I cut them back to cut below the candle branching or to the level of the rest of the bush, but not to the ground. This will send out new growth along the rest of the cane. A lot of the floribundas types/chinas, polyanthas, etc do this.

Remember there's a lot of Tea Rose in these two, and they want their next cane to come out from within the terminal spray.
Your plants want to grow taller. It's your decision as to whether you let them be all that they can or that you force them into smaller sizes.

In my own garden, (YMMV) these roses respond best to a removal of the blooms
at the point of abcission.
The rose then puts up new growth, often from -- yes -- within the inflorescence.
Or at least very close to it.
Treated in that manner, the plants fill out well, and bloom A LOT.
Cut back harder, they -- do not.

We found that the same technique, sort of a modification of "bend and snap" deadheading,
was ideal for International Herald Tribune.

Jeri

I definitely do not deadhead below the candelabra and find no evidence that the candelabras prevent the plants from building a sound bush. I prune these only in winter and then rather sparingly but in the same way I prune Teas. For deadheading, I generally grab the entire candelabra in one hand the cut just below all the blooms, making no effort at all to remove any part of the inflorescence but the bloom. The peduncles dry and fall off. Meanwhile the rose, not I, decides where to build.

It occurs to me that what may bother some folks is that at least initially, that tall cane, topped by a "candelabra," sticks up above the rest of the bush?

But if you follow berndoodle's method, the whole plant eventually grows to match, and makes a plant of uniform size.

Jeri

Everyone, Thanks so much. This is exactly the type of information I was hoping to get.

Robert

This is so helpful. I get these candelabras on Alister Stella Gray as well and have always wondered where to cut them off. Now I know.

Do any of you have a picture of these roses? I have found that Marie Pavie is not that good as a no spray rose, but I think Perle should be. My husband does not like the little flowers on Marie, and I would like to see if the flowers on Perle are larger.

Thanks,
Sammy

Sammy, they're probably a bit larger, but Perle d'Or blooms are by no
means big. Think 'Mlle. Cecile Brunner' for the general size.

Jeri

Depends entirely on your climate - there is no such thing as the rose 'wanting' to grow in a particular way if it gets cut to the ground by frost or dies back from Winter cold or drying Spring winds. Those not so fortunate to garden in California or the American South (and I would love to:) may need to adapt their cultural techniques accordingly - and that includes all those living in the areas where these roses were bred.

These endless arguments about whether pruning is 'right' or 'wrong' are getting so old.

Best wishes, and of course, just my opinion.
Jon

So, Jon, don't leave us breathless. How do YOU do it? It might work here, too. And even if it doesn't, the differences are so interesting.

Sherry

My Perle d'or in Maryland is 2' high after six years. I have tried a variety of different pruning methods and it definitely doesn't want to get bigger any way you prune it. I usually cut the candlelabras back to the height of the bush for aesthetic reasons.

> I usually cut the candlelabras
> back to the height of the bush
> for aesthetic reasons.

*** If you cut the canes back to "the height of the bush," it makes sense
that the height of the bush would then not increase.

If you did not cut the canes back, there would be more and more tall canes.
Eventually, the whole plant would probably be taller.
Maybe not as tall as it would get in CA, but taller.

Here are a couple of Perle d'Or (old plants!) next to a parked car.
I took this un-glam shot specifically to show plant size.
This photo was made in Sacramento, CA, which is 9a-9b, according
to the plant-hardiness map.
Photographed in mid-September, with trees already changing to their Fall colors.

{{gwi:275969}}

I think that, if you want to let the plant reach a size that's natural
to it, you're going to go through an "awkward stage" on the way to that.
Sort of like a teenaged boy whose arms and legs seem too long :-)

Eventually, the plant evens out, and comes into good proportion,
just as a teenaged boy eventually "grows into" his feet.

Jeri

***How do YOU do it? ***

Exactly like this:

Here is a link that might be useful: Pruning - the Wessex Way

Isn't that beautiful!!! Jerri's is outstanding, and so tall. Your blooms are beautiful.I just needed a little bit bigger than Marie Pavie. Marie was ok until she began to draw back because of black spot. Perle has a reputation of being clean of black spot, and you have sold me.

We can grow the rose in our zone, but I don't think it should suprass 4 or5 feet. I love the color.

Thank you so much for the post.

Sammy

I do believe that what Anita said was exactly Jon's point. It does vary by climate and what you want out of a rose. So, the constant drone of don't prune this rose or don't prune that rose might be right for your garden but it isn't necessarily right for mine. First of all, it doesn't hurt a rose to prune it, despite advice to the contrary. Secondly, I don't want a 30 foot wall of Perle d'Or in my garden, as lovely as it might seem in that parking lot. Perhaps what he tires of is certain people giving the same very climate specific advice to people who live in very different conditions or presenting that information as an absolute truth in all gardens. I'm sure that there are people who don't grow some very fine and beautiful old roses in their garden because they've read here that the rose will be 10 feet tall and wide and "can't" or "shouldn't" be pruned. You are so right. One size doesn't fit all.

Carol

I would like to add that, since I originated this thread, I have left alone the candelabra like canes from the spent flowers. These canes did not appear to be the type of canes from which new growth would emerge, so it was counter-intuitive not to cut them off. Lo and behold! New growth has come from the tips of the candelabras. Yes, the plant looks awkard now, but I can see how it will build its structure. This pruning (or actually not prpuning) technique was counter-intuitive to me, so I surely appreciate the thread.

Robert

On each side of our patio in the back are rose beds. In the front is a strip that had 4 Marie Pavies and 4 Outta the Blues. The Outta.... are gone, and we will remove Marie. If I replace them with Perle 'd Or, do you think that in Tulsa, OK, zone 7A that they will grow much taller than 3 or 4 feet? I don't want to work to keep them low.

I love the color, and think I want the rose. Also do you think the mature size is any larger than MP? (I don't cut many roses back in the spring, and MP was only about 4 feet tall.

Sammy

It is very climate specific. Jeri, my bush will NOT get taller even with no pruning, which I have tried. For me Perle de Or is a MUCH smaller bush than Marie Pavie. Marie Pavie grows 3-4' here and I have to prune it to keep it in bounds of its allotted space, and Perle seems to stop at 2' and doesn't quite fill as much space as I'd like.

Or, do you think that in Tulsa, OK, zone 7A that they will grow much taller than 3 or 4 feet?

*** I think you'd have to find someone growing it in that climate, to know.
Even then . . .
How things grow varies quite a lot between my garden, and one 10 miles inland.
You might have to be the "guinea pig" who tries it out.

Jeri

I think it is good to hear from people in all parts of the country. If I think that my rose will grow like a rose in California, that is my fault. I like to see what a rose can do. Also Jeri is always the first to mention not only her specific area of the country, but that it is different from the rest of us.

I let my Penelope roses grow, and before our ice storm they were about a 10 foot square, and about 8 feet high. I enjoyed showing pictures of them, but people should know that the were an exception.

My rose investment this year will be quite costly. By spring I will have cleared away about 100 roses. I simply do not want to watch them fade away. I found this thread and brought it back to find out if Perle would be a good replacement for Marie. Of all places, the long strip between the patio and the rest of my yard should be pretty.

I fully enjoyed Jeri's roses, AND everyone else's comments.

Sammy

I for one am coming from a starting point of ignorance, so when I say "How?", it's because I don't know how. What is the problem with someone offering how they do it? That's what I asked for.

Sammie mentioned that she had a Penelope that got to be 10x8. Well, I have a Bubble Bath that I'd like to keep a maximum of 7x7. Do I just wack the ends off so it looks like an ugly buzz cut? That doesn't seem right to me. Azaleas are totally different plants, I know, but with those I like to vary the cuts so the bush looks the same but smaller in a naturally uneven way. Is rose pruning ever done that way? I can see from my BB that she is going to have long canes in a fountain effect, so how do I shorten these long curving canes so the new growth fills in in an attractive way and the mound is smaller?

Thanks.

Sherry

I have a three-year-old Bubble Bath. So far, I've kept it under control by hoisting it over a 10-ft-rebar tripod. It's very lovely with the canes cascading down. Don't know what I'll do when it starts to "leap"!
Anita

*** hoisting it over a 10-ft-rebar tripod

Anita, how? Draw me a picture.

Sherry

Sherry, sorry if you took my reply personally - it was not aimed to hurt. Sometimes English humour doesn't translate . . . my bad, as I believe Americans say :)

I try not to give advice from such a distance, for reasons that should be obvious from the thread. But for what it is worth, my take is that there is no right or wrong - only what works for your rose, in your location, regardless of variety or class. Half the fun of working with roses is making those discoveries - as Anita said. The fact that many rosarians in the 150 or so years since these cluster-flowered types of rose have been in popular commerce have come to the same conclusions, and written about it, doesn't detract from the pleasure of finding it out for yourself.

I understand that some come from a rose background of growing Hybrid Teas and have been indoctrinated with the 'cut back to a five-leaflet' or other silly rule, and it is great that they discover that rule has *never* had meaning in the world of Old Fashioned roses, where we are growing woody, flowering shrubs rather than blooming bushes.

I know it is tempting to look for rules - but roses will always break them :)

Best wishes
Jon

It is a gardener's choice how to grow its roses. I don't agree with the statement that certain roses sulk after pruning. It could be right, but so far I didn't come across such roses. I, for example, heard many time here that Teas sulk if you prune them hard, Lady H is the one that is mentioned especially often. I do prune all my Teas (LH included)and they are blooming their heads off and are big and beautiful, never missed a beat after prunning. Of course, I don't mean cutting them like HTs. I mean just taking approx 1/3 to 1/2 off to keep them in bounaries and this works really well for me to build a structure and have lots of lowers. I believe that in my climate "sulking after pruning" is just a myth similar to "don't prune oncebloomers before spring bloom." Both are just not true in my climate. I can prune them or not, this is my choice, but none of these will hurt them or prevent from blooming. All depends on what you want to achieve. I don't need monsters in my small garden, I also don't want floppy oncebloomers, so I prune to the desired size and structure. Chooose what works for you in your garden. There is no right or wrong.
Olga

P.S. My pruned in spring Perle d'Or is 5x4 feet now.

As a relatively new rose gardener, understanding the size potential of a rose helps one decide where it will fit. I may choose to grow a potentially 10 foot Tea in a 5 or 6 foot spot and prune accordingly, but I would not want to put that same rose in a spot for a 3 or 4 foot bush. I appreciate knowing all sides to the pruning question. As there are new forumers appearing here all the time, it does not seem like a waste of time to revisit the pruning issue on a regular basis. I for one have learned a lot from this thread. Thank you.

OK, my Bubble Bath is in the ground 7 months and has half a dozen looping canes and the twiggy original growth. I have it tied up around some stakes a couple feet high to keep it off the ground, assuming these and future canes will thicken up and be self-supporting. One cane about 6' long looks to be putting out the beginnings of a flower cluster and is breaking new growth along the cane. I'm assuming this new growth will become more looping canes, and the bush will build and build in this way. For this mounding type hybrid musk after it blooms do I simply shorten 1/3 to 1/2 off each cane above a bud to bring it down to the size I want? Which will spark new growth? Also, how long do you wait to prune/trim very young plants? A year or two? I trimmed back my year-old Natchitoches Noisette earlier this summer because it was in a very open state without much foliage. I pretty much wacked near a bud all around, and it has thickened up, but it was a decent sized bush at the time - more than 4' wide by 3' tall. So, am I on the right track?

And Jon, sorry to have such tender feelings. Your apology is appreciated, and you're right. I didn't get the joke. Will try harder next time. You've always been such a nice fellow. Thought you must have been having a bad day.

Sherry

Don't you think that's one of the disadvantages of email and forums? it's so easy to misread something whereas if you were standing there eyeball to eyeball you'd be able to see the smile or wink.

But this is tremendously better than having no one to talk to about old roses! and I really like the hashing out of ideas and ways of doing things that the forum provides.

The piano video was really lovely; Jon, do you prune roses with an ipod playing? Felco's and Yo Yo Ma for me! Gean

Oh, and I thought my computer got a virus :-). I personally love the Moonlight Sonata, the sadness of it somehow connects with pruning time in my mind. Only since I became interested in gardening have I become acutely aware of the passage of seasons.
But it was liberating to read how people scoff at rigid rules. It is much more fun to experiment and do what works for you rather that worry whether you are doing the "right" thing.
Masha

Gean,
Yes, I usually listen to music in those first hours when we have the garden to ourselves - before visitors arrive. Those Brahms Ballades have been my music this past week.

Sometimes the impossibility of explaining working with roses is more easily expressed by music. Beyond rules and technique and ego-trips there is a place where - as in that Ballade - full concentration is applied to something that is apparently very simple.

You know if someone has 'got it' if their garden is beautiful without explanation - look, for instance, at Maurizio's photos on another thread about colour combinations. All the reading and learning of rules in the world wouldn't work if there was not such a place in Maurizio's heart. Other people's writings just help to explain it, but we don't need to know his 'rules' to understand that it is beautiful.

Best wishes
Jon

I use the grab the head and whack just below the blooms method with Cecile and International Herald Tribune, Greetings and others with that growth habit....until they get too big for their britches and then I prune accordingly. Sometimes, they do not get deadheaded and they manage that just fine also. I'm always fascinated with where a rose will choose to grow from....leaving them along long enough for them to make that decision teaches you about the rose's habits. I was slow to catch on to this at first as I started with HTs. Now I'm maybe too relaxed about letting them do their thing.

Jon, when I listened to the Brahms and applied it to the pruning comment, I understood you to mean that pruning is an art, as gardening, is finally an art form.

I think of it as a science first - chemistry, botany, horticulture - You can understand the science of how a plant grows well, but to know what and how and where it all comes together to make a place of beauty...? It's felt and known beyond words. It's not taught, but a gardener must know his paints well.

I stood wordless before Leonardo da Vinci's painting of a young woman at the National Gallery of Art. How does one arrange paint in such a way as to so capture a soul? I don't know, but its power of beauty is beyond words for me.

I hope all of that doesn't sound trite. Gean