We have to be careful about saying the samething is true of all
brands, but there has been a general movement by Deere, then Cub Cadet and now Toro to offer a low-priced tractor to mow the
1/2 acre that comes with the typical huge new homes we see all across the country.

Sears used to be the only supplier in this market. Deere, Cub Cadet, Simplicity and Toro always built more expensive machines designed to last many years mowing over an acre of lawn. They still make these better grade mowers, but consumers generally suspect the higher prices are a rip-off and go for the cheap ones. The better quality doesn't become apparent during the first 6 or 7 years. But by the time you've had one for 10 or 12 years, the premium model's higher cost is eclipsed by the added cost of parts, labor and annoyance of patching up the cheap models as they fall apart.

When you expect a lawn tractor to perform like a garden tractor there's going to be a problem. When you expect to buy a garden tractor at yesteryears prices there's going to be a problem.

You could buy a Plain Yugo car,or the more expensive loaded Yugo.It was still a Yugo.

The other issue is what are the long term costs? Not only individually but as a society. We want to maintain our lifestyles so we shop around and buy what we think is the best deal at the time. Unfortunately that can mean sacrificing American jobs. Some overseas products are cheap, others are good. But in order to compete we would have to be willing to work in conditions and for wages that are unacceptable. And once we lose the infrastructure we may no longer have a choice. Try not to buy any products made in China. Corporations keep moving jobs out of the country. The gov't bangs the drum for high tech but lets face it, all of us don't want to be software engineers and rocket surgeons. The purchases we made in the past were often a greater percentage of our income for a given product. Ultimately, unless there are tariffs, we the consumers will dictate what products are offered.

Deere is now competeing with low cost units LT/GT/ZTR so they have to offer a low cost unit. The High dollar units, they still have - the marketing scheme is stirring the model numbers to make the consumer think they are gettting a higher dollar unit at a lower cost - not so!

Almost everything is shipped in or made from another country.Maybe not the entire machine but some of the parts.Deere is not just made in the US but has the high price and does not have the quality difference to show the price tag.I shopped around myself for a new tractor and could not justify the cost difference with the quality.The dollars between other companies are way out of line.I think we pay more for paint then the machine itself.Paint is worse than gas.

Lakeguy.

Good reminder. I too fear that soon we will lose the expertise and infrastructure.

Another hidden cost is the cost to dispose. My 1964 and 1969 are not in landfills.

I think we, as a nation, have grown so cynical that these decisions have gotten hard. In some cases extra dollars are well spent, but in some cases they are based on better marketing. Gradually we've gotten to the point where we just give up and assume you never get what you pay for and simply buy cheap. It is a wasteful habit. Not sure how to break the cycle unless we have a 1930's style depression to re-calibrate us to want things that can be fixed.

At least some folks try hard to research things and that is where the Internet helps.

I think one of the main reasons that people buy throw-away products rather than buying a repairable premium product is the cost of labor. If you have a major repair performed at a dealership, the cost of labor can make the repair uneconomical.

For example, a guy on another thread threw a rod in his JD GT325. He was quoted $2,500 by a dealership to fix it. I bet half or more of the total cost is labor. Depending on condition, the GT325 may not be worth much more than the cost of the repair. So in the end, did buying a repairable tractor benefit the owner?

If you make your own repairs (which many people did before throw-aways became popular) the economics change dramatically and it can make sense to repair rather than replace. If you buy used parts (again like many old timers did) the economics become even more favorable. However, most people today don't have the time or inclination to make their own repairs or scrounge parts so they buy throw-away products instead.

-Deerslayer

steve2ski,carhartman,deerslayer, wheelhorse,
all good points. I wonder if part of this is due to the fact that many ceo's are not tractor people but BUSINESS people. They don't care whether they are selling tractors or wigets. I read somewhere that ceo's made an average of 40 times the salary of the average worker in the 60's and 70's. Now it averages 250 times the average worker's salary.

The CEO of a large company has compensation determined by other things than customer satisfaction. The CEO must keep the stockholders happy, not the direct customers. Yes, if profits go down they will be hurt. But as long as sales and profits are maintained, the stockholder is happy.

Long term issues are important in theory, but in practice, not so much. If you make a decision to use cheap parts from cheap suppliers, causing your products to fall apart after only 5 years, then it will be a problem for your successor to deal with after you have retired or moved on to another corporation. Damage to the value of a corporate brand name is less important than an immediate boost in the bottom line.

These factors will often be different to a privately run business. There are a few tractor names that are still made that way. Custmer satisfaction is crucial there.

John

Two things that annoy me with respect to marketing (specifically, regarding JD's product-naming practices):

1) Arbitrary model numbers, or the gradual rise in numerical value to imply an upgraded product. For the past 30 years, a 100 series JD was a lawn mower, a 200 series was a garden tractor, a 300 series was a premium (hydrostatic, hyd lift) garden tractor, and a 400 was the ultimate garden tractor. Gradually an LX/GT200 could be either a lawn mower or a garden tractor, a GX300 remained a garden tractor, an X400 was still a mega-tractor, but now they had to tap into the X500s to denote the true pinnacle of lawn care. Oh, and they had this bizarre contraption known as a G100 (what the heck was that?).
Now 100 series is purely lawn mowers, 200 series is gone (apparently JD no longer makes good garden tractors, only premium and ultimate). An X300 is just a [helluva] lawn mower, not made for working the ground. An X500 is something less capable than what used to be numbered in the 300s, but isn't even in the same ballpark as what was recently branded an X500. And now they're using X700 to name the top of the food chain. They do have a 200 series ZTR, which I guess would lead you to believe it's better than a 100 but not as robust as a 300. Fair enough. But does that mean a Z425 is an upgrade from an X340? Nope.
I just don't understand why manufacturers try to confuse buyers (especially the most loyal return customers) by tweaking the model numbers.
It's just like pickup trucks. Ford had an F100, chevy had K10. Ford bumped it up to an F150, and a decade later Chevy said, "Oh yeah, let's see you beat 1500!" Now they can't really go any higher because once they start the designation of a half-ton pickup with a "2" it's pretty much an outright lie. My guess is it won't be long before we see an F190 or a Chevy K15000.

2) The use of "X" to denote any product which is outrageous or radically supercedes the standard. I don't know if it started with the X-1 breaking the sound barrier or the rise of Generation X, but I'm tired of hearing the prefix used for everything from a BMW SUV to an entire line of "Xtreme" green lawn mowers. How about this: lawn mowers start with an L, garden tractors start with a G, ZTRs start with a Z. Simple enough?

What do you mean by "quality"? Then there is quality control. Even JD and Toyota have a "lemon" now and then. Does that make the brand worth less if MTD has more trouble with lemons?

As a concept quality is very difficult to pin down. Is McDonald's quality hamburgers because each and every one is the same simple fresh defect free low cost product? Or do we need kobe beef on a fresh baked roll with wasabi lime sauce at $100 USD to be quality? Both will keep you from starving to death.

Then there is function. My JD345 will mow circles around the JD317 it replaced. The old 317 had lots more steel but it smoked, leaked, lacked ps, deck was harder to remove. The 345 drives with one finger, zips around things with foot controls, and the attachments are simple enough for even me to get on and off. The new X485 has fuel injection so less warm up time. I like being able to brush off the outer radiatior screen without getting off the drivers seat on the X. The 345 I had to pop the hood and the old 317 had the dang screen on the bottom of the tractor. The 317 and 345 would never have pulled a garden cultivator but the X485 is "heavy duty" and does a wonderful job of taking the weeds down. Alas it won't fit in some tight spots so I now own two JD machines.

My '68 Oldsmobile was heavy duty with a couple tons of steel but who can afford 10mpg? While it was very rebuildable the question is why? Granted newer vehicles cost more to own but they also cost much less to operate. One thing I really can't afford is to be broken down on the side of the road. Get killed and it don't much matter how much money you saved. People also form impressions based on how you look so driving a smokey rust bucket won't help you make sales or earn promotions... even though your vehicle has nothing to do with product or ability.

I make steel vehicle parts for a living. The japanese kick some serious U.S. butt in the quality department without costing anymore. They got their start by looking at U.S. grocery store operations in contrast to FoMoCo operations. Hmmm... how do you suppose they use our technology to beat up on us? One asian manager some years ago told me American's are fat, lazy, and stupid. At the time I was offended but after some years in industry I often think he was right.... not always but often.

"One asian manager some years ago told me American's are fat, lazy, and stupid."
Thats an outragous lie... Not all Americans are fat!

LOL

It's vicious circle. If you are lazy, you get fat. If you are fat, you get lazy. If you don't do anything about it, you're stupid.

I think, I pretty much have to agree with the statement, in general. There are exceptions, but I'm not going to say, "I'm one of the exceptions". Computers don't help much, either! ... don't I have something to do?

"One asian manager some years ago told me American's are fat, lazy, and stupid"
Seems like the Japanese had the same theory in '41.
When we really put our minds to it we can build the best of almost anything in the world. Trouble is that as many above have noted we're not doing our best for a # of reasons.

We're all fat.

I don't care if you're 6'2" and 170lbs, if you live in America, have cable television and high-speed Internet in your air conditioned home, drive to work without a concern that your vehicle might not get you there and back, own another vehicle just to mow your lawn, eat fresh food 2-3 times per day, and take a week or two out of each year just to do nothing at all but lie on the beach or fish in a stream, you're fat.

Why should anyone do anything to stimulate growth or sustainment in this nation? We're already sitting on top of the world as the military, economic, scientific and cultural superpower. And we've got so much going for us, whether you work or not, you will be provided for by someone.

The last two centuries of Americans have willed us this beautiful nation, and so few people know the meaning of sacrifice or going without, how could they ever fear losing it? As a son of a cop who made $20,000 a year and a stay-home mom, you'd think we were desperately poor, but we had all those things mentioned above. I didn't know the meaning of poverty, until I went to Djibouti and saw clusters of families living like stray dogs in corrogated metal shantytowns, or Bedouin shepherds living in tents 100 miles from anything in the middle of the Arabian desert. They are people clinging to life by their fingernails. They are people with a vested interest in improving the quality of the earthly experience, yet they will die having never had the chance.

We're just a bunch of fat Americans who know we rule the world, and can't imagine how any nation could ever challenge us again. I'm sure the Romans felt the same way. Even with opportunities abound, people still choose to proudly accept their welfare payments, claim false disabilities, and birth as many children as physically possible to get a little more government cheese. And those of us who support our families and pay Social Security let them get away with it. There's no reason why a 23 year old who's been in the country for two years should receive social security benefits for his "stress" disability. Nor should a single, non-working young woman have three illigitimate children by three different men, but they know they'll be provided for whether they're lazy, immoral, vagrant or stupid. Because this is America, and we condone that kind of behavior.

Americans are not all fat, lazy and stupid. Americans are the envy of the world. The liberty, health, wealth and beauty of this nation did not happen by accident. But it won't endure for posterity if we take it for granted.
Just give a sh1t. That's all I ask.

I agree with most everything you say, with one exception ... our health ranks far from the top.

"We're already sitting on top of the world as the military, economic, scientific and cultural superpower."

Notice I didn't include "medical" in the list--no offense lakeguy...

But I'm healthy, my family is healthy, and most people I know are healthy, with the exception those who chose to sabotage themselves. It's not our healthcare system that's a problem, it's our habits. My father-in-law is dealing with a perpetually collapsing lung not because his co-payments were too high, but because he smoked 2 packs a day for 40 years. My wife's cousin who weighs 400+, but it's not his fault; he has a low metabolism, and finds it difficult to digest three Big Macs after midnight.
And it's not my fault I've gone from a 30 to 36" waist in the past ten years, it's Budweiser's!

My apologies for the tirade above. I'm just a very opinionated person.

Call me old fashioned, I drive American cars, try to do the most of my purchasing in my own town. I don't work on foreign vehicles at my shop as a general rule. And my blood pressure goes through the roof when I think of illegal imigrants demanding their rights and benifits. The way my tax dollars are wasted makes my blood pressure go up too, had to quit watching the news except for the weather because it's too darn depressing.

Why would Abraham Lincoln wear a hat like that?!

hey marineguy,

careful, if you fall off a soap box that high and mighty you might hurt yourself.

Yeah, I'm off my soapbox now. I can't help it; I type at the same speed I talk and sometimes it just flows...

Got any stripes in your lawn with that broadmoor yet? We got a little rain in Carolina these past few days. My grass is finally green again.

we are the only first world country in the world who do not have some form of universal healthcare. Though born American I lived and was educated mostly in Canada 'cause my father decided to take a teaching position at the University of Alberta. for primary care, Canada wins hands down. If you are an affluent 75 yr old guy who needs an elective knee replacement, you get it done quicker in the States. Which system is better? It depends. The other thing is that we have to separate living standard with quality of life. Many countries in the world are poor, torn by war, corruption,etc. But there are others who have longer life expectancies than ours, who have a better quality of life, who have a better more balanced educational system. Are we really any happier because we are so rich? Studies indicate that beyond about $40,000-50,000 per year it doesn't matter anymore. As a rich American, we are looked up to as someone who has "made it" regardless of the path to this affluence. To the British you are still a jerk, just a rich jerk. Affluence doesn't directly translate into status. We are more isolated than ever before. Our culture is partly to blame. If there is a patient dying alone in a room on the ward 90% of the time they're a wasp. With most of the Hispanic families the room is full of people. I work for a non-profit organization. Many Americans I see are not healthy and must make choices, food or meds? Yet Americans who are brave enough to take on the plight of countries on the other side of the world are slaves to special interest and lobby groups who would sell the well being of our country for personal gain. Why do I live here? Because despite it all I like Americans and I like being American. My family is American going back to the 1600's. i love walking into 7-11 at 2 AM and hearing "Hi Buddy, How ya'll doooin'?" My faith is restored.

Sawdust maker said;
"The CEO of a large company has compensation determined by other things than customer satisfaction. The CEO must keep the stockholders happy, not the direct customers. Yes, if profits go down they will be hurt."

As a stockholder in many companies for many years, I strongly disagree with your belief that stockholders rule.
Large institutions like pension plans and mutual funds own
most of the stock. They own so many stocks they can't be bothered telling every CEO to wise up. Because your voting power depends on how many shares you own, the average stockholder has absolutely zero control over the CEO. That is specially true about how much he is paid. It is nearly impossible for stockholders to get rid of a bad CEO. CEO's know this and act like pigs in many cases.

marineguy,

I'm guilty of the same thing. Thanks for asking, we had rain in July but now we are in mega drought and HEAT. One thing I have learned about striping is it takes healthy grass. Click on the below link, and let me know what you think.

Here is a link that might be useful: crosswind landings

The CEO must generate earnings for the stockholders. If the CEO fails to deliver adequate earnings, the pension funds, mutual funds, and other stockholders will apply pressure to the Board of Directors to have the CEO replaced. It happens more often than you may think. Ask Carli Fiorina, a past CEO of Hewlett Packard.

-Deerslayer

lkbum,
thanks for the clip! If marineguy flew the kinds of planes I do he'd not have problems with crosswinds 'cause he could land ACCROSS the runway if need be!:)
Maybe we should start soapboxers anonomous!
Deerslayer,
You're right but who deserves a 200 million dollar severance package? Then gets to go on and become ceo of Chrysler and ask the average worker to give up health care benefits?

"You're right but who deserves a 200 million dollar severance package? Then gets to go on and become ceo of Chrysler and ask the average worker to give up health care benefits?"

I agree that CEO compensation has become obscene in certain cases.

-Deerslayer

Interesting that those with goverment healthcare, military present and VA, congressional, contracted for life private insurance(ceo and top company officials) and a few select others think the healthcare system is not a problem. I had company payed insurance for over 40 yrs, now that I pay its a problem. Kind of like a high dollar LT/GT's when the warranty goes off the parts are high dollar also. BTW I am classed Priority 8c in the VA. 10 more months till medicare, yeh! yeh! extended warranty.

Word's of wisdom:

"If you are lazy, you get fat. If you are fat, you get lazy. If you don't do anything about it, you're stupid."

I forget who poste this, but I love it.

Why do you think I worked full time in a Sam's Club tire shop while attending college full time? I was already on a scholarship, plus I had GI bill (from when I was enlisted) but that didn't pay my healthcare at age 23 (too old to be on Daddy's plan). But you know, it's not tough to get a job with good benefits.

Not only did I have good healthcare and dental at Sam's, but I had profit sharing, a 401K and bought preferred stock at $.75 on the dollar (and WMT stock was HOT in the late 90s). In four years I'd ammassed nearly $10k between the stocks, 401k and profit sharing plan, all while paying my way through college.

Anyone who's drug free, can spell their name and count to eleven can get a job like that, and have all those things.

I agree that it's not right that you can work for a company for 40 years then find yourself without coverage until medicare kicks in. You shouldn't have to get a job as a greeter at Walmart at age 58 just so you can have benefits.

"Anyone who's drug free, can spell their name and count to eleven can get a job like that, and have all those things."
It depends. Where you live, your race, your level of education, your health. People who are older with previous medical conditions are unwanted by employers for fear they will get sick and increase their premiums. The #1 reason for people/families going bankrupt in this country is healthcare costs/major illness. Many of my older patients have worked hard all their lives only to end up poor. Their crime? Poor health, falsely believing that medicare and social security would take care of them in their old age. That was the common wisdom until relatively recently. Those of us that grew up in stable households with good money management skills have to remember not everyone has had the benefit. Many of my young kids are just trying to grow up without getting molested, addicted to drugs, dropping out of school. I didn't have to grow up with an abscent father and a meth addicted mother. Many of these kids want to do better but they have a steeper climb to get out of where they are. I've had to work hard to get where I am but I never had the level of drama and dysfunction in my life a lot of these kids have.
Sure, HOMO DERELICTUS is still with us and probably always will be but those first world countries who are more socialistic and have larger safety nets (such as Canada or some European countries) are not plagued by MORE social problems but by fewer. America askes a lot of it's citizens. I think a lot of Americans are cynical. Special rules for special people, lobbyists, different levels of justice for different social strata. Interestingly, it is a disprportionate amount of the sons and daughters of the poor and disenfranchised that bear the burden of military service.

I've been pleasantly suprised with my sears 4500. For $1500 it has all the features I wanted...I posted a feew video review clips on my site in case you are interested.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.mentalking.com

WAIT !!!! That's a lawn mower! What the heck does THAT have to do with anything?

herringboned,
point well taken.

"first world countries who are more socialistic and have larger safety nets (such as Canada or some European countries) are not plagued by MORE social problems but by fewer"

True but try to get elective surgery in canada and see how quick that happens. Pick something that is cosmetic that has nothing to do with a persons health....say brest replacement after cancer. I know of a woman that came to the US because of the long waiting time. Be carefull what you ask for you just might get it. Lawyers are what killed healthcare in this country. Ask any DR. what his insurance is and you will find out why health care is so high. He has to defend himself against the leaches of our culture....lawyers.

marineguy, try getting a job a 63 or 64 with benefits, I have no doubt that at age 23 or even 33 or 43 its very easy to obtain work with benefits. The goverment officials answer to this issue was COBRA, the 10K you amassed will pay for 14 months premium of COBRA for wife and I. Over $800/mo. Since I "retired" 2 mo ago. Since, I have had 4 job offers all without benefits - the lowest was parttime at 14K/yr the highest was 50K at more than fulltime (40hrs + /wk.). Also was offered a "consulting" position with former employer, no benefits of course. Went to work on my own and paying COBRA- 10 more months than I qualify for extended warranty "medicare" (approx 10% of cost for Cobra). Oh yeh, retirement 401K, I funded. No complaints there I am not locked to any one fund can find the ones I like best - I do not need a Dr. or Pharmacy telling what I can or cannot invest in. Just like sometimes I work on my own equipment, sometimes I pay the dealer, sometimes I pay the repair shop - sometimes, I buy OEM parts, sometimes Aftermarket parts, my decision. As I have stated in other posts when I want the problem taken care immediately usally the dealer gets the call, and I pay his price. I hope you never faced with these issues - probably won't be if you retire from the military. Good Luck -

cherokee,
I am a physician, WHO REALLY, REALLY LIKES TRACTORS!:)I practiced in Canada for 2 years before coming back to the U.S. where I've practiced for ten. I'm board certified in both countries.

Other than that I'm sorry I fed the flames so I'll be quiet now! Except to say that I built a critter-proof compost bin for the first time. Also picked up a chipper. It's only been a couple weeks but I can't believe how fast it is breaking down! We used to have a pile but this is much better!

"Interestingly, it is a disprportionate amount of the sons and daughters of the poor and disenfranchised that bear the burden of military service. "

Lakeguy,
Not really sure where you're going with that. If you're implying that the US Army is taking advantage of the lower class by enticing inner-city high school dropouts to join their service (no GED required), I'd have to disagree. I don't think that taking a kid off the streets, replacing his .22 pistol and pants around his knees with an M-16A4 and BDUs and paying him $34,000 a year (or over $40k for an E-2 in a combat zone) is a bad thing. Of course when we lower the recruiting standards the end result is a sub-standard armed force, but in the fifth year of the Iraq war, with the US Army running on empty for the past two years, that's what it's come to.

Say the kid decides it's not a bad career, and stays in beyond his initial 4-year obligation. At that point he's a sergeant (E-5) making $45k a year (not counting deployment pay/re-enlistment bonuses). While he's on active duty he finishes his GED, and starts taking a few college courses, and maintains a 3.0 average (being reimbursed for 75% of the fees by the government WITHOUT using his GI bill). He applies for a commissioning program, and gets his degree (using the GI bill, while being paid full time as a sergeant during college). Eight to ten years into it he becomes a lieutenant, and continues the promotions through the officer ranks, making a salary his boys back on the block could never dream of. At around 15-18 years the mustang (prior enlisted officer) tops six figures. At 20 years, he retires, pockets the pension, and takes on a secondary career as a civilian government employee for slightly more than his previous salary; he now has medical care and a steady income for life. He buys 30 acres and a few horses in Virginia, puts his kids through Georgetown, and never looks back.

Culturally, it's a completely level playing field. Racial or sexual discrimination is absolutely not tolerated (the highly revered CO of the largest Marine Corps Installation on the East Coast is a black female).

I can't imagine a better escape from poverty than the US military. All it takes is a strong work ethic, average intelligence, heterosexual orientation, an aversion to narcotics, and an ability to perform while scared out of your mind.

Of course, the entire scenario is predicated on the fact he didn't get his legs blown off by an IED in the first year, or shot out of the sky by a shoulder-fired SA-16 in the tenth year. But that's where the love of your country and willingness to sacrifice kicks in--if it's not in you, no amount of money will get you to put yourself in harm's way, especially if you have a family.

Here is a link that might be useful: enlisted pay charts

No I'm definitely not putting down the services. In fact they're the ultimate equal opportunity employer.
I am going to try to stay within the context of this forum (better late than never) but just want to say I do not mean to offend.
Gotta dig some trenches for irrigation pipes this w/e. Whooo-heww!

o dear... think I'm gonna puke

bunnyman,
They have pills for that.

Speaking of CEO pay excesses, consider this:

"The top bosses at the top 20 investment shops earned an average of $657.5 million for the year, according to data cited by the "Executive Excess 2007" report. Renaissance Technologies' James Simons led the way, earning $1.5 billion. Steven Cohen at SAC Capital and Kenneth Griffin at Citadel Investment Group ran neck and neck for second place. Each got $1.2 billion."

These guys made as much in 10 minutes as the "average Joe" makes all year. Here's the entire article.

CEO Pay

-Deerslayer

OK, itÂs been about two months since this turned into a bunch of social diatribes.

To think that a mower for some unknown reason can't be designed to cut a typical residential yard is simply laughable. You don't need fabricated decks and school bus transmissions to move it all, either, for non commercial use.

That residential reason exists today, and manufacturer's are filling it. I think Deere fills it just fine, as do others. I looked at 17 or more mowers for my 2 acres, and the Deere Z425 is more than adequate and the part numbering scheme never alluded me at all. No more than the commercial system would to an ignorant buyer. To an uninformed buyer it's ALL confusing. Not one numbering system or the other.

Bigger can just means heavier and more costly just to support the weight. Then you add in extreme durability on top of it and costs jump in a hurry. Sometime durability hurts performance of the cut, too. A fabricated deck is often times inferior to a stamped deck due to the inability to form it the way the aerodynamics require. You just can't get as complex a deck shape with eight gauge steel plates.

Oh, I'm a skinny American who mowed 2 acres (24 hours!) every weekend for three months with a Lawn Boy push mower. Now if that thing can do it, and last for ten years, I imagine the Z425 will too, but it is 24 times faster!

rower30 my man, Enlighten me on Numbering systems, just what does Z425 mean as compared to Z445 or compared to Z225?
And then what does Z425 mean as compared to a GT275?
And then what does 2040 mean as compared to a 2020?
And then what does JS25 mean as compared to a JS35 and JS45?
All this equipment is in or has been in the John Deere Line up.