Catalpa gets huge. It's a nice tree, but very coarse which doesn't sound like quite the thing for your situation.

Pagoda dogwood? Serviceberry? Fringetree? Blackhaw viburnum? One of the smaller disease-resistant crabs? Lots of choices, really.

Thanks for your reply!

Serviceberry is more like a shrub here...unless there is a variety I'm not aware of.

Fringetree is really pretty but everything I've read says it needs acidic soil. Anyone have a different experience w/ it?

Blackhaw is really pretty! Do you have to do a lot of pruning to keep it a tree? I like the idea of fruit for the birds. Anyone have experience on it's growth rate, ability to grow under/near it, etc?

I definitely don't want a crab.

Feedback on my initial listings and other ideas appreciated! :)

Cornus Kousa, not Cornus Floridas, are the dogwood trees that people should buy due to excellent disease resistance. But, all dogwoods perfer part shade, especially in the afternoons.

Cercis Canadensis start out looking good in spring, but go down hill fast, in my opinion. They also require afternoon shade for the best growth and overall appearrance.

I would suggest a serviceberry, an Acer Palmatum, if you can find one to do well in your zone 5 climate. We are below you in Evansville, Zone 6, and have 7 that are doing great. The best one that I've seen for full sun is 'Emperor One'. It has fast growth and "it is the red maple by which all other red maples should be judged".

The tree you probably saw was the Acer Palmatum 'Griseum', which is, in my opinion, the greatest tree in the world. It has fout season interest and would fit your requirements.

How about a magnolia, maybe a Butterfly?, or a Cercidiphyllum Japonicum, which is very similiar to a Cercis, but with much smaller leaves. We have the Red Fox, which is cool.

Just quickly rambling on here...Of course, it depends on climate for some of these. Most of these suggested, except for maybe the dogwoods, will eventually get larger than your requested 15' by 15'. I'll keep brainstorming and get back to you if I think of anything else. I've been in your situation many times before.

15' is pretty limiting :-) With the exception of most crabapples and some Japanese maples, most trees will get larger than 15' in time. And I wouldn't recommend a JM in an area that will receive frequent cultivation as in the dividing of perennials or adding of plants - their shallow root system would be disturbed and that can lead to all sorts of issues.

Amelanchier would be high on my list. And I'm not sure why Cornus mas wouldn't work - just as easy to garden under a Cornelian cherry as it is with any other dogwood. A kousa dogwood would work as well. I'd also consider witch hazel, fringe tree (acid soil not a requirement), Amur maackia, Acer griseum (NOT a cultivar of palmatum, but a maple species of its own) or Japanese lilac.

Many magnolias stay smaller but produce copious surface roots, so underplanting is a challenge. Katsura - Cercidiphyllum japonicum - will get huge....as much as 70'.

No you don't have to do much pruning to a blackhaw to keep it as a tree. In my experience it's form is naturally more along the lines of a small tree than a large shrub.

Is there some reason you won't consider c. alternifolia (pagoda dogwood)? The form is perfect and it should perform well in your zone.

Viburnum plicatum is another possibility -- they work pretty effectively as small trees.

Winner = Cornus. alternifolia as long as you have decent moisture in the area. You'll have to get a tree form and find one with definitive horizontal branching (most are, some aren't). Plant a few small non aggressive shrubs to help retain mositure and keep the soil cool.

Also, Fringe Tree doesn't need acid soil. They are very slow growing and slow to awake in spring.

Honestly I like ALL of gal's suggestions. They all made the cut in my garden this year (except Japanese Lilac). Amur maackia = Maackia amurensis

I forget to mention if you go with Maackia amurensis (species or 'Starburst' cultivar) alot of people complain about no fall color but the fact that the emerging leaves are silver and look like blooms more than compensates for that. It also gets the flower spikes in late June/early July.

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I would have included the pagoda dogwood in the mix except that most sources state a preference for both part shade AND acidic soils. Since acid soils are the norm here, I have no idea how tolerant they may be to more neutral/alkaline soils. Maybe others can chime in on that point.

I meant to include the attached link with my previous post. It does a very nice job of categorizing landscape plants according to size and is zone appropriate. Be sure to scroll down and check out the large shrubs as well as the small trees as many of the shrubs are very tree-like in habit and would certainly work, provided you selected one with a suitable form initially.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fitting trees and shrubs into the landscape

The Sweet Bay Magnolia and the Service Berries can be bought as either multi-stemmed shrubs or small trees. They would be great for your needs.

Cornus florida, Cornus kousa, Cercis species, Acer griseum, Acer triflorum, and many Japanese maples are perfectly happy in 100% sun here in north Arkansas. No need to worry about shade for them in Indy.

Arktrees

gal, I've read that too but then started to see them growing in full sun with alkaline soil in the area.

My brother in law has a native one in his backyard that faces west but shaded from the south. Its about 15' tall...growing more upright due to crowding from the north and south.

I was pruning my neighbors poplar (its right on the lotline) and one of the suckers I pruned out was red. Sure enough it was Cornus alternifolia. I was so mad that I cut it out.

sorry for the delay in responding...i had to work..ugh lol I'm going to try to answer everyone in some sort of order. Join me in my ramblings. :D

Conon: I'm quite taken by the Cercidiphyllum Japonicum you suggested - that is cool!!! It may have just moved way up my list!!!

I was initially thinking about a butterfly magnolia...funny you mentioned that...but all that i have seen are more like a shrub than a tree - the habit just wasn't right. It will be shading a woodland garden so I think ultimately I want something more "rugged" and natural looking, if that makes any sense at all. LOL Same w/ the red JM's...just a little too "pretty". (i know i sound crazy...just trying to pinpoint what i mean lol). Does that make a bit of sense?

I think that maybe I saw an amur maple in the neighborhood (took pics, will post momentarily), but in looking at the griseum you suggested, it may be a heartier (intended spelling) choice. This one in particular looks very cool - Acer griseum x nikoense 'Ginzam'. The amur that I saw was poorly planted w/ roots wrapped around itself, however, which is probably why it wasn't looking to hot.

Ggal: yes, 15' is limiting...I actually restepped the area and could probably go to 20'. The main concern is that it is near power lines and I don't want to have to take down yet another mature tree or butcher out a big chunk of it (yes, I still loved that big ol' nasty boxelder lol). I was playing it safe w/ the 15' width but I'm pretty sure I could go a little bigger.

I'm really happy to hear that the fringetree can handle non-acidic soil - it's awesome! The maackia is also totally cool! The cornus mas that I have has such a dense mat of roots that I can't grow anything under it. All of the hosta planted beneath it dwindled to nothingness and any grass in the root zone is a goner. Is that atypical?

Yikes...ok, so strike the katsura if it gets that big. Dang. that stanketh. lol

marymd: The reason I'm not too hip on going w/ dogwood is b/c I already have a decent variety in the yard and was hoping for something new. I have two dying floridas (buh bye and good riddance), two kousas, golden shadows, wolf eyes, variegated pagoda "wedding cake"...and two others. Kinda dogwooded out.

Ok...going to submit this and type more. LOL

Ok, too hard to try to answer all individually. LOL

Ok...so here are the ones that I like so far...need to start to narrow down (local availability may narrow it for me!):

Cercis - 'floating clouds' and 'hearts of gold' catch my eye most. don't want anything that seeds heavily
Acer griseum - species or some variety
Acer triflorum
Cercidiphyllum Japonicum
Fringetree
Blackhaw viburnum
Maackia amurensis

Of the above...are there any that grow ungodly slowly or that have other issues I am not aware of? Do any grow faster than others (I know cercis tend to be fast)

Here are the pics...is this amur maple?

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Don't know how it seeds but check out Rising Sun Redbud. Saw some of these in the spring, and it was VERY impressive. Listed as max of 12'. If I had a place, we would likely have one.

Acer griseum - there are no selected cultivars. There are a couple hybrids with other species that IMHO don't look nearly as good. As for growth, it has not been a slow grower for me, but nearly everyone else reports more moderate growth rates. Have seen some state it will grow 1' one year, 2' the next, and then repeat.

Acer triflorum - Ours has been rather tall and narrow to date, but also grew very well last year, so far, not as much this year. It and out griseum are near one another, both in full sun, and both growing nearly identical in rate, with the triflorum being more narrow upright so far, but we have had both trees only for a couple years.

I suspect that my climate and elevation are very near their native habitats and hence are growing faster for me than what others report. Where we bought out grieseum (in the same county but few hundred feet higher elevation), the owner had one about 15' and 3+" caliper that she claimed had been there about 5-6 years.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rising Sun Redbud

You'll have to take Katsura tree off your list. Gets too big. Otherwise a must have tree...I have two!

Anyone know what the ID is of the photos above? Amur?

arktrees - that Rising Sun is unreal! I'm going to have to see if any local nurseries are carrying it - wow!!! I would definitely prefer it over "just gold".

Ok...so my new list, revised (taking your advise also whaas! thanks!):

Cercis - 'hearts of gold' or 'Rising sun'
Acer griseum
Acer triflorum
Fringetree
Maackia amurensis

Thoughts or (God forbid) additions? lol

I'm still not *totally* closed off to the idea of a dogwood...it would just have to be really awesome.

Rising sun is a brand new introduction, I saw it listed for the first time last fall. Saw 6-8 of them at a local nursery just as they were beginning to leaf out. They did not last long. Went back shortly afterward, and all gone. Sooner Plant Farm had them for a while, but not listed now. You may have to wait till spring if that is what you want. At least do a web search for it.

Arktrees

I wouldn't completely discount the katsura from your list, specially if you can fudge a little on size. If you can find it, 'Heronswood Globe' will only get to about 1/3 the mature size of typical katsuras. Ignore the sites that quote the 12-15' stuff.....the original tree (in Dan Hinkley's old Heronswood garden) is easily 25' tall and as wide. Same beautiful fall color.....and fragrance :-)

Performance may be quite different in your area as eastern redbuds tend have issues on the west coast anyway, but both Cercis 'Floating Cloud' and 'Hearts of Gold' are very weak plants here compared to 'typically' colored redbuds or even 'Forest Pansy'. Generally look sickly and tend not to thrive. And scorch readily, even in our very mild sunlight. YMMV

ok...headed out to look at trees today. wish me luck!

still would REALLY like to know what that maple is in the pics i posted above if anyone can tell me! :)

It's a hedge maple...let me answer myself. lol

Here is what I ended up with:

1 Winter King Hawthorn - already about 12' tall
1 'Venus' kousa dogwood - approx 9' tall but still narrow from being in the nursery
1 'Forest Pansy' redbud - approx 9' tall w/ lovely canopy.

They will be appropriately staggered throughout the area that needs coverage.

YIPPEE!!!

Let the planting begin (OMG lol)

Thanks for your help everyone!!!

Andrea

PS you see i caved on the dogwood after all...lol...and heeded the advice about FP being the stronger redbud :)

FYI, I've seen it reported a number of times that Venus grows tall and narrow naturally until almost to full height, at which time it then begins to spread. I only bring this up so that if it continues as currently shaped, that you won't think that it is having an issue. I don't have Venus, but it has been my experience that dogwoods establish more slowly than many other kinds of trees, so you may need to pay attention to it for a few years. Otherwise a great tree that is purported to grow very victoriously. Good luck.

Arktrees

Thanks for the additional info, arktrees!! That's good to know since I can be neurotic. LOL

They all just arrived and are magnificent! I'm thrilled w/ my choices and think it will work beautifully.

TIME TO DIG!!! :D

Don't forgot pics when your done!

So how did it work out with the Monumental Sugar Maple?

Arktrees

I still didn't find one, Arktrees! Just little bitty 6 inchers. I guess I should just get a 6 incher and let it grow or something but I dunno. LOL (Says the woman who just planted 3 enormous trees and thinks she might die!)

That's the way it often is with the true hard to find stuff. Someone will buy it before it gets to any size. I found a seed grown Acer pseudosieboldianum takeshimense over the winter. Very rare to begin with, but most are grafted, so seed grown is even more rare. It was less than 1' tall, but I had never seen it offered before, and in fact didn't even know it existed until I saw it and looked it up. Oh, we love it, and it's growing nicely in a root pruning air pot in full sun. Odds of finding one for sale at 4'=ZIP. Finding them seed grownArktrees

Well my post got messed up. The basic point was that rare stuff is much rarer when of size.

Arktrees

lol...I completely understood what you were saying! :)

I think I'll start "re-shopping" for it this weekend and see where the best deal is. Why wait another year, right? I just have a big space right in the middle of the bed waiting for it. :)

UGH...they have 2 footers at Gees but they won't ship...no matter how much I am begging and pleading.

wonder how close ken is to them and if i could talk him into shipping me one lol

ROAD TRIP!!!! LOL!

LOL! I wish I could! Unfortunately that is almost 10 hrs round trip and I can't quite justify the cost for one tree. *sigh*

ohhhh keeeeeen....going to gee's any time soon?

I think I am going to call back and beg them to ship to me...I'll void the warranty. Who cares? lol