Robertz6, I suggest you post on the Tomato forum and see if your problem can be diagnosed. Were the plants diseased? (What are the symptoms?) Did you have smaller harvests harvests without apparent other problems? Did you have big green plants but no tomatoes? Or maybe poor-tasting tomatoes? Have you changed the varieties you grow? Which varieties did you grow? Do you grow other veggies besides tomatoes, and if so, what veggies and did they have problems as well? (And if not other veggies, have you had problems with other plants in the garden?) Have you had your soil tested lately? Providing your location would also give a clue about possible weather problems. [Don't answer me here: I know a little bit, but there are real experts on the Tomato forum.]

Well, what you have there is a link to a Powerpoint presentation by Doug O'Brien at Cabrillo College. Sadly, all it proves is that Doug O'Brien of Cabrillo College doesn't know what he is talking about if he thinks you get a downward pH adjustment of 0.1 every time you put a ton of lime on an acre of soil. Neither calcium nor sulfate has a direct effect on soil pH and that's all that gypsum is...calcium and sulfate. The only time you will have a downward shift in the pH due to gypsum application is when it is applied to a sodic soil (i.e. SAR greater than 15) which has an elevated pH due to that sodium imbalance. (On a side note, very often the text book rise in pH does not accompany sodic soil conditions) Only when sodicity causes an elevation of the pH does gypsum help decrease that pH. And even in those cases the effect is indirect and has to do with improved soil structure allowing for the leaching of sodium rather than any reactions that calcium goes into. If you need to lower your soil pH, elemental sulfur is your better bet. As far as why it is important...it is primarily a nutrient availability issue. If the pH is too high or too low, fewer nutrients will be available for a number of reasons. Also, if it gets really low you can start having toxicity issues. I guess if you want to get into it more we can start a new thread.

This is a thought provoking and valuable thread. Although I highly doubt we'll be in this house when all of our landscaping has reached full maturity, we did plan things for the future. All of the trees were planted taking into consideration their ultimate size and suitability for where they were planted. Perennials and shrubs are mostly in their places now and should be happy for decades. Our hardscaping work has been built to last. Our house was built in 1938 and has seen landscaping come and go. By the time we bought it though, it was so neglected (and paved over) that we had to raze everything to bare dirt. The only shade that existed was that thrown by the house. Beds that are in full sun now will eventually be left to part sun/full shade as the trees mature. Right now, our irrigation system is designed to support maximum happiness in full sun conditions. But we use minimal water to support my habit. It's a series of drip lines and directional sprinklers that can be moved around as things progress and extablish. This elaborate system requires maintenance right now, but eventually only a small amount of our space will require them at all. I can expect several more years of experimentation until my sun/shade patterns are finally set. By then, it will probably be time to hand over the shovel to the next owner. I can tell you this though, our next (and probably last) home will have all the bones in place. At my age, I never ever ever want to undertake a project like this again. If you hear me say otherwise, feel free to slap me until I come to my senses. Steven

Randall, based on your location, here's the government poop on your soil (see below the demarcation). I'm guessing it's not red clay, but rather has some yellow clay in it. Does it look like the picture at the bottom of this post (farm near Raleigh)? I'd recommend fescue if you want a year-round green lawn. If your soil doesn't crust and get hard during the summer, you can use lime. Otherwise, use gypsum to break up the hard clay surface and Milorganite when it comes time to plant fescue seed. You should never have to dethatch, but aerating once or twice a year can help OM get deeper and work faster after you have a lawn going. You actually can top dress with granular lime right after seeding and don't worry about the nitrogen reaction. it won't matter that much. I have used peat moss or vermiculite as a top dressing also, but I have a commercial level Hunter irrigation system to keep that moist with regular spritzes. Fescue doesn't like to be covered too much, and even good seed can take three weeks to germinate (sprout). Straw helps, but I sometimes use a very lightweight insect cloth in 100-foot rolls to cover seed for the first three weeks. As soon as the grass is popping up, pull that off so the new sprouts don't "damp off." Look for the freshest seed you can find, direct from Oregon. Several sources on the internet when it comes to buying seed. Meanwhile, yes by all means find worms. I can't tell you how nice it is to see piles 4-inches in diameter of wormcastings in my yard this time of year, all over the place. One worm near a Pro-Spray head was about 10-inches long. He was a monster. We have little "cocoons" or egg thingees all over the raised vegetable garden, which has tons of azaleas, camellias and mountain laurels interspersed around additional raised beds for those good ol' veggies. We actually had tomatoes still two weeks ago! Anyway, the cocoons are future worms. Google earthworm images on the net so you can learn to recognize them. If you find them in the woods or anywhere, grab them and put them in your yard. Worms will find a way to organic material, even in clay soils, and they are indispensable. Good luck. ================================================= DURHAM SERIES The Durham series consists of deep, well drained moderately permeable soils formed in loamy residuum from acid crystalline rock. They are nearly level to sloping soils on broad ridges of the Piedmont. TAXONOMIC CLASS: Fine-loamy, siliceous, semiactive, thermic Typic Hapludults TYPICAL PEDON: Durham loamy sand--cultivated. (Colors are for moist soil unless otherwise stated.) Ap--0 to 8 inches; light brownish gray (10YR 6/2) loamy sand; weak coarse granular structure; very friable; medium acid; clear smooth boundary. (6 to 10 inches thick) BA1--8 to 13 inches; pale brown (10YR 6/3) loamy sand; weak coarse granular structure; very friable; strongly acid; clear smooth boundary. (4 to 10 inches thick) BA2--13 to 16 inches; pale brown (10YR 6/3) sandy loam; weak medium granular structure; friable, slightly brittle; strongly acid; clear smooth boundary. (0 to 4 inches thick) Bt1--16 to 25 inches; brownish yellow (10YR 6/6) sandy clay loam; moderate medium subangular blocky structure; friable, slightly sticky, slightly plastic; thin continuous clay films; strongly acid; clear smooth boundary. (8 to 10 inches thick) Bt2--25 to 36 inches; yellowish brown (10YR 5/8) heavy sandy clay loam, few fine and medium distinct (7.5YR 5/6) strong brown and yellowish red (5YR 4/6) mottles; moderate medium subangular blocky structure; friable, slightly sticky, slightly plastic; thin continuous clay films; strongly acid; gradual smooth boundary. (10 to 14 inches thick) Bt3--36 to 42 inches; mottled yellowish brown (10YR 5/8), strong brown (7.6YR 5/8), and yellowish red (5YR 5/8) sandy clay loam; weak medium subangular blocky structure; friable, slightly sticky, slightly plastic; thin patchy clay films on vertical faces of peds; few fine flakes of mica; strongly acid; gradual wavy boundary. (0 to 8 inches thick) BC--42 to 48 inches; mottled yellowish brown (10YR 5/4), strong brown (7.5YR 5/6), and yellowish red (5YR 5/8) sandy clay loam; weak medium subangular blocky structure; friable; few fine flakes of mica; few bodies of sandy loam; strongly acid; gradual wavy boundary. (5 to 12 inches thick) C--48 to 60 inches; mottled yellow, yellowish red, and pale brown saprolite that crushes to sandy loam; rock structure; friable; strongly acid. TYPE LOCATION: Wake County, North Carolina; five miles south of Rolesville, North Carolina, on county road 2227, 1/4 mile east of Bethany Baptist Church at junction of county road 1003; 50 feet north of road in cultivated field. RANGE IN CHARACTERISTICS: The thickness of the loamy horizons over saprolite range from 40 to more than 60 inches below the surface. Depth to bedrock is more than 5 feet. Coarse fragments range from 0 to 5 percent throughout. The soil is strongly acid or very strongly acid except where the surface has been limed. The A or Ap horizons have hues of 7.5YR, 10YR, and 2.5Y, value of 4 to 6, and chroma of 1 to 3. The BA horizon as hue of 10YR and 2.5Y, value of 6 to 8, chroma of 1 to 4. The A horizon is loamy coarse sand, loamy sand, sandy loam, or fine sandy loam. Where present, BA and BE horizons of sandy loam are pale brown, brownish yellow, brown, or light yellowish brown. The Bt horizon has hue of 7.5YR, 10YR, or 2.5Y, value of 5 to 8, and chroma of 4 to 8. It has few to common reddish, brownish, or yellowish mottles. Mottles in chroma of 2 or less are below the upper 20 inches of the Bt horizon. It is sandy clay loam or clay loam. Some pedons have lower Bt horizon of sandy clay, but the textural control section averages less than 35 percent clay. The BC horizon is similar in color to the Bt horizon except where the mottles are more contrasting. It is sandy loam, sandy clay loam, or clay loam. The B3 horizon contains weatherable minerals such as mica and feldspar. The C horizon is mottled or varicolored saprolite of acid crystalline rock. It is sandy loam or loamy sand. COMPETING SERIES: These are the Apison, Cahaba, Cowarts, Emporia, Euharlee, Granville, Hartsells, Kempsville, Linker, Marvyn, Nauvoo, Nectar, Pirum, Spadra, and Suffolk series. Apison, Hartsells, Linker, and Pirum soils have bedrock at depths less than 40 inches. Cahaba, Nauvoo, and Nectar soils have redder hue. Cowarts, Emporia, Kempsville, Marvyn, Spadra, and Suffolk soils lack weatherable minerals in the lower solum and have C horizons of Coastal Plain or old alluvial sediments. Euharlee soils contain more silt. Granville soils are higher in exchangeable aluminum. GEOGRAPHIC SETTING: Durham soils are on nearly level to sloping Piedmont uplands. Slopes are commonly 2 to 5 percent and range from 0 to 10 percent. Durham soils formed in residuum weathered from acid crystalline rocks, chiefly granite and gneiss. Mean annual precipitation is about 47 inches and the mean annual temperature is about 60 degrees F. near the type location. GEOGRAPHICALLY ASSOCIATED SOILS: These are the Appling, Cecil, Helena, Louisburg, Pacolet, Vance, Wedowee, and Worsham series. Appling, Cecil, Helena, Pacolet, Vance, Wedowee, and Worsham soils contain more clay and Louisburg soils contain less clay. Helena and Worsham soils have mottles with chroma 2 or less in the upper 20 inches of the control section and occupy lower positions on the landscape. DRAINAGE AND PERMEABILITY: Well drained; medium runoff; moderate permeability in upper subsoil and moderately slow permeability in lower subsoil. USE AND VEGETATION: About two thirds of the total acreage is in cultivation or pasture. The remainder is in mixed hardwood and pine. Common crops grown are corn, soybeans, tobaco, cotton, small grain, and vegetables. Native tree species include loblolly pine, short leaf pine, Viginia pine, sweetgum, whiteoak, red oak, post oak, hickory, and yellow-poplar. Understory species include flowering dogwood, persimmon, sourwood, red maple, eastern redbud, eastern redcedar, and common sassafras DISTRIBUTION AND EXTENT: Piedmont of North Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, and Virginia. The series is of moderate extent. MLRA SOIL SURVEY REGIONAL OFFICE (MO) RESPONSIBLE: Raleigh, North Carolina SERIES ESTABLISHED: Raleigh to New Bern Area, North Carolina, 1900. REMARKS: Durham soils were formerly placed in the Red-Yellow Podzolic great soil group. They ranged in texture of the B horizon from moderately-fine to fine, and in drainage from well drained to moderately well drained. This revision restricts the texture of the argillic horizon to fine-loamy and the drainage class to well drained. Here is a link that might be useful: Cecil soil (probably what you have)