Just lay down the newspaper wherever you want the new garden bed, start throwing your compostable materials in, carbon (browns) and nitrogen (greens) directly plant in the spring. No need to till, thats the whole Idea of lasagna beds. good luck.

Lasagna beds are wonderful. No need to till first. I have had better results with thick, corrugated cardboard than paper. Just lay down cardboard, top with greens and browns, and let it rot. Don't remove the cardboard, don't till as it will disturb those organisms which are working for you. Everything will rot where it is and leave you with a wonderful garden bed.

There are many wonderful threads on lasagna beds on the soil forum. Unfortunately the GW search function still doesn't seem to be working. But if you look there you will find information.

Karen

Here is a link that might be useful: lasagna

No need at all to till. I think either cardboard or newspaper will work equally well. My local Library has Pat Lanza's book on Lasagna Gardening and it is a fun read. It is never too late to do lasagna. It does not need to "work" or rot before you plant. I used a lot of straw and coffee grounds in mine because they were available and coffee grounds were the only "green" item I could find in very early Spring. You should have a 4 to 1 ratio of brown's to greens. Later on when people are mowing grass you can use grass clippings as a green. Pat Lanza recommends the lasagna bed be 18-24 inches tall so you need a lot of ingredients depending on how big your bed will be. I used shredded newspapers as a brown ingredient besides lining the grass with the whole newspapers. I also used fallen leaves and fallen pine needles. I did mulch with regular black mulch when I was done so it looked nice. Otherwise it looks kind of messy. My bed was 60 feet by 3 feet.
Joann

Starting lasagna beds in the winter, I would not expect much more than for your grass to be mostly killed off. In the spring, you should dig or till in everything and make sure everything is nice and loose. Or perhaps pile up additional lasagna materials until they're deep enough to plant into. My own experience with starting in winter was that my grass was mostly killed off, but the roots remained in the soil and made for tough growing conditions. From my reading in a Rodale book and a couple of sites, I thought this would be fine. But the WS babies and direct-sown seeds struggled pathetically, especially compared to the same babies and seeds planted elsewhere, in differently prepared soil. I ended up digging up my struggling perennial plants, turning the soil in those beds, and replanting the seedlings (in fall, they were 1/3 the size of the seedlings planted elsewhere)

I started some lasagna beds last spring and summer, and I look forward to seeing how they're different from the winter ones. In fall, I could lift up the materials and find it very wet at the soil level, with lots of bug activity. I did plant a few things into the deep lasagna: hostas, which I've had survive a winter sitting in a plastic bag, so I figured they'd be fine! I'm trying lasagna because so many others have had success, and I get really tired of digging up sod. I don't want you to have the same pathetic garden beds that I did last year, so if the soil doesn't seem loose and a great place to plant seedlings, be sure to loosen it up!

I haven't tried a cover crop before, but I'd like to try that. Sweet clover is supposed to do a lot to break up soil.

Score!
I went by our new starbucks and got a big bag of UCG!

Then on the way home, I drove through my neighborhood and scored 7 huge bags of leaves!

My neighbors are going to think i'm crazy.

Okay, headed outside to try out this WS thing. :)

it gets better........some of the bags of leaves were alredy mulched! Yippee! And i found a bag of manure in the garage. I started my first lasagna bed. Now, I can die happy. Kidding!

The biggest advantage of lasagna is NO TILLING. Tilling will disturb the beneficial microbes that are at work there. It will break the fungal hyphae.

Stage rat, I'm not sure where you got your information about tilling lasagna, but it is not recommended. I have done several lasagna beds with excellent results and I don't till.

Teacher mom: Mulched leaves are wonderful, my favotite addition. Did you remember to smother the lawn with some paper or cardboard? Also it will help if you wet the layers as you build them. They should stay moist in winter but added moisture might be needed when the weather warms. Rotting is inhibited when materials dry.

Karen

kcqrna: I was responding to the question of whether lasagna beds started in the winter would work. Mine did not, and digging/tilling was necessary in order to have good soil for plant growth. Unfortunately, my soil did not get dug up until after the growing season ended, resulting in very pathetic plants. I ended up doing twice the work because I planted and then removed and replanted.

Perhaps everyone else has had wonderful results with lasagna beds begun in January, but that was not the case with me. No one who posted on here said when their beds were made--have your good results been from lasagna beds made in the winter? I believe that winter weather severely affects the speed at which the microbial decomposition will occur, and that is why I still had grass roots and normal lawn soil that my plants couldn't grow through.

As to whether or not the lasagna gardening rules say that tilling is permitted: I was addressing whether she would have something decent into which to plant her seedlings come spring. I apologize if I have confused anyone as to what is permitted in the lasagna method. Basically, I just hope that no one else ends up with the sad little garden beds that I did, and that's why I advise assessing the soil, and tilling or digging if necessary.

If, when you go to plant, you still have something hard to dig into to plant those seedlings, you are not likely to have good plant growth. That seems so basic, doesn't it? But I believed my sources and ignored my instincts.

stage rat: Teacher mom is in zone 7, warmer than your climate or mine.

Some lasagna beds I have done in fall, but 2 smaller ones I did late last winter. I put down the cardboard early, around late Feb. I guess, when the weather started to get warm. I made my husband cut the grass early, around March maybe, to get grass clippings, and I always have a huge batch of hoarded leaves. I also used a little partially rotted compost, a little blood meal, and added ingredients as they became available, over about a month or 6 weeks, to top at 8 inches which turned out to be plenty. I topped that with wood mulch to make it look better. I covered with burlap, (technically interbay mulch), and watered often. I planted in it in May and those 2 little beds were fantastic.
Early spring, you can barely see my little wintersown seedlings
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June 7
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August
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Karen

Here is a link that might be useful: interbay mulch

Can you use oak leaves for as an ingredient in lasagna beds? That's the only leaves I have.

Yes, oak leaves are great, and I use a lot of them in both my lasagna beds and my compost. They can take a little longer to rot than some others but not much longer in my experience. They're a great addition.

Karen

Has any of you "cooked" your lasagna bed as described in the book? I just borrowed the book from our library and I'm going to try one also.

I just can't imagine coming up with 18-24 inches of "stuff" to build the garden! Do I need to put sides on the bad to hold everything in place or does it rot down quite fast? LC Grace

I totally understand what stage rat is saying regarding lasagna beds in January, they wouldn't work for me now in zone 5, as my ground is frozen solid and covered with about a foot of snow, however, I know it works great but it does have to be a little warmer in order for everything to break down.

I started my perennial beds at the end of last summer, early fall but will still need to add more to them once the weather gets a bit warmer, most likely in late February, early March, weather permitting. I've been saving up my coffee grinds and have some left over leaves that I stashed away in the shed last fall. I also plan on adding a lot of compost and manure in hopes that my beds will be in good shape for my winter sown seedlings come late spring.

Not sure what you mean by cooking lasagna. But generally, lasagna doesn't heat up, at least not much, due to low volume, depth of organic matter. It's way different from the stuff piled into a 3'x3' pile or bin. At least that has been my experience.

I also have never used 12-18" of materials, due to lack of availability. But I have been happy with the results of only about 8". And those materials don't have to be completely composted to plant in it- many people plant the same day. I have let mine sit and rot a while, but what I planted in didn't look like soil, but rather partially done compost. I could identify grass clippings, shredded paper, and leaves in most of it. Plants that size (as pictured above) had to have had roots big enough to work their way down, through the cardboard, and into old soil eventually. And I have covered them with burlap or other cotton fabric, not sure how much difference that makes. But I do love lasagna.

Since teacher mom is in zone 7 I do think that stuff would probably start to rot some in winter. It is, after all, thick mulch and the normal soil level and cardboard should be warmer than the air temperature with protection from the mulch. That's just a guess though, since I don't know where she lives or what the temps might average in winter.

Karen

Teacher mom,
I have made lasagna beds at various times of the year and second the vote for cardboard - it seems to last longer and do a better job for me than newspaper does.
If your lasagna beds aren't as broken down as you like when you're ready to plant, just add some potting or garden soil in the hole you dig. Or, for planting seeds, just make a shallow row of potting or garden soil where you want to plant them. I've had great results this way. No tilling required. If you have any stables near you, they often will let you take manure and may even have some that is composted already. Can't hurt to ask, and it's a great addition to the mix. Neighbor's bagged grass clippings are another freebie - well, that is, when we're not in a drought and the grass actually grows! :)
Have fun!
rosebush

Here are pictures of my lasagna garden in it's various stages. Some are obvious when it was being made and the last couple are what it looked like after I mulched and planted it. You can see it settled in fairly quickly. I started making it in April and finished in May. I did 10 feet at a time. Accumulated the ingredients from friends and sometimes just from bags of stuff left out for other people's trash!!! I'd yell to my DH "Stop the truck" when I saw a bag of leaves or grass clippings. He thought I was nuts but it worked. I also got stuff from people by asking on freecycle..stuff like bagged leaves. Most of the green ingredients were coffee grounds and I also used a few bags of composted cow manure that I had to buy when no other greens were available.

It did take a LOT of ingredients to make it 24 inches high but having no other experience I followed Pat Lanza's book and that's what she recommended!! She does say it doesn't need to be enclosed but mine did have some landscape timbers already in place.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lasagna Garden

I got more coffee grounds today! Are they considered greens or browns?

Also, I have a question about planting. When you plant in a lasagna bed, do you dig through the cardboard - make a little hole? Or do you let your plant's roots eventually break through?

I think I need a lot more greens.......

When I planted in my lasagna bed it was 24 inches high and the newspaper which is what I used as the first layer was way down under on the bottom. That's where your cardboard is. The purpose it to make a barrier so no grass or weeds that were growing there when you started the bed will grow up through the lasagna. You put the plants way up on the top so they are not anywhere near the bottom layer. You just shusss aside the top layers of stuff...mine was mostly straw and place you plants gently in and shusss the stuff back around the plant. To plants seeds in a lasagna bed you must top the bed with some fine topsoil or planing mix to give the seeds somewhere to take hold and grow. Then the roots grow down through all the layers. So you don't ever make holes in the cardboard you are no where near it.

kqcrna mentioned using burlap over the pile. Could I use some old carpet over the pile? Water gets through and it would keep the dogs from digging in it.

:-) Pam

I use a green manure on my established beds. It has many functions. When sown thickly, it covers the ground and prevents those late winter weeds. It stores the nitrogen in the leaves and prevents your nitrogen from leaching away. Then all you have to do in the early spring is mow it down and the nitrogen returns to the soil. It holds the bare soil in place so that it doesn't wash or blow away. It maintains the "microherd" -- the millions of organisms that maintain healthy soil. It breaks up hard ground and prevents packing from a hard rain.

I could go on and on and on and on....

I use Winter Rye, but on can use clover or wheat or hairy vetch or alfalfa or a combination. Why not check your local Seed/Feed store and see what's available? I used free Winter Wheat one year from Great Harvest Bakery. Not only did it work but I was able to make delicious wheat grass shakes! Yummy!

Burlap is cotton, a natural fiber, itself compostable. Organic material.

Carpet contains chemicals and things that might leach into the hump and the soil. I don't think I'd use it. But it doesn't need to be covered. Without, it's lasagna. With, it's interbay mulch. Both will work.

Karen

Is it possible to put too much coffee grounds in your garden soil mix? That's a major source of "green" in my compost, especially during the winter. I've been thinking of checking with Starbucks over in the city but wondered if putting a huge amount in the mix would be detrimental.

I'm in zone 5 also and will be starting from scratch. Once I rake, I'll have lots of leaves. I've got a compost bin started but it's taken forever! lol I've got old hay and a neighbor with horses across the road from an old saw mill....I think I'll have enough ingredients to get started.

Cooking the bed is described in the book. Once the bed is prepared, you can cover with black plastic and put rocks or bricks around the edges to keep it in place. The heat cooks it down faster than just letting it sit. I won't be officially planting out til May, so if I can get my bed done in April and cover it to cook for a month, hopefully I'll be able to draw in the necessary earthworms and get some good things happening. I'm building on top of hardpan dirt and rocks. This is the only way aside from bringing in a few dumptrucks of topsoil (that I'll have to amend anyway) that I can think of.

It's nice to hear that the lasagna bed theory works with less than 18-24 inches of stuff! Thanks for all the great info in this thread!!

Just a thought: If you use plastic, you might want to monitor the temp under it with a thermometer. If it gets too hot you could kill of beneficial microbes I would think, as well as worms and other good bugs. They're the guys you want. Worms will not come if the material is too hot- just like in hot compost. But even in compost I don't think it's good to let the material go over about 150 degrees. At some point you would cook the beneficial bacterial and fungi, the guys who compost for you.

I've never heard of doing this with lasagna.

Karen

I put strips of old carpet between my raised beds a couple of summers ago. I was trying to kill out bermuda grass. I'm here to say, voice of experience, that I don't recommend it.

I pulled them up early last spring and put down some black landscaping cloth I bought. The carpet had begun to smell bad, was growing some kind of red mold spores and also some black, and the grass, well, it found a way to grow THROUGH it! It also travelled across it and put down its sharp little roots about every 6 inches, through the carpet. So the carpet was hard to pull up in places. I have been told that if carpet lays on the ground long enough, it will fall apart and the strings that run across it will get into the soil and you will never be able to till there because of all the strings.

I'm not really happy with the black landscaping cloth, either. First off, it's expensive. If you buy the cheapest kind that has the lowest number of years of "life", it will just disentegrate in the sun and will be laying there in tatters.

I've also tried those round barriers that they make out of shredded tires for around trees, and I don't like them either. The lawn mower kicks them up and the Bermuda grass just wraps its arms around it and goes on.

On another Gardenweb forum, I read where someone used shingles that were left over from a roofing job. They said the lawnmower doesn't kick it up and it's really effective. I might try that this year.

ilene: I've not used landscape cloth but a lot of people have had bad experience it- stuff grows into it and through it apparently- and it too gets hard to remove. If you search the forums you will probably find a lot of threads about it.

Karen

One note of caution if wild critters have roaming access to your lasagna beds: Protect the beds when you plant out your seedlings.
I had a skunk that loved to dig up my lasagna beds when I planted out my WS seedlings last spring. Didn't eat the plants, just rummaged through the beds and destroyed a lot of new plants, especially after I watered. . .So just to err on the side of caution, you might want to protect the beds somehow when you plant out. I started using chicken wire as an arched cover for the beds until the plants were more established. But then, you might not be gardening in such a wild area. If you're in the city, just disregard the above! :)LOL

kcqrna: yes, I agree, a zone 7 winter is likely to have better breakdown of materials over the winter. I didn't think of that before. I wonder if the ground freezes at all? Thanks for posting photos and descriptions of your winter-started beds. Maybe I have pathetic microbes in my yard. :(

Regarding coffee grounds, lindakimy--when you say garden soil mix, you mean for lasagna, right? I'm just checking, in case you mean for filling jugs. Coffee grounds may affect the acidity of your soil. I measured the pH of the coffee grounds I collect, and they were just a little acidic--neutral is 7, the grounds were about 6.5. I will test my soil this spring to see what effect the grounds had on the soil pH. Over in the Soil & Compost forum, some (many? I forget) say that acidic and alkaline materials will decompose to neutral pH. I know some disagree with them, too--so I guess I'll find out for myself.

ghoghunter, I too would slam on the brakes for compostables, all last summer when I was making my summer lasagna beds. I'd also sneak down the street late at night, so I could grab my neighbor's grass clippings anonymously! That lasagna bed got at least 2' high. In winter, it sure is a lot harder to come up with materials!

Gosh I haven't started a new bed yet but..For shredded paper, I can get huge bags of it from the school district. The transportation department has to shred all documents with names address etc. I have to stop by the local Dunkin Donuts, Sheetz and Starbucks for grounds, wait till it is above 20 degrees to take the garden tractor and cart to go to the neighbors for horse, chicken and/or pig manure. Go get wood shavings from the local sawmill. Drag the chipper out for leaf mulching. I can, however sprinkle the wood ashes and start a first layer after the barrier layer with Wiggles, my bunnies manure. BTW, rabbits digest everything including seeds,(no weeds!) natures perfect pelletized fertilizer and more fun than a black composter! :-) Next I think I might ask the grocery store produce dept about greens they clean, like cabbage, lettuce etc for more green schtuff.

Greens from a grocery store! What a brainstorm! lol Why didn't I think of that! I'll write it down and prob forget where I put the paper.

grace: I'm no soil expert but that plastic in lasagna just doesn't sound good. Maybe you should ask on the soil and compost forum. The experts there might have some input for you. There are a lot of people there who are very knowledgeable about this stuff, and it might be a good idea to ask there.

Given your northern climate it probably wouldn't get hot enough in spring to get to too high a temperature, but it would still go anaerobic, get stinky, and maybe introduce disease to your bed. High enough temps (around 160 I think) will drive out worms, maybe kill some bugs as well as microorganisms that you need to do the composting for you. I really think it might be worthwhile to just ask there. Just my opinion.

If nothing else, anerobic compost stinks.

Karen

In my experience, no plastic is neccessary. Just pile up the layers and plan the seedlings. The more layers, the better your results will be.

Thanks for all the info, everyone! I need to add to my lasagna this weekend. I am thinking about raised beds for my veggie garden. I am having trouble finding 2" redwood or cedar in my town. It only comes in 1".

Has anyone seen Garden Girl videos online? She is AWESOME! Some of her videos are on youtube. She has more elsewhere on the web, but can't remember the site name. Her backyard (in a city) has been transformed into a veggie garden and home to animals that she and her family live on at least 6 months out of the year. Pretty cool!

Thanks again!

From what I've read, there are usually problems with getting old produce at the grocery store - something about liability of giving away spoiled produce?

I am making large new gardens in the back yard where I've had some trees removed, using the lasagne method. I started in Fall '06. First I lay down large sheets of cardboard (all plastic labels and tape removed) a layer or two. Then I spread about 1-2 inches of coffee grounds (with filters) I collect from the local convenience mart. I am still collecting these even with the snow, just piling the grounds in one spot and will spread them when the snow melts.

After cardboard and coffee grounds, I then spread leaves and grass clippings - collected at the town composting site or the side of the road. I actually have over 30 bags sitting out there waiting to be used. On top of that goes anything - old pumpkins, debris from the garden, compost, weeds I've pulled (hopefully no seeds), ornamental grass clippings - anything!

My lasagne beds are only about 6 inches deep - I have pretty good soil underneath already. But with the cardboard they are very effective at smothering and killing the Vinca minor and many other invasive weeds underneath - and adding lots of organic matter to the bed! Most of the work is lugging the materials around. To mix them up and make sure water penetrates, I usually turn over the beds a little using a garden fork after the weeds are killed, but they are easy to turn.

I create the beds from Spring through Fall - and will plant them the following Spring. So I usually wait at least 6 months to plant, because I'm smothering weeds and prefer the cardboard and coffee grounds to be broken down. But you can make the beds anytime of the year and some people plant in them much sooner than that too.

I never read about liability and old produce. Maybe I will find out when I ask at the chain stores. We also have Mennonite grogery stores that I can ask at. Although, they may use the leftovers themselves.
I can get all the leaf compost I want from the town borough I am told, but I always wonder about that, not knowing what sprays etc people use, and the borough has not a clue how to compost, they admit that.

For me , the best time to start new beds is the late winter, I am way too busy in the Spring and Summer, Fall is school starting and a big fair I enter in.
This year the leaves didn't even fall off the trees till November, so I have to do that this spring, too.

lcgrace, my new years resolution is NOT to put anything in a "safe" place, that way I won't forget where that "safe" place was only to find it when I was looking for another "safe" place item, lol.

I have years of experience with lasagna gardening growing veggies. I live in zone 8 (actually more 7) but i have started some lasagna beds just before planting so it's maybe the same as start them in Jan in zone 5. I found that it does not matter what you add to it and when you start them, but matter how you handle your plants when you plant and during first season. If bed is "raw" I made small holes and add soil where i plant my plants and i fertilize my plants first month or two with fish fertilizer because "cooking" process consumes nitrogen. Later in season when part of organic mater will compost i don't fertilize any more. My veggies never suffer in lasagna beds even when i do bed just before planting.

I've started beds in Spring and Summer and planted right into them, but I've started in fall and winter. This year, to extend a couple of beds, I put down cardboard in the area. I don't have to worry about wetting it, because the snow will do that for me. Then, in the Spring, I'll put down manure, kitchen scraps, coffee grounds, and soil.
Either way, it isn't until it is warm that the critters are awake around here to start working, but it saves me having to water down the cardboard and gives me two less things to do come Spring. I just have to make sure I get the other layers on before the sun starts drying the cardboard out.

Linda

I meant to say, "but I've started lasagne beds in fall and winter, too"

I guess I should clarify the plastic on the lasagna bed.....

Black plastic will keep the soil at a warmer temp and allow decomposition to get a head start a little earlier than waiting for warmer temps. The plastic comes off in just a few weeks ... well before it's time to plant. I don't know if it will help or hurt, just sharing info.

Grocery stores probably cannot give away spoiled produce, however, anywhere that makes fresh salads or has a salad bar (our grocery stores have them) may give away greens, cores, skins, peels, etc.. I haven't had a chance to check yet.

I'll be so glad when it's warm enough to actually do something outside rather than sit here and plan. :)

Your right about the cold grace! Was mighty nippy last night in Pa, think we had 1 degree.

Although, I was doing my calendar for last frost date, moon signs, etc.. and decided I have 6 weeks to clean every room in the house, cause after that...major seed starting begins.
Planning is good, keeps my gardening ADHD in check, :-)

Grace: Compost can go anaerobic in a day, growing all kinds of nasty pathogens. Until you've smelled such a thing, you can't imagine the stench that can be created. Did you ask about that plastic on the soil and compost forum? What did the experts say?

Karen

Hi Karen, I'm only going by what the book says....lol I haven't had a chance to ask the others yet. It will be interesting to see what they say and give it a try. This seems to be the easiest and least expensive way for me to "make" soil happen in my rock infested ground.

Busylizzy - will you start your inside seeds in about 6 weeks? I got my timing all wrong last year! lol I had great seedlings growing into wonderfully healthy plants...until they hit garden! :)

Thank goodness springtime and planting comes every year...another chance to try again.