I would weed whack.
BUT...I want to ask how did you manage to get dead leaves from live Virginia Creeper? I have been spraying with double strength round up since about June 1....and the leaves are not even brown at the edges!
Do I need Napalm? a road grader?
Tough stuff! What did you use?
Linda C

Sorry - I wasn't clear. The dead leaves are the oak leaves that have fallen there and that have been piled up there from the rest of the yard for over 50 years. What I meant was that since the poison ivy has been successfully pushed back, now the sea of dead oak leaves is exposed. Frankly, it looked better (lusher, cooler, greener, woodsier) when the poison ivy was there! That's why eventually I'd like to make a sort of woodland garden there, but that's kind of way down the list.

The virginia creeper is very alive and very well. At this point I don't mind because it stays in the woods and doesn't venture into the "cultivated" areas of the yard. I guess eventually I will have to deal with it, and then perhaps I will indeed need napalm!

Thanks for your reply, and sorry for the lack of clarity on my part!

:)
Dee

A picture would be easier to see Dee. Can you post?
Whatever you plant into that area, I'd make sure its got really tough roots so it doesn't get smothered by anything else venturing in, is drought resistant and does not spread. To me that says small shrubs - native and fruit bearing if possible. It depends on your moisture and light levels and the quality of the soil. I would want something that didn't need amended soil because its not really in your bed and forms a transition area from the bed into the wild woods. Native grasses, small shrubs, native wildflowers. Can you call your extension service for a list in your area?

I have a part of undeveloped plot where things will encroach - largely grasses mixed with a generous compliment of weeds. For me, the easiest way to keep it under control is to rip it up with a "scuffle hoe" - which will go 2" deep and pull some things out root and all and for those things that get sheared off beneath the soil line, well, it takes them a while to poke through again. I haven't expended a lot of effort in the process, haven't had to rely on chemical solutions and, after raking up the debris, the area stays pretty clean. But there's always something that presents an ongoing battle.

Oak leaves are a great mulch and will decompose to help build your soil. I think the best solution is to extend the bed back to the woods, you can use excess leaves as the top layer of lasagna.

Dee,

I went right up to the edge of the woods, but mine are not as open as yours from what I understand of your explanation.

Since you plan on gardening into this area, I would garden into the 2 feet stretch with the future in mind. You can't weed wack for a time period because of the Blue Bells, and mulching would create a raking pain in the b..., so the only uninterrupted option is to garden in this area.

Just my two cents worth. LOL!!

It is a dilemna doing beds near woods. I have a similar dilemna but mine is mostly about jewelweed seedlings running amok.

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I was thinking of putting some vigourous hostas at the edge to stop the forward movement of unwanted stuff. Although it might look kinda odd. And if the unwanted stuff gets into the hosta bed, I won't be happy with weeding them.

In the meantime I am planning on the weed wack and round-up approach.

Oh, and the round-up thing got interesting. I was spraying away , and I noticed a different leaf hiding underneath. I looked closely and spotted Jack in the Pulpit!! I went and got some water to rinse it off fast. I think I saved it. I found and saved a few more too.

I have another strip that is similar to what you describe too. But there it is mostly piles of leaves and larger stuff. The scrappy edge stuff doesn't seem to move into cultivated areas there for some reason. Not sure why. There are some wild spreading viburnum that I hack back once in a while. Maybe you could edge your area with viburnums.

Here is a link that might be useful: using groundcovers to contain weed

Funny you should mention viburnum, wendy. I actually have a viburnum in the back center of this bed. I think I may be moving it though. It's getting big, and I also think it would do better with more sun.

alyrics, you know, all afternoon I was walking into the woods to dumps yard waste, and I kept looking around trying to see the best angle to take a picture from. It just seems that when I take a picture of something like this, there's no focal point and it's really hard to see what one is talking about. But I will try tomorrow to get a few shots.

You know, the funnything is I've been thinking about this for awhile, off and on, and it wasn't until I posted that it just dawned on me that I should just purchase a weed-whacker and be done with it. After all, who am I kidding? I won't get around to doing it until the bluebells disappear anyway, lol!

I'll try to post some photos tomorrow. Not only will it clarify what I'm referring to, but I'm always open to design ideas for present and future beds. ;)

Thanks everyone for your input!
Dee

I can't see why you want to do anything at all. Your transition area will look odd if you have mulch piled to a point, and then it stops at the edge of a native woods.
Weed Whacking is expensive ( cost of machinery, maintenance and fuel ), environmentally unsound - fumes from exhaust on a 2 cycle engine which is a very inefficient engine, your time - who wants to Weed Whack in July and August? Round-Up? Why? except for poison ivy which deserves anything that can be thrown at it. Why pour chemicals on your soil at the edge of a woodland? Save a spot for the salamanders.

You need a clumping ground cover that won't be invasive in a woodland. Epimediums, hellebores, hosta, daylilies, will all shade out weeds and have tough root systems. So will monarda, goatsbeard, azaleas, kalmia - both those will need some water maybe depending on the area. Another great plant is Christmas Fern - the evergreen polystichum - you get a weed barrier and evergreen ground cover all in one. Ditto for the groundcovers Cornus, rattlesnake plant, uva ursi,

A group of hosta and epimedium. There is also a PJM rhododendron and some ferns in here. The shrub to the left is Lindera benzoin planted for butterflies.
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Rhodo at edge of woods. Understory tree is dogwood. There are daffodils, lily of the valley for spring in front, then daylilies and hosta for summer
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Not the best pic, there are 2 River Birch, with several dogwoods between them, and in front are monarda, pokeweed, shasta daisy, heliopsis, clethra, Asclepias incarnata, epimediums, hosta, clematis, goatsbeard, a maple leafed viburnum, Aronia. All meant to feed or support birds, bees, butterflies
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Work in Progress on the well head - those Hakone Grass and Hellebores will grow in and cover it. But in the background, there are blue hosta and daylilies planted under dogwoods at the edge of the woods. They are tough as nails even in drought. The groundcover is huge expanses of a Lamium. The dry nature of this area keeps it from expanding into the woods.
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The next 2 are in April. a red crabapple that is not supposed to be in the woods but it does fine - just leggy
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Dogwoods before the azaleas and rhodos bloom
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Later in June its the Rhodos turn
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Hosta and Goatsbeard along the edge
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Wow Alyrics! Beautiful gardens. Everything looks very natural.

What stunning and inspiring gardens! Thank you for sharing them ...

"...I can't see why you want to do anything at all..."

Because right now I've got a bed, then a stretch of yucky, very tall, weedy grass, and then a sea of brown dead leaves. Not attractive at all.

"...You need a clumping ground cover that won't be invasive in a woodland..."

Well, that's "doing something", and that's a great idea! So what you are saying is to have the back of the bed go into the woods, with a groundcover at the back of the bed for transition. Is that right?

I will look around for some groundcovers that might be suitable. Unfortunately, my woods are nowhere as nice as yours are, and I still have this sea of dead leaves, so the transition may still look a bit odd, but certainly it would be more natural and continuous with the ground cover.

Thank you, and thanks for the wonderful pictures for inspiration!

:)
Dee

those are lovely pictures, but I think there's a difference with Dee's and mine "transition needs". Your pictures seem to be transition areas between the lawn and the woods. I (and I think Dee) already have the lawn transition done. I want something at the back of my beds to stop the woods clutter from coming into the area I cultivate and to fill in gaps.

And seeing as jewelweed throws its seeds 20 (!) feet, I definitely need to tame it and keep it in its place.

In my case, I need tall things for balance, but groundcovers to suppress weed seeds. And I don't want to start cultivating the woods... I'm maxed out on cultivation upkeep.

I'm thinking viburnums for the tall thing. Maybe a few Mt. Laurel too. Hosta's are going to look too formal in my true woodland setting. I was just looking at my persicaria polymorpha today starting to bloom and wondering if it was a 'woodland' candidate. Or even some other persicaria's. I think it might be good at suppressing weeds. I'll have to check out the sun requirements. Ferns would work too if they don't creep too far. They fit the look well.

Wendy - there was no difference at all, once upon a time.
It just takes time. Any place I've cleared I've battled wild mustard, thistles, grasses, field weeds, VA creeper and thousands of tree seedlings that get really tough to dig out if you don't keep after them. My transition areas from native woods to lawn range from maybe 2 ft to 15 ft deep. The 2 ft areas have lady fern, sensitive fern, pulmonaria, lily of the valley, epimedium sulfureum, daylily, hosta, lamium, small azaleas, Miscanthus, vinca, and ivy. The deeper areas have the shrubs and trees in back. Obviously we need more room for the larger woody plants.

These days, when I have weeds to battle, I pull what I can, and use 8-10 layers of newspaper covered by mulch for the rest. I killed a bed of English Ivy with newspaper and mulch so I know it can be done. In process right now of suffocating a patch of red clover and wild strawberry. You can't pull that stuff - at least I haven't done it successfully.

Lady Fern, Sensitive Fern, Hellebores (after established), Lily of the Valley, epimedium sulfurea, pulmonaria, comfrey, are a few things that can survive without upkeep in shade or sun after you get them established. In the right soil I don't know how but I've got 3 ft clumps of Tricyrtis Tojen and Miyazaki that are very dense and weed free. I accidentally cultivated a single cutting of persicaria a few years ago thinking it was something else, and I'm still pulling seedlings all over the woods edge and yard - that stuff is tough in dry shade and very invasive - as bad as wild aster. Worse than jewelweed. Clumping grasses would be good - something that doesn't run too far. I planted Feesey Grass which is horribly invasive in dampness, at the top of a cliff and its been wellmannered. I liked the Chasmanthium -sea oats in pictures then read the horror stories about reseeding and dropped that idea. There are woodland sedges that would fit exactly - no upkeep, stays in place, weed free.

The tall things are up against the edge of the native woods. I only clear up poison ivy. The rest of it I leave however it falls - that includes branches, fallen trees, weeds, multiflora rose, barberry that some bird dropped there - which admittedly I should clear out.

My small understory trees/big shrubs: Dogwoods, Aronia, Viburnums - the arrowwoods and Rhytidophylum, Rhodos and Azaleas, crabapples, Paw Paw, Kolkwitzia, Sambucus, Heptacodium, big Buddleias, Pieris, Mountain Laurel, Rhododendron Maxima, Witchhazel, Winterhazel, dwarf conifers, River Birch, Lilacs and Washington Hawthorn. I would like to plant a Halesia, a Sourwood, a Chionanthus and a Franklinia for some special locations but an obliging maple or poplar is going to have to blow down to make room and sunlight first. and sometime I'd like to clear some wild hawthorn from the woods to make room for Amelanchier as they are supposedly more shade tolerant but will still bloom and fruit for the birds. I've also started some wild Sumac for the early spring migrating birds. I removed some crowded large tulip poplars to let a big oak expand and now get a big crop of acorns for the deer and squirrels.

The next layer are some native and some ornamental shrubs. Sambucus ( elderberry), Fothergilla Mt Airy, Viburnum Blue Muffin, China Girl and Boy Holly, Blue Princess and Blue Prince Holly, Spirea Gold Mound, Forsythia Fiesta - just 4 ft tall, Itea Little Henry, Lindera Benzoin, Raspberry and Blackberry bushes, Clethra Rosea, Hummingbird and the original white one, Chaenomeles Cameo and Jet Trail, Hypericum Albury Purple, Cotoneaster, Caryopteris, medium to dwarf size rhododendrons and azaleas, chamaecyparis and arborvitae.

Then in between all that there are lots of blue and variegated hosta ( my deer prefer green hosta) and daylilies. I also found that Pulmonaria Mrs. Moon is very drought tolerant, makes an impenetrable matt and blooms nicely in spring with the daffodils. The evergreen Christmas fern - Polystichum, and Giant Solomons Seal are in extremely dry shaded areas, also Actea. Mayapples have seeded themselves all over the place where they were never before, also hundreds of jack in the pulpit, Smilicena, various ferns.
Also dandelions and wild strawberry and an unending supply of creeping buttercups that roots wherever it touches the ground. Former owner left me Snow on the Mountain.

This is the backdrop for what you see in those photos.
I just started planting Monarda Jacob Kline - for hummingbirds (doesn't mildew), Heliopsis for the goldfinches, and Asclepias for the Monarch butterflies, in any place there is a few hours of sun that can support it.
I also had many seedling hellebores the last 2 years so started using them as a low hedge to define the lawn - and put them everywhere from full sun to full shade.

My soil is what they call Mahoning Clay, the worst of it is blue, anaerobic and smelly, and its the stuff that lines the Great Lakes. I have a lot of garden bed space that is not at woodland edge and I've never gotten through the whole yard in 1 year with mulch, altho this year I put down 13 yards and still didn't finish. My forest edges have never been mulched in the past 4 years - but we blow all the leaves to the edge and thats all they get. If I have leftover compost I give it to the woods edge. The dense planting takes care of the weeds - there really aren't any anymore. I have not weeded the woodland edge except in one area that got disturbed by machinery.

I've done a lot of talking here. Just trying to help. I have learned a lot from this property about what is possible for pushing light and zone limits.

Dee, I was patiently waiting for promised pictures before put my two cents in, but after seeing great Alyrics' ideas and their implementations and reading Wendy's last comment I think I'll chime in.
If I understood correctly your woods are not as deep as Al's and you just need to cover 4-5-6' deep area of the ground you cleared of the PI.
Shrubs, shrubs and shrubs.
Not those refined shrubs you may consider for the foundation or otherwise clearly visible spaces, but those that could be left to their own to grow in any shape or size they want to be with ocassional pruning branches here or there if they'll encroach into 'maintained' territory.
Depending on your lighting conditions it could be anything from Abelia mosanensis to Lespedeza to Rhodies/Kalmias/Azaleas/Pierises to Cornus kousa to Weigela to Spireas to Hydrangea paniculata to Sambucus to Callicarpa to Sorbaria to Clethra to Itea to Physocarpus to Buddleia to...whatever,
and/or any combination of all or any of the above.
I just mentioned a names of the shrubs I use in a transitional areas between woods and the beds.
And I guess you know where to obtain unlimited cuttings from all of the above :-))
P.S. Don't use not yet withering foliage of bluebells as an excuse for procrastination. Reap it out and use RU on everything else. Bluebells will be there next year, they are undestructuble.

Wow, alyrics, thank you for taking the time to post all that! Lots of great info and good ideas. A bit of overkill at the moment for my little bed, but good for future reference, as I hope to extend the bed along the entire edge of the woods - and I have a feeling, as I said above, that I will do something with the woods area itself. I'm so glad I'm winning the battle of the poison ivy, but it's kind of a drag sitting on the patio and looking out over that sea of dead leaves under the trees. So I will look into some of the suggestions you so patiently listed.

And speaking of patient, sorry George! I did take a few photos, but ever since I got my computer "fixed", there seem to be more things wrong with it than before, and I can't seem to upload stuff. I'm working on it. Although by now I'm a bit hesitant because I'm getting all these great design ideas, and when everyone sees my little bed they will all roll their eyes and "pshaw!" me, lol!

:)
Dee

I was just thinking that it's July and you killed off all that PI, but when it starts raining again in the fall, some of it might revive. Assuming you're having the same drought we are. Maybe you should prepare a planting spot or 2, mark them with stakes or something, then cover the area in question with newspaper and mulch and wait till the fall sales start. By September trees and shrubs are minimum 50% off. You can pull away the mulch, plant your chosen shrub/trees - keep them watered and let them get a headstart on next year. You'd knock off 2 things from the To Do list - making sure the PI doesn't return, and get something planted there. I'm kind of smiling because you think your woods doesn't look nice - looks exactly the same way mine does if you looked beyond the edge plantings.

You must not have a deer problem. I got started looking for things deer wouldn't eat because when we moved here we had a personal herd of 11 deer. I felt like Robin Hood of Sherwood Forest or something. It was really bad. I even have pics of a deer with one foot on the back steps so it could look in a kitchen window. They ate everything in sight, even things no sane animal would touch, like aconitum. It was so bad a local town finally decided after 6 yrs of arguing to hire somebody to reduce the population - they cut it in half and we seem to be down to about 4 or 5 now. During that time, there was not a green thing in the 60 acres of woods behind us - up to about 7 ft off the ground - the farthest they could reach putting their feet on the trunks of trees. They browsed away every edible twig and leaf in reach. Now THAT was ugly - even the small trees were dying because they were so heavily browsed. Now that the herd sizes seem to be more in balance with nature, the whole forest floor has lit up again with green - its been pretty cool to watch.

There are some beautiful pics at Sunshine Gardens website http://www.sunfarm.com/plantlist/hellebores/hellebore_gardens.phtml

Longwood Gardens - woodland
http://www.longwoodgardens.org/EastGardens.html

alyrics, this poison ivy that I've been able to kill back has been killed back over the last few years. It's not like I just did it this season - that would be too much to ask for, lol. That's why I'm so happy about it, because each year I keep expecting it to take over again, and it hasn't. Sure, it grows back a bit, but every year I just keep fighting it back, and by now I've reclaimed a good 20 to 30 feet back into the woods. Not a lot, but it's one of those things that's kind of on the back burner now that the PI is out of the actual lawn area.

I probably will do just what you recommmend - prepare the area now and plant in either fall or spring. This bed was made using the lasagna method, so any extension of it will be made the same way.

I've been very lucky as far as deer are concerned, knock on wood! It's actually a bit surprising, since I live in a rather rural area (well, rural until about 10 years ago, and now it's developing rapidly). I see an occasional deer, and about three years ago I had some damage, but luckily deer are not a major problem. For that I am very grateful, as I have friends who beat their heads against the wall trying to deal with them. Voles seem to be my particular cross to bear in the garden.

Thanks for the links. I will take a look. Still working on uploading pictures...

:)
Dee

Alyrics, love your woodland edge pictures and prose. This spring, I pulled and composted goatsbeard and babies from a shade bed that was too small for them. Whatever was I thinking?! I have a long woodland edge that's stumped me for years and they would have been perfect there. Your pictures will be my reference as I tackle this project.

I have two dogwoods planted 15 feet apart 11 years ago as a transition to the woods. Each has a circle of (degraded) mulch, then grass. I want to eliminate the grass under the entire dripline, and a few feet beyond, to allow for plantings. Can I use the newspaper/mulch approach under the trees to smother the grass, or will that prohibit my lovely dogwoods getting sufficient water? If so, I guess I could put a soaker hose under the paper under the mulch.

Secondary reason for getting grass out of there is I may have to kill the lawn guy as he continues to break lovely drooping branches of these favorite trees. What is it with guys and mowers? All they see is grass, and NOTHING else matters but to whack it.