I use the 3-1 and don't have these issues. Are you sure you are also watering enough and your soil is in good condition?

My thoughts on the preventive use of insecticides precludes me from commenting.
Enjoy your sterile environment!

Just a note, the 2-in-1 granules contain an unusually hazardous ingredient, Di-syston (disulfoton). It is much more toxic than other common insecticides.

Buford - We have a consistent watering routine and the soil is well drained and full of friendly earthworms!! We have never had problems until the 3-in-1. One other thing to note - about three years ago our pest control service applied Merit, in liquid form, to each plant. That season flower production sucked, big time!!

As for Karl and michaelg, can I just suggest that if you have nothing productive to say, refrain from inserting useless gibberish!!

Karl - if you have such a fantastic method of growing roses, try conveying it instead of being such a presumptuous, pompous a-hole.

michaelg - I have not "met" an insecticide that IS good for you to spend any quality time with. You need to spend your "Google-time" searching for THE answers, not the ones that appeal to your political beliefs!

bubbacat,
You may not like my methods either, but for the record, here is what I do.

I never use any of the combo products (3 in one; 2 in one, etc.). Instead, I occasionally spray a fungicide only product called Bayer Advanced Garden Disease Control for blackspot and mildew control. The only time I use an insectide is if there is a specific insect problem and no other way to handle it. Aphids, for instance, don't need to be treated with insecticide--there are other easy ways to handle that; a bad case of thrips, however, might need some insecticide treatment. For me, that means I almost never need an insecticide. For fertilizer, I use either RoseTone (or Plant-Tone) or a timed-release fertilizer like Osmocote which lasts for many months. In spring and mid-summer, I add alfalfa pellets (well-watered in) around the base of the roses.

That's about it--and I get healthy plants with nice blooms (unless I forget to spray the fungicide--which I have been known to do more than once).

Feel free to borrow any of those methods if you think they would help your roses--OK?

Kate

Since you've asked directly and taken the time to start a "proprietary" thread directly related to the subject, I am pleased share.

The disulfoton is scary. I kept some around in Louisiana for the cannas but eventually found Dipel did just as well. I was--frankly--relieved. In that hot, humid canna paradise I'd actually resorted to simply chopping them down and letting them start over when the insect damage became too bad--rather than use disulfoton.

There's been good stuff mentioned in the past about propiconazole's inhibitory effects on plant growth.

Uniconazole seems to have similar properties.

It doesn't seem a far stretch to me to imagine that tebuconazole might share some of those properties.

The thing is this though, does everyone report these type of problems after using the products you've mentioned? Would most people even notice?

Hard to say.

The excess buds on the HTs sound like too much fertilizer or too much of the wrong fertilizer. Are you using some kind of quick release fertilizer?

MichaelAT

Back off bubba-we don't need nor want your rude and obnoxious behavior.
You post we reply as we see fit-you don't like it ,go somewhere else.

bubbacat- can I ask what roses you are growing? Some HTs routinely show candelabra blooms (multiple buds on one stem) and if that doesn't please you, you should grow different types of HTs.

At any rate, I sincerely doubt an insecticide would cause a plant to grow differently. My guess is that you haven't been spraying (because you've counted onthe 3-1 to prevent disease) and that is effecting the blooms. IME the 3-1 will help with the disease, but if the conditions are still right for blacksot or mildew, you will get them if you don't spray.

And you should listen to MichaelG and karl, they have lots of experience.

We'd appreciate all feedback! - Bubbacat
``Just a note, the 2-in-1 granules contain an unusually hazardous ingredient, Di-syston (disulfoton). It is much more toxic than other common insecticides.''
Apology in order-
However very few of us use preventive insecticides as you also risk killing beneficial insects in OUR world.
Perhaps a basic course in rose growing would help.If you have inferior looking roses why blame anyone else? They really are easy to grow for anyone willing to listen and doesn't start out knowing it all.

It's OK bubbacat.

Those of us who actually know how to read --it's not that difficult-- understood clearly that your first post was one huge reservation about chemical use and that you were seeking honest answers and not looking to be the target of a Saturday afternoon snot-a-thon.

FWIW, I gave you the answers you need.

Best to you!

Sincerely,

MichaelAT

No need to call anyone names.Nor is there any need to insult others by implying you have superior intellect-
No reservation expressed about the use of preventive insecticides ,only the effect on ones roses.
My appreciated input is endless when its time to suffer not.lol

I'll put a link to my previous answer to your question in May. I hope the lack of a reply at that time did not indicate you thought my suggestions to be "useless."

We certainly need to remember to act like adults here. There is no cause for people to be rude and hateful toward one another. This forum is intended to be informational in a positive way and I for one would appreciate it if it were kept that way.
Now, back to the thread....
I started using Merit last year and don't feel guilty for doing so, though some would like it if I did I guess.
I first used it last year to combat thrips that were devastating my light colored blooms. I used it again one more time two months later in early August. I used it to address cucumber beetles infestation on my roses at that time, and it worked well.
I do not use it preventatively ever. Even I know that is a bad thing to do to the environment. I also don't ever use any of the combination products by Bayer or anyone else. If I need to combine chemicals, I make that decision and do it and am careful there as well. I would never combine a fungistat for PM or BS prevention/control with an insecticide as that would mean having to spray the entire plant so that the fungistat ingredient covers the whole bush. That's how you end up with insecticide over the entire bush, which is not a good thing to have. Doing that from what I gather, would destroy/deter beneficials that keep spider mites under control. And believe me, I would much rather put up with cucumber beetles than spider mites. They are much worse and do require using more chemicals like miticides to kill them. That is a vicious never-ending circle as far as I see it.
I currently grow about 225 roses, and I use less than one gallon to spray all my roses. I only spray the very top of the bushes, right on the buds and blooms themselves, and I do it later in the evening so the Merit will have time to dry to the bush while the beneficials are away for the night. Note, these applications of Merit are the only insecticide I have used the past two years. The two years earlier, before I knew better, I used the Bayer combination liquid you hook to the hose and spray the entire bush. When I did that, I ended up with spider mites in July when it got hot.
This year I sprayed Merit the first of May for the appearance of thrips.
I sprayed last week for the appearance of lots of cucumber beetles the week prior. This week there is a marked decrease in the amount of cucumber beetles amongst my roses. They aren't completely gone, but enough that they don't bother me.
I am very sure that I will not have to spray again this year for anything, and I am happy with that.
I think that what I do is effective relatively safe and I do everything I can to be environmentally friendly.
I don't think it affects the amount of or the quality of my rose blooms either. I was out specifically among my roses surveying the # of blooms/buds on each bush and I think that I have an exceptionally large amount of them and see no effects from the Merit quality or quantity wise.
I think Merit does a good job killing the bad bugs, and I don't see dead beneficials in my blooms or the garden in general. I don't see any reduction in the amount of the good earthworms, and I have LOTS of earthworms in my garden soil.
What I do find is dead thrips, cucumber beetles, and even a lone Japanese Beetle the other day. I hand-picked off a few good sized caterpillars that had had quite a meal, especially on my "Touch of Class" yesterday and today, so it isn't killing everything.
John

Bayer product names are confusing. There is a 3-In-1 product (tebuconazole, imidacloprid and a miticide) which is sprayed and an All-In-One product (tebuconazole, imidacloprid and fertilizer) which is applied as a soil drench. I have never come across reports of growth regulating effects for Merit (imidacloprid). F& N tests are summaries of fungicide and nematicide tests at universities across the country. Of some 11 reports for tebuconazole and roses, three of the reports mention modest growth regulating effects, typically summarized as, "slightly more compact main stems and smaller, darker green leaves". In one study, flower production was higher on tebuconazole-treated roses (80 blooms per plants) compared to the control (55 blooms per plant). An increase in flower production was not observed for Orthenex or Daconil which showed similar control of the disease.

I made a politely phrased statement of fact about disulfoton which bubbacat characterized as"useless gibberish" inspired by my ignorance and political beliefs. In fact, disulfoton is on the order of 500 times more toxic than malathion and 100 times more toxic than imidacloprid (rat LD50). Really, bubbacat's post is about the dumbest and rudest one I've seen here in years. I think an apology would be in order, unless he is a crazy person.

I think bubbacat is a "she."

I don't think she asked you about disulfoton, did she Michael?

--and I don't think you bothered to answer any of the questions she was asking, did you Michael?

If someone did either of those things to me--face to face--

they'd understand real quickly who was "rude" and who was "dumb."

MichaelAT

MAT-- I stick in a cautionary note whenever people mention using the 2-in-1 fertilizer. The reason I have done that is that some people seem to think all chemicals are dangerous and others think they're all relatively safe. In fact, disulfoton is unusually dangerous, and people need to know about that. We've had two cases reported here of dogs poisoned by 2-in-1. Those are the only cases I've heard of here where a pesticide caused obvious harm. You mentioned in your post that it is nasty stuff. Why did you do that? I suppose because you know it is a special case.

Well I for one am not going to use as much of the Bayer All in One Soil drench as I have been using.
My roses are growing so big and tall that I can not reach the blooms to look at them or to enjoy their fragrance. And I really believe that it contributes to spider mites if used every month as I have been doing.
I believe It kills off the beneficial bugs that take care of the spider mites. And like John stated above, I rather have little bugs here and there than those nasty little spider mites, they will defoliate a bush in no time at all. I wish there was a happy balance, and I suppose there is if you just let nature do its thing but roses are a real challenge.
I have to laugh though, my neighbor is 93 years old and he has a Zéphirine Drouhin bush that is shaded by a tree, he never waters it, never trims it, never feeds it fertilizer, he never even looks at it and that thing comes up every year blooming like mad and here I am out there with my roses pampering them like little children......... Why do we obsess over these plants so much??!! It must be that we are crazy.....lol.

"Karl - if you have such a fantastic method of growing roses, try conveying it instead of being such a presumptuous, pompous a-hole."

My method is no secret and has been posted here often. I use no insecticides, none, neither as a preventative or after the fact. I've learned to live with some leaf and flower damage.
After five years of not using insecticides, I have few damaging insects. I saw no aphids this year, or spider mites.
I do have lots of natural insect predators, including lady bugs and birds plus lots of bees and butterflies.
I have less insect damage than my neighbors who spray insecticides at the first sign of any insect, indentified or not.
Right now my roses are blooming like crazy.
If that makes me a pompous a-hole, so be it!
Name calling doesn't bother me that much. I've learned that those who call others names have a limited vocabulary and usually little education with poor social skills. It also reflects on their parents and how they were raised.

I use the Bayer stuff and do not notice any unusual decrease or abnormalities in flower production.

I wish I could use insecticides only as necessary, but my roses suffer all season long by bugs. The thrips start early and continue the entire summer, and then of course there are the Jap. Beetles. What natural predators do those two have? I gave up last year and started using the chemicals - before I never used them and suffered deformed/eaten blooms. I don't mind aphids as much, but it seems like NOTHING eats thrips and JB's - and if they do, they are not keeping up with the population explosion in those two pests.

Have to admit I have dreamed of that face to face.lol
signed ;one mean u no watt.

I use the Bayer all-in-one and never had spider mites. I am now curtailing the use of it because of the cost, not because I'm unhappy with it. I've never noticed the effect that bubbacat mentions, except on roses that are known for it.

And bubbacat did mention the 2-1 granules, so mg's post was valid. I'm glad he wrote it because I used to use the granules and now will not. There is nothing wrong with information.

I will also spray for JBs and thrips as I see fit. I take precautions to avoid bees or open flowers. This year I sprayed for thrips when there were no bees around and it really helped. I haven't had that many JBs, so I'm doing the squishing method.

We all need to read this:

"read this"

Karl, you can be pompice and arrogant at my house anytime! To find a way to garden without artificial chemicals takes determination. I admire it and you.

Rambin, I admire your discovery as well.

I guess if I lived in a really bad area for bugs I might be tempted. I think first I would try bringing in predatory bugs. I would use artifical chemical if I really had to. But I would use it scarce and only the chemical for the problem I had.

I must say I have had such a great garden this year. I have used no artifical chemicals at all. I have learned not to run from honeybees. My garden has had those lately and bumble bees all summer. I get dragon flies, and all kinds of bugs I have never seen before. If a I get a leaf that looks bad or has been chewed on, I pick it off. I feel superior to every other gardener who gets out the chemicals first sign of any little bug.

Michaelg is a nice person and very knowledgeable. If he/she ? says that a chemical is bad I believe it.

Many thanks to all of you who provided insight on my actual inquiry!!

Instead of saying "We'd appreciate all feedback" you should say "Only people who agree with my position should respond, otherwise, I will call you an A-hole".

Over the years (20+), I've tried various approaches. In The Beginning, I applied a combined fertilizer/pesticide. I am now trying Karl's method. With the exception of a Merit drench for the birch trees which would be positively dead without it, this is year three of using no insecticides. I have been sorely tempted to try a Merit drench for just a few roses with severe Raspberry Stem Sawfly infestations, but so far have resisted, and am using mechanical methods instead.

And in this third year, I can clearly see more beneficials and less thrips damage. I am going to wait it out, give the garden time to come into balance. The spraying never worked for long anyway. It takes patience and sometimes a lot of ignoring, but I think in the long term, it's the healthiest answer - for me, for my pets and grandchildren, and especially for the garden.

Regina

Well I am a newbie and have little experience. I just wanted to chime in and say that I have used the 3-in-1 soil drench for the whole time I have been growing roses (not long) and I am not so happy with it. I am looking for a new methodology for next year but I am not so brave as to try Karl's method.

One year at our last house I didn't use the drench until a few weeks into the season as I had a new baby and no time to check roses. A rose bush was fairly engulfed in aphids and it was too late...it later died. So I do want to use something but I don't know what. I have also been using the Bayer Advanced Disease Control for a few weeks and the BS has slowed but not stopped on my pesky but pretty Heirloom HT.

bubbacat: Layoff Karl. If you'll do a little research you'll learn that he knows how to grow roses and has offered his time and experience to other rosarians most generously.

To put it mildly, Karl is an elder statesman in the rose growing world.

You are not required to approve or appreciate his methods, but your response was rude and made without any knowledge of what he actually has to offer and has contributed over many years.

redsox, I don't think the Bayer drench alone is enough to stop blackspot. It helps, but I still have to spray.

I don't have aphids on my roses, maybe because of the drench, I don't know. I used to have many on my milkweed (of course I can't spray or use a systematic on it)and it usually ruins it, but none this year.

Actually I am planning to continue the Advanced Disease Control but was looking for a replacement for the drench. I don't really know what products to consider. I can ask locally too, what works here...

I'm still going to use the drench 2-3 times a year. But now with 70+ roses, it's too expensive. I've done the alfalfa tea twice and the results are good. Next year I'm going to amend the soil well and add some slow release fertilizer 1-2 times during the year.

Regina, I think you will be rewarded when you are almost entirely artifical chemical free. It's pretty fun to see who is living in your garden.

Redsox, I don't think that Aphids alone can kill a rose. Maybe someone else knows for sure. But what I have noticed is that insects and diseases attack the weaker roses. Maybe this rose died because of something else? Just a question.

Some of you folksies are so gosh darn disgustin'. Talk about hair-trigger anger and looking for insults and slinging your own. It's a wonder your roses just don't wilt from the anger fumes your giving off.
IMHO,
Kathy

Good evening. I've just moved to NorCal from Massachusetts and my knowledge of plants is limited. The house that I've just purchased has some rose bushes that I don't have a clue how to take care of, so I did some looking and came across this website. While reading through this string of comments regarding Bubbacat's inquiry, it just struck me. Within 30 minutes of the original Bubbacat post, these were two of the three posts that were returned:

"My thoughts on the preventive use of insecticides precludes me from commenting.
Enjoy your sterile environment!"

"Just a note, the 2-in-1 granules contain an unusually hazardous ingredient, Di-syston (disulfoton). It is much more toxic than other common insecticides."

So, I went back and researched Karl and Michaelg, and noticed that they have a lot of knowledge on the subject of roses. So, I'm completely confused as to why Karl would start off with an insult (how else should one take a comment such as "Enjoy your sterile environment") and Michaelg starts with a caution regarding pesticides?

I went back and looked into Bubbacat's bio, and she (since it references that she has a patient husband) has 17 dwarf citrus bushes and dozens of rose bushes. Doesn't sound like a person who has never seen a rose bush?

Coming from the East Coast to the West Coast, the climate in NorCal is unlike anything I have had to deal with. It took me weeks to realize that my headaches were because I wasn't drinking enough water on a daily basis - because you don't sweat when it 10% RH (dry).

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make here is that I can understand Bubbacat's frustration with having her first posts to this forum be met with such vitriol (is that a big enough vocab word for you, Karl?).

Vitriol - something highly caustic or severe in effect, as criticism.

See, in Massachusetts, my parents encouraged me to get an education and to be direct, without insulting someone unless they deserve it. I was taught that respect is a two way street - you don't get it just because others say you should have it... it's earned with each person you interact with. One bad treatment isn't canceled out because you've been helpful to others in the past.

So, while it may be entirely true that Karl and Michaelg are knowledgeable people, why not spend a few moments and, perhaps relay (though stories) how they used to use pesticides, but learned other ways that have worked for them in tending to their Roses? Or, provide links back to other threads that (like others have done).

Isn't the purpose of such a forum to exchange ideas and information?

Also, since Bubbacat didn't put her original post into the organic section of the Rose forum, why would Karl and Michaelg feel the need to jump on the question with such non-answers? Again, why not steer people toward non-pesticide solutions that have worked for you (and it sounds like they are still working)?

So, I certainly hope that the remainder of the posts for this link are constructive. Of course, in order for that to happen, that means that all of you will now have to resist your natural tendency to tearing down my family, standing, education and upbringing. And yes, my grandparents are still alive, so feel free to disparage 3 generations...

Karl and Michaelg didn't follow their parents teachings - If you don't have anything nice to say...

Bubbacat just figured she would come down to the level established by their immediate retort of her original question.

MichaelAT has the right idea - answer the question!

Anyway, it's now dark - and I have to go out and take a pesticide bath and then drink heavily... just kidding.

Sorry, Karl may have been a bit sarcastic, but he's earned that right. And there was NOTHING wrong with michaelg's post. Bubba mentioned the 2-1 granules.

Bubba's response was out of line.

No need to be rude or insulting-period.
Nice people here.
While we certainly can agree to disagree,we don't have to be disagreeable-thats a choice that will be condemned.

Michaelg has taught me A LOT of what I know. If others are more scientific, it does not mean their response is snide, that is just how they think.

Most people are very nice on this forum except when Pete41 mentions the Yankees. Unforgivable.

People never cease to amaze me. A newbie member coming in with both guns a-blazing (p-wolly). How to win friends and influence people - NOT!

*Shaking my head in amazement*

rose nutty, a new poster stirring things up may not be what she seems.

I think it would be good to let this one drop.

I don't think evolution entirely prepared humans for electronic communication. Meeting and talking face to face, I'll bet Pete and MAT would be good friends.

Mike,

Do you have scientific evidence to back that theory?

I have learned one valuable lesson from that source.When you can't reach out and touch someone you might as well laugh at them.That beats having stomache acid eating away.LOL

Here is a study that bears on the original question:

"In field-grown roses, the Bayer Disease Control and Ortho Daconil treatments provided significantly better control of the disease compared to controls and Bayer All-in-One. Although symptoms of black spot on roses in the Bayer All-in-One treatment was significantly less than those in the controls, the plants were stunted and had significantly smaller flowers than roses within other treatments."

Hey, whats wrong with the Yankees:)

Hey, whats wrong with the Yankees:)?
Luckily, that is a question that only George Steinbrenner and Yankee fans need to worry about this year.
An ex-Bostonian

I use to be a yankee-well border state-Delaware
I thought not-yankees were strange but now that I am a non-yankee I am not sure if I am a fan of yankees as they all seem to talk different and its hard to understand why they are down here if they still want to be up there wanting to be down here so that seems strange to me but I wouldn't spray them all,I would probably wait to see which Yankees became pests and weed them out selectively or hope the lizards took care of the problem but every year hordes of them fly north and transform into JBs I gather as I see a lot of talk on here about how they are back so one seems to follow the other too closely to be just bad luck,then in the fall they come back here and think they own the place so thats part of whats wrong with the Yankees by George.

I have to laugh at some of the posts that suggest everyone act like adults. I say this because "ultimate fighting" is fast becoming one of the most popular adult sports. Shaking your finger and telling people to grow up isn't realistic.

This is a forum and everyone is entitled to express an opinion. If a poster only wants to hear a certain answer, I suggest that person state so right up front: "No opposing suggestions welcome." If a poster only wants comments from people who douse their environment in hazardous chemicals, just say so.

Some of us occasionally comment so that new gardeners will know that there are other alternatives to poisonous chemicals. There are also serious consequences.

So, while it may be entirely true that Karl and Michaelg are knowledgeable people, why not spend a few moments and, perhaps relay (though stories) how they used to use pesticides...

This is not a moderated forum. We post as we see fit. Sometimes shortly out of frustration and anger. We do not feel the need to spin stories for anyones edification. No one was particularly rude until the op alluded to a bodily orifice. He/she/it lost a lot of respect with the vulgarity. Karl and michaelg do have a lot of knowledge. It's up to everyone reading this post to decide the advise they want to heed and the advise they want to ignore. But the fickle finger of politically correct it pointing squarely at the people who are poisoning the environment. Be prepared to take some hits when you step up and say I use insecticide and I'm proud of it.

I think it is ridiculous and extremely rude to start the insults and name calling thing.

I am not ashamed to admit to selectively using a pesticide. As I said, I use Merit spraringly and it seems to be very effective and so far I have seen no decrease in the amount of beneficials in, on, or above ground. I only spray the very tip top of the plants where the buds are and that has been very effective.
I did at one time spray various insecticides at the drop of a hat and learned quite quickly that was not the way to go. I figured out pretty quickly that indiscriminate spraying killed off my spicer mite killers and that isn't a good thing at all. Spider mites are much worse to deal with than any other bug IMO.
This year thank goodness, even using the Merit twice so far, I seem to have luckily got past the spider mite problem unscathed. Most years I would have started seeing their damage already. This year I see none so far.
I don't believe that 2 gallons of insecticide spread over 225+ bushes for a full year of growth is an unsound practice.