your photos of Beales' rose, Akira. When did you acquire the plant from him?

At least Nancy Steen's 'Irene Watts' is obviously not 'Gruss an Aachen'! The bloom form of the Huntington "Carnation" appears superficially similar in that shot even though the color is very different; where are you trying to go with that comparison, Jeri?

Linda, I agree with you that the petals on Pink Gruss are most often different looking than those on Orig Gruss. You described it very well. I used to question if PGaA really was a sport. But over the years, it became apparent to me that the plant form of the mature plant is exactly the same, as is the fragrance, foliage, & canes. Only the petal form, their color, and the thorn count was different (I suppose a sport can have three variances from its original). Your photos are beautiful and look just like my Orig Gruss & my Pink Gruss.

Randy

are you trying to go with that comparison, Jeri?

*** No. It was Akira who caught that similarity.
But I think it interesting.
However, if you go to the "Carnation" photos on HMF:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=995&tab=10

You will see that the color of the Huntington rose may not be typical.
FWIW, in the past, the Huntington's Teas and Chinas have grown in quite deep shade,
which may "skew" color comparisons from that garden.

Jeri

Isn't anyone going to mention the most obvious thing about all those roses proposed as 'Irene Watts,' namely that none of them has foliage even vaguely resembling any China we're familiar with to date? Isn't that a clue that this identification might be questionable? Not that it isn't a nice rose, etc. etc. but seven leaflets, the foliage quilted?...please, anyone, post shots of Chinas with foliage like that. The parent of Irene Watts, Madame Laurette Messimy, looks like a China. Budding to a vigorous rootstock could make a big difference, but it generally changes size, not leaf texture and shape. My 2¢.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mme. Laurette Messimy

stefanb8,I got the plant in February 2006.

I also see only 'Gruss an Aachen'
when I look at my Beales' (true) Irene Watts!

As to the color difference, anntn6b gave me
very important information.

Her Nancy Steen's book has black and white photos.
Mine has color photos.

Maybe the photos in my book were colorized
with the automated colorizing programs which
anntn6b mentioned in her posting.

Jeri, thank you for your interest!
And thank you for your information about
the Huntington's Teas and Chinas.

berndoodle, I felt just the same thing
as you mentioned when I first saw the leaves of
my TRUE Irene Watts.
They are not the leaves of China roses!

"Carnation" has China-like leaves.
Quite similar to Madame Laurette Messimy's.

I got "Carnation" this spring.
I also have Madame Laurette Messimy.
And I have Archduke Charies which I suppose
Irene Watts' pollen parent.
I'm going to watch these three varieties closely.

Akira

I also see only 'Gruss an Aachen'
when I look at my Beales' (true) Irene Watts!

*** That was my thinking, when I examined your photos Akira.
Darn!

Jeri

What this conversation has done is to make me want to buy more plants! All these great pictures! It's such a fine grower and blooms so often that I have moved it all around the yard over the years. Both GAA and Pink GAA started out in pots, lived in the front, on the side and in the back. They did fantastic wherever they were. Now they are planted by the entrance-It's a shame they don't have much scent but they make up for it in blooming ability and disease resistance in my yard. Isn't the name translated Greetings to Aachen? I like to think they greet everyone.

Thanks Randy and Kitty. Both are fine roses aren't they?
Linda