crouch- If you believe your soil is compacted, you should consider aerating as part of your late summer/early fall lawn care program. Try sticking a long (6" or so) screwdriver into your soil. If it is tough to get it in to the handle, you may well have a compaction issue. Not sure where in Jersey you are, but right around Labor Day is when I get into aerating/overseeding activities in CT. Cold overnight temps, shorter days, and an abundance of maple leaves makes October much too late around here for a high success rate with kbg overseeding. I was absolutely blown away with the results of my efforts last fall, which I moved up to Sept 2-4 (I know everyone says "fall overseeding," but "late summer" would be more precise). Of course I'd love to pat myself on the back as some sort of lawn guru, but the truth is we had pleasant days, not too cool nights, regular rain, etc. right into Thanksgiving! With crabgrass dying with the first good frost, I may not automatically reach for the roundup. I have found that cutting my existing crabgrass/lawn as short as possible and bagging/raking the clippings allows me to seed immediately without the use of roundup. If timed properly, the desirable seed germinates and gets strong enough in the fall so I can apply a pre-m in the spring to prevent the crabgrass seed from germinating. I wouldn't necessarily give up on it this year, but I can't expect you will get optimal results at this point either. I would heed billhill's advice about organic material and watering. KBG is a notorious slow germinator. I would also seriously consider having a soil test done. I understand you wanting to be able to mentally turn the corner on this one way or another and nobody likes to see their hard work go unrewarded. Maybe adjust expectations downward and hope to be pleasantly surprised now. Armed with the knowledge you can gain on this board, this may well be the last spring you need to endure lawn envy.

Wayne, Mine are very finely shredded, almost dust.The mower shreds, then the DR mulch/chipper vac shreds them again. It was at least a foot deep when I spread them in the fall, about 6" when I planted this spring. I've pretty much decided to put the leaves in the same place. Turn under the buckwheat and other residue, and replant clover again. Then next spring, mow the clover, lay off rows and plant corn since the prices on corn is so high. It's about 1/2 acre so I would have a lot, weather providing. If the prices stay up, which I think they will, I could make a few bucks.

I often store bags of leaves over the winter. I stock up in the fall at a nearby subdivision. I use the leaves to balance all the old produce I compost throughout the year. I get them from other people's yards, so some are shredded, some aren't, some have grass mixed in, but mostly they do not. The bags don't seem to shred in the sun unless I keep them for more than a year. Two falls ago I went a little berserk and stockpiled 3 truckloads of bags of other people's leaves, so last year I didn't scrounge any up. But the bags from two years ago sometimes came apart. Not much trouble with bag smells in the bags, as generally some weeds or something poked a hole in the bags. Marcia

I know this is an old thread, but I'd like to add the knowledge I've gained from battling bermuda grass over the years using only organic methods. I live on heavy clay soil and the bermuda grass is heaviest over the leach fields of our septic system. Because I can't plant anything but grass on the fields, I added lots of planting beds near and around the fields where the bermuda is the thickest, but didn't know how much of a pain that was going to be. So, to say the least, I've been whacking at the bermuda for years and learned the following: Digging it up is an almost useless undertaking mainly because of our thick clay soil. There's always enough missed that the stuff comes back fairly quickly. This is especially true if digging it up near a sidewalk or driveway. There is plenty of rhizomes under the pavement. Burning the stuff with a propane torch is fun at first but grows old quickly when you start seeing new green growth the following day. I also can't do extended burning sessions because I'm usually doing a remedial removal with good plants near the bermuda. I'm lucky enough to not burn the plants I want. Boiling water held promise when I tried it despite risking killing roots of my wanted plants. Though my first attempt at this was incredibly dangerous (super propane burner under a giant stainless pot filled with boiling water and a smaller pot to scoop and pour the water out). I saw definite slowing of the regrowth but I couldn't risk doing it the way I was. So I devised a plan to turn my propane torch into a continuous hot water flame thrower by getting thin copper tubing, turning it into a coil, and attaching it to the end of the torch. With the hose attached to the other end and a valve to adjust the water volume, I was able to torch and pour boiling water on the bermuda at the same time. Unfortunately, the bermuda just kinda laughed at the rig and kept growing. Industrial strength vinegar (ie, 20% acetic acid, and yes I know that stuff is quite dangerous) works wonders to kill the top growth, but sadly it just grows back. Now if you're putting in a new bed, thick paper or cardboard under the added soil or mulch will work, but only if timed correctly, more about that to follow. So what's left that an organic gardener has to kill this grass? The final thing in my arsenal is black plastic and not clear plastic. I've tried the clear in another area, albeit it didn't have bermuda in it, but it did have johnson grass and it loved the clear. The johnson grass just kept on growing. The black plastic I've used is the stuff meant to go in crawl spaces as the moisture barrier. It's thick, heavy, and comes in really large sizes. And it withstands the elements very well. I've used one piece now for a year and it doesn't show any UV damage that most plastics would show. Now there's a trick with using the black plastic. You have to time it right. If you want to kill the bermuda, do not put it down in the early spring to take it up in early summer or late summer for late fall removal. Because bermuda goes dormant where I live, the spring time use of the plastic will not really kill it as it is probably still dormant under the plastic. But, the interesting part is the fall timing. As cooler temps approach in late summer, the bermuda starts going dormant even though it is still green. It starts storing more in its roots. So, even if you smother it then, it will come back in the spring. I learned this dearly when using the thick paper method of killing the stuff for a new bed. The paper did its job to kill the bermuda for that year, but in the following spring when the paper degraded in the soil, the bermuda came back with a vengeance. So time laying the plastic out in the early summer to at least late summer. That should ensure total removal. Of course, if you're paranoid, like me at times, leave it longer. Now, there's another problem with thick, black plastic. You really can't use it in already established beds because it will choke out your good plants and probably wreak havoc with your soil. It works wonders for killing this stuff before establishing new beds and for areas without plantings like walk paths. But what do you do with established plantings? This year I got a new weapon. Woven black plastic: http://www.groworganic.com/sunbelt-weed-fabric-3-x-50-roll.html The stuff lets air and moisture to pass through while keeping a total blackout for the soil surface. I haven't yet tried it on my bermuda as it is still dormant-ish, but I have some ready at first signs. It looks extremely promising as the material is thick and just as light blocking as the black plastic for a crawl space moisture barrier. And it should work just fine around my already established plantings.