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African Violets

chimera parentage

10 years ago

does the master database have the parentage of chimeras?

I broke a leaf off moon child chimera, and was wondering who da mamma was ... cuz I could not resist planting the leaf to sees what I gets.

damn, this is fun again.

ÃÂ.ÃÂ --~

dave

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Comments (12)

irina_co
10 years ago
Before we had a list of registered chimeras...now I turned the avsa.org site upside down - and couldn't find it...
PRO
Whitelacey
10 years ago
Dave,

Chimeras are rogue off-spring of other types of blooms, usually fantasies which tend to be unstable. (You know drinking and that sort of thing). If you start a chimera from a leaf, I understand you will get a bloom of the dominant color of the chimera. I saw a leaf-grown plant from 'Yukako' and it was a blue blossom. And a beautiful plant.

Linda

And, yes, it is fun. You never know what you are going to get- frustration, disappointment, not the variety you bought, insects, mites, dirty nails with just the occasional victory to lure you into more of the same....
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You're welcome. I've read about "sports" in roses and other plants, and cases of "sports" reverting back and forth. If the change originated from a genetic mutation, the odds against going back and forth (i.e. a change in the DNA sequence at the exact same point, and then again back to normal, and then again to the "sport") are astronomical. What's more likely, in my mind, is that the undifferentiated cells in the meristem (the part of plant tissue which can be induced to form just about anything else) must undergo differentiation, which involves mechanisms regulating gene expression. These mechanisms involve how the DNA is folded, which molecules attach and where, etc. which result in some genes having "easier access" for transcription than others. And this process is more prone to both "errors" and "reversions" than actual changes in DNA sequence. What's interesting to me is how this explains moss roses, which are claimed to have originated as "sports" among centifolias and Quatre Saisons. The ancestral species of damasks includes R. fedtschenkoana, which has similar mossy growths. Most damasks lack this phenotype, but the genes for it are still there -- perhaps genes from R. gallica and/or R. moschata interfere with this expression, but in the first mossy "sports", those interfering genes were "silenced" or otherwise reduced in expression, allowing the effects of "moss" to reappear. Centifolias are thought to be a complex mix of roses, including damasks, and so it seems reasonable to assume that they similarly inherited genes responsible for the "mossiness" in R. fedtschenkoana as well as the "interfering" genes from the other species, and so also contained the potential for re-expression if their "interfering" genes were similarly silenced or reduced in expression. The further breeding of mosses from these sports allowed for selection of higher degrees of "mossiness" than is found in R. fedtschenkoana. It would be interesting to see if healthier moss roses could be bred by using R. fedtschenkoana with existing moss roses, since the wild species doesn't seem to be as prone to mildew as the domesticated moss roses are. Off-topic, but if the proposed parentage of damasks is correct, perhaps breeders can "re-make" damasks by putting R. fedtschenkoana pollen onto the OGR 'Dupontii' which is claimed to be a R. gallica X R. moschata (or vice versa) cross. Or, perhaps even more interestingly, one could try using one of the purple gallicas with "Secret Garden Musk Climber" instead of pure R. moschata, and selfing the offspring, hoping to find a purple-flowered repeat-blooming plant, and then put R. fedtschenkoana pollen on that, and selfing those offspring. Maybe we could get a repeat-blooming purple-flowered damask from scratch. :-) ~Christopher
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never quit asking.. why, why, why .... but don't get frustrated when you cant get an answer .. short of a PhD ... most hosta can not self pollinate ... as i understand.. and i ain't got no PhD ... IF YOU REMOVE THE POLLEN thingees ... so that the bees cant land and self pollinate ... i dont want to argue the exceptions ... but feel free if you want too ... sit down .... have a beer .. and think about this ... can you and spouse predict what the kids will look like??? probably not ... so why do you think there is an answer about hosta .... as you note... all the genes of mom.. dad.. grandparents.. great grandparents.. etc ... will be involved ... the key .. as i understand it.. is to have a breeding goal ... if your goal is a cordate .. heart shaped leaf ... then any seed that comes up montana shaped or lance shaped.. should be 'culled' .... you suffer as i did ... perhaps.. with not having a goal ... once you establish your goal .. then choosing mom and dad.. and researching g-parents ... becomes a smaller job ... if you are shooting for hadspen blue size and shape ... no need to use swoosh or don quixote as a parent.. or if you have to use a lance shaped mom ... then you can get rid of all the lance shaped babes.. since you will not be moving toward your goal .... ron livingston once told me.. in a manner so simple.. the light went on ... start by developing the green version of what you want... once you develop the size and shape ... its just too easy to take that pollen to a streaked mom .. to add the edge or center .... in other words... trying to accomplish the WHOLE goal in one cross is ... as you know... mind bending ... another example .... you want a blue mouse ears sized blue ... with white edge... but you want it corrugated.. bumpy ... you might cross BME with something else of similar size. but corrugated .... until you get the size and texture you want .... and then years later ... add it to a streaker ... am i making any sense ???? i guess a new post might be.. what are the list of characteristics to consider ... ken PS: take the names i mention to hosta library to see what i am trying to say .... open 2 browsers .. it might help ...
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bragu_DSM 5
Original Author
10 years ago
Thanks for looking!

I: how's DH? On the mend, we hopes. Make him walk!

L. Oh no, another picture (yukako) to find and salivate over. I didn't think blue was possible. It has to be a purple ... ha!

Gonna have to get FC. Is it mac compatible?

ÃÂ.ÃÂ

dave
PRO
Whitelacey
10 years ago
Dave,
In the wacky world of Horticulture, light purple is called blue. Don't ask me why, I've never been able to find an answer. We Hort nerds like to blame the botanists....
Don't know about the mac but there is a little bell ringing in my head that says it is not FC compatible. I may have read it somewhere...or just I'm just making stuff up.

Linda

Here is a link that might be useful: Yukako
bragu_DSM 5
Original Author
10 years ago
that's crazy talk ...

FC compatible ... who in their right mind ...

Yup, hear it all the time. Then they go and change the operating system (linex based) and all your old database programs don't work no more.

Best you can do is make a giant PDF file, and then hope you can cut and paste

Think of all the stuff you have stored on plants, heights, weights, progeny, those that go MIA. sports

And that's just me keeping track of things.

But, again I digress.

Not mac compatible?

that's crazy talk

which is why I'm nuts.

wanna play frisbie with some of my old floppy disks?

ÃÂ.ÃÂ --~

dave
PRO
Whitelacey
10 years ago
Tough morning???
irina_co
10 years ago
TGIF, by the way...

DH is getting out of the hospital tomorrow - now part of his aorta is made of Teflon.
Yukako is absolutely unique. It is a very stable chimera, it doesn't turn blue.Plus it is an easy hardy plant. If you root the suckers - you get true Yukako, another chimera with green stripes on white and another chimera with dark blue stripes on light blue petals - you really need to look - otherwise it not evident.

More of it - it is a chimera - that sometimes gives you a chimera from the leaf.

It holds the flowers for long long time - lots of AVs with green flowers do - and IMHO - even if you grow small amount of AVs - it should be one of them.
I.
bragu_DSM 5
Original Author
10 years ago
I.

How can you grow a small amount of AVs?

Nobody (hardly) can grow just one.

Hmm, I might have a new potato chip jingle ... if I could just lay my hands on the brand I am thinking of ...

Yukako dave
PRO
Whitelacey
10 years ago
Dave-King of the Puns. :)

Irina,

Best to DH and thank God for modern medicine.

Linda
1beautylover2012
10 years ago
Dave, does this type have a symmetrical foliage and sticking our flowers stems? Could you post a picture of your plant, please.
Polina.
bragu_DSM 5
Original Author
10 years ago
This what my chimera looks like, I suspect the parent had a blue/purple flower. It is very sweet ... I can hardly wait to decapitate it!

ÃÂ.ÃÂ --~
1beautylover2012
10 years ago
Thank you Dave, it's a gorgeous flower! Do you have any chance a photo of the foliage - I to be sure that it's a symmetrical foliage and the flowers are sticking up, not falling down.
Polina.

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