Wow, that really was a really good form for an Ailanthus.

Question: How ya gonna ensure that sucker doesn't grow back?

personally.. i prefer oaks ...

if you have any future potential of wanting to do anything in the yard .. besides grow grass.. stay away from maples ... and many other shallow rooted trees ...

and then there are a few tree which i call park or golf course trees.. which are simply too big for that space.. like willow ...

stay away from anything marketed as FAST GROWING ....

there should be many posts about WHAT TREE SHOULD I PICK ... you might want to think about some of the smaller flowering trees ... to keep a nice scale between yard size and plant size ... redbud.. crabapple ... cherry ... etc ... i dont know the zone of RI and that might help the discussion ...

congrats on removing a problem.. and creating an opportunity ...

ken

I think Ken grows hostas under some of his trees. Gardening around the base of a tree can be 'challenging,' more so with some (some maples - dense, fibrous and shallow root systems) than others. I don't try to plant anything near the base of a tree, but your mileage may vary.

"It'd be great to eventually have a big and full tree worthy of my hammock!"

Big in your case is had to judge. Big compared to a decent-size yard, or big compared to a 3-story house? Also, you mentioned you used to look out the 3'rd story window and only see leaves. And you mention shade.

Do you want to see over the tree canopy from that 3'rd story window? Do you want shade mainly on the yard, or quite a bit on the house? I suspect a tree that can shade that house could be out-of-scale to the yard (or not; your yard's not tiny!), if that's an issue.

I'd start by picking a few trees in rough size classes and from broad groups, to get a sense of what size tree I wanted, and maybe roughly what type. Just picture each in the yard, and consider if you think that one would work. I'm not familiar with your local conditions, so I don't know how well these would work, but just to start the brainstorming:

1.) Shantung Maple, a large Bloodgood Japanese Maple, a Paperbark Maple. I'm aiming for trees under 30' here. In another thread someone indicated paperbark's not really a 'shade' tree, I think.

2.) October Glory Red Maple - aiming for a tree around 40 feet tall, full-bodies.

3.) Sugar Maple or Red Oak - 'the big guns,' tall, big canopy, lots of shade.

Richard.

I'm with fa: you are going to have sucker problems for a couple years, and the roots underground will be rottin, which will privelege wood-destroying fungi, giving you a better chance to have a tree at risk for mortality or suppression if you replant in that spot.

And I also agree that was a nice form for that tree. Why not go for a sugar maple or red oak?

Dan

sink 2 4 x 6's ... and hang your hammock ...

unless you are under 50 pounds and 12 years old .. it will be a life time before you are swinging from a tree in that yard.. tarzan .. lol ...

i planted a 6 foot bare root oak.. 10 years ago ... and i would say.. it is 25 feet tall.. and 6 to 8 inches diameter ... BUT I AM NOT SURE IT WOULD HOLD UP hammock... SO THAT REALLY SHOULD NOT EVEN BE IN YOUR EQUATION.. imho ...

we need an answer .. WHAT IS YOUR GOAL ... other than us listing a couple hundred trees ????

once you define the light at the end of the tunnel... perhaps we can move you in that direction ...

ken

Thanks for the replies.

I'm having the stump grinder come in next week to remove the stump from the Ailanthus, and the stump near the house. Hopefully, that will deter any future growth from the Ailanthus. I will not be planting in that spot again, it's far too close to the corner of my lot.

As for purpose, I'd like some ideas for getting some shade in my yard, and breaking up the monotony of having a yard will only grass. In other words, I'd like to give my yard some focal points by using a couple of trees.

My question is, however, what types of trees are well suites for small yards like mine, which ones are good choices for overall maintenance (ie, No berry trees causing the birds to crap purple and black all over the cars in the driveway... Been there done that). I don't want a tree that grows so large it overwhelms my modest yard.

I guess I have a dream of having lovely old-growth trees in the yard which are ~80 years old. The kind of trees that CAN hold up a hammock. Of course, I can't get that in 10 years, so Ken, you are correct. A hammock stand or 4x6s would be necessary. We can all dream, can't we...

So I know that I should stay away from maples because of the shallow roots, which would cause issues with my grass.

Richard, thank you for your detailed post. One of my main concerns is size (height, that is). I'd like to have the yard somewhat shaded. I would still like full sun in some spots, but shade in others. I definitely do not want a tree as tall as the 3rd floor of my house. Perhaps 1 1/2 to 2 "stories" would be as tall as I would want it to get. I don't want the issues with roofing and cleaning gutters...

I've got Chief Architect plans of my property and house, so using the suggestions I get, I can place a tree and advance the age of the tree to visualize what it will look like and how tall it will get.

I too have never seen a tree of heaven with such a nice form OR that big!

Maybe you took out the queen? We can only hope.

The property can really use a landscape design.

Tall and narrow ok? The similar Metasequoia and Taxodium both grow fairly quickly had have as non-messy fruit and flowers as anything.

They can be left limbs to the ground be limbed up for a more polite trunk and hammock installation. I know Metasequoia grows as well at Princeton New Jersey as anywhere. Rhode Island isn't that far away.

I dropped a few plants in Chief and set the plants to 20 years growth, full maturity. Here's the results:

{{gwi:352187}}

I think the Red Oak is way too tall at full maturity, while the Shantung Maple is a bit too small. I think I'd like to find something (preferably not a maple, of course) that is between the height of the Shantung Maple and the Red Maple...

I won't be planting the tree(s) near the house to avoid roof/gutter problems, so I think the area to the back right corner of the garage would be a good place to think about putting a tree... Any suggestions?

Have you thought of doing some borders and foundation planting? I'm talking shrubs and flowers of course, in addition to trees.

As for a tree that's in between shantung (aka purpleblow maple) and red maple, unfortunately we really do have a shortage of decent medium sized trees. A proven tree that would be perfect for a lot this size really doesn't exist. Unless you count the flowering pears which are very problematic on number of other levels.

Like cheryl, I'm having trouble coming up with something. As I was driving out to the nursery today, I thought I'd keep an eye out for something, but nothing that will grow there.

Dan

Did you mean "between the size of the Shantung maple and the Red Oak" instead of "between the size of the Shantung maple and the Red Maple"?

I'd say that you'd be fine planting a large tree towards the back of the lot but it looks like the neighbor to the rear is very close to the property line. I wouldn't want to plant so close so as to have branches overhang their property too much.

One thing that would look really pretty in my opinion and also be quite useful would be American ironwood (Carpinus caroliniana). It's smaller tree, but several of them planted along the fence would give you some screening and ornamental appeal. They are very slow growing though and you might have a hard time finding them.

One of my favorite trees is Katsura. I must say that the rear corner of the lot looks like a good spot as the root zone would be nicely shaded. But looks so close to the the neighbor's house. A couple of Katsuras along the back, man that would be a dream come tree for me.

If you're looking for quick and easy, the various flowering cherries (yoshino for example), while not exactly trouble-free, would fall into the quick and easy (and relatively cheap) category. I'd plant several along the fence. Serviceberry is another one but they're higher maintenance.

You might also use Cornus Mas and maybe hawthorne or some crabapples.

If you look at the flowering cherries, is longevity much of a concern? I've planted a couple in the past; it's my understanding they are not particularly long-lived trees (might last you, but not really a 'legacy tree').

Richard.

Thanks again for the replies.

I've been trying a bunch of trees, and it seems as though a 30 foot tree would be the perfect size. I'd really like to find a tree with a thick canopy and a flowering tree of some sort. I'm not really big on coniferous trees...

I really love the look of Purpleleaf Plumbs. It's a tree full of character. I'd love to find one that looked like THIS. .

Would a Purpleleaf plumb do well here in New England with full sun? My soil is neutral. I'm thinking that the best area for me would be right behind the garage, in the middle of the yard.

{{gwi:352188}}

See... this is why it's a good idea to research trees before you plant them.

First of all purple leaf plum isn't going to reach anywhere close to 30'. They're very prone to pests and very very very short lived.

Second of all, I would also suggest that you don't plant anything smack dab in the center of the yard like that. It renders the yard completely useless. If you ever go to sell the house, people will look into the backyard and say "there's no backyard".

Instead what I would suggest is putting in a grass-free border around the back yard. This is where in my opinion, you would want to plant trees and shrubs.

you are cracking me up with plumb ... lol ... OMG... and you link to a 108 year old tree.. which you covet ... what a hoot ... lol ...

plum have serious black knot issues ... extremely short lived .. when talking tree life ...

if you want purple.. look for a slow growing copper beech ... Fagus sylvatica 'Riversii' ... there are some incredible specimens at longwood gardens .... there is a very fine pendula version .... Fagus sylvatica 'Pendula'

there is also the tricolor beech ... ignore the dwarf ...
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{{gwi:242703}}

but do understand.. that no tree STOPS at some magical height .... its all about how fast it grows to a height.. and for how many decades it will grow beyond that height.. though some slow down with long life ...

what about redbud???
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{{gwi:329088}}

what about a red flowering chestnut???? Aesculus x carnea 'O'Neill Red' .. with the purple beech behind it ...
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have you told us where you are in new england ...????? might make a difference ...

life is too short to settle for the ordinary ...

good luck

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: flip back over to the WEB side for info

In many places purple-leaf plum is trite. In all places, they are buggy and short-lived and problematic. IMHO it would be among the last things I would choose.

I do think that maybe ken's tri-color beech might be a decent compromise there, what with all the neighbors able to enjoy its uniqueness as well.

Dan

Except that the mature size is way over the desired size and there's nowhere to put it. And it's fabulous if you ignore the fact that the foliage isn't going to look like that when planted in the full sun scenario that is the OP's garden.

Please excuse my ignorance; this, of course, is why I'm asking here... If I knew the answer, I'd have a tree in the ground by now.

One of the reasons I removed the Ailanthus was because of the neighbors to the back of the yard. I'd get complaints every year about branches falling along their yard and on their roof.

This is why I am a bit apprehensive to plant a tree so close to the boundary. I'm wondering about having a grass-less area in the corner of the lot, instead, so I could place the tree far enough from the edge of the property. Then I could plant some ground cover and shrubs and whatnot around the tree. I'd also get some privacy, as the house behind has a 2nd entry right at the back of my yard, and a full tree in the corner would be perfect . I haven't checked with the city as far as fencing goes, but I think a lower fence with a tree would be far better than just an 8' stockade alone.

If I did this, would I be able to go with a maple of some kind? How far do the roots extend out in relation to the girth of the tree itself?

{{gwi:352192}}

do not apologize any further..

it is suggested.. that a tree is twice as big below ground as above.. though not shaped the same ...

below are pix of maple roots.. and you can see.. why you will not garden under them.. in the very long future ... and you will not stop them from the surrounding properties ..

{{gwi:234645}}
{{gwi:208954}}

i think you will have a very hard time planting a tree within 5 feet of the old tree ... and i do not suggest you plant in the grindings.. unless you remove all the soil.. too much wood wont work ...

if you do NOT buy 'fast growing' or carp trees.. you will most likely be long dead before neighbors start complaining of dropped limbs, in all but the most severe storms ...

blocking the view .. will probably involve planting closer to your house.. rather than way out back ... and i dont see you planting a tree to block the view from your 3rd story ... in your lifetime ...

you have created a box.. and climbed in it too fast ... why are you limiting yourself to the edges of your yard ...

what about two trees ... or one.. using the back of the garage line.. straight across the yard .... thereby creating a privacy zone from there to the back of the house??? think outside your box

no comment on the purple beech??? .. nor where are you????

ken

In light of this new information, I'd like to lock in my suggestions from last night. Ironwood. Small tree. Good for privacy. Strong wood that doesn't drop a lot of twigs or anything. Surface rooting isn't a problem like with many maples. An all around good small tree. Why stop with just one though? I'd stick one on either side of the gate, another one in between the two outbuildings and a few more along the open fence. If you so chose, you could even hedge the thing. I hate to see that but they do tolerate shearing.

Sorry Ken, I am in Rhode Island.

With the responses about taking up the whole yard with a tree right in the middle, I figured it might've been a better idea to think about planting near the corner.

But, if it won't grow well because of the old tree, then it's not worth it. A tree would be fine behind the garage in the middle of the width of the lot. That would give me a shady area behind the garage, while also giving me the bulk of the yard directly behind the house and to the right of the garage clear and open for whatever I'd like to do down the road... The Tricolor Beech and the Redbud are both very beautiful trees. Ironwoods are very nice as well, but don't seem to have the same visual appeal as the previous two. I'm not too crazy about the Red Flowering Chestnut, but the Purple Beech behind it is VERY nice.

What great, unique trees! The colors are something else.

Redbuds are very short lived McFlora. They almost always look bad in the open. And they drop a lot of junk.
Beeches are 100' trees and the tricolor cultivars start to suffer around midsummer if they are not in a somewhat shaded location.

Neither of these meet your criteria of being a medium sized tree. And not really good choices for the site. One of them is messy. Notice that Ken's garden has a fair amount of shade.

See, there's more to it than the amount of ornamental appeal.

Give the Arbor Day tree wizard a try and see if it pulls up some trees to consider.

Here is a link that might be useful: Arbor Day Tree Wizard

Thanks gostlyvision, it sure did...

Looking at all of the threes that came up for my area and soil and shade, I'm staring to look at some slightly smaller trees.

The Prairifire Flowering Crabapple, White, Pink and Red Dogwood are by far my favorites. Downsides to them?

They are all prone to various diseases. The prairiefire crabapple is very pretty in bloom and a little faster growing than the dogwoods in my experience.

You need to research if your area is prone to fire blight, athracnose, cedar-apple rust, and a couple more that escape me at the moment before you make your selection(s).

If you insist on a dogwood... cornus mas, cornus kousa.

Several crabapples are rather resistanct to their primary diseases of Fire Blight, cedar apple rust, mildew, and apple scab. Prairifire Flowering Crabapple is generally considered to have good to excellent resistance to all of them. But they are far from the only ones. Royal Raindrops, Scarlet Brandy Wine, Sugartyme and others are all good candidates for disease resistant crabapples.

Arktrees

Yes I forgot to add that about the PF crabapple to my post above. That is why I, myself, went with PF at my house. We have junipers everywhere and I wanted something with good resistance to that. And they are mucho available in nurseries and BBS around here. Thanks, Ark!

If you choose to go the dogwood route, cornus kousa "milky way" is so supposed to have very good resistance to athracnose. I believe arktrees has one or more of those at his house.

On a side note to ark:
Have you checked out the 12z nam today? 3+" covering a pretty large area tonight!

Stay safe :)

Glad it was helpful to you, Nick. It led me to choose a sourwood and bald cypress for my back yard (had a very big pine tree die and need replacing) and a live oak the original owners planted too close to the house that'll probably go in about 5 years. Need shade badly down here under the terrible Texas sun, I'd tree the whole lot if I could! lol

Good luck on your tree choice.

j0nd03,
Yes I have seen the NAM, the newest GFS (at the time of this writing) has a heavy rain bullseye as well in virtually the same place. My house was actually in a heavy corridor the other night and got over 2.25" of rain.

As for the Cornus kousa 'Milky Way' it is reported to be disease resistant, and I certainly have had no issues with it. Plus it is also widely available. Biggest thing with dogwoods is that you have to keep them watered if it's not raining. There are plenty of C. florida planted in full sun here that seem very happy.

Arktrees

I made some calls last year about Milky Way. No local nurseries carry it and I haven't seen it at any BBS. I did locate a nursery in Fayetteville that had a 2" caliper but I would like a 5 gallon or smaller. If you find one up there, please let me know!

j0nd03,
You will probable have to mail order them to get them smaller. Otherwise the smallest I'm aware here is 1.5" caliper. Nice looking trees, but sounds like ore than you want.

Check the link for one year old graphs, for which shipping should not be expensive.

Arktrees

Here is a link that might be useful: Milky Way

Interesting, the appearance of your tree in the photo definitely does not conform to the standard Alianthus growth. Was the bark smooth and whiteish? Did the individual leaflets on the compound leaves sweep back towards the branch, and have a small nock/notch near the base? There is a tree here that if you did not look closely at, youde think it was an Alianthus, yet it only has 10 pairs of leafs in compound, and bears 2 small plum sized fruits on its branches. Its leaflets sweep downward away from the compound stem branch. Did you have pervasive seedlings everywhere?