Norway maples poison plantings underneath????

16 years ago

The good folks at the Rose forum warned me not to plant a shade garden beneath a huge maple that shades almost our whole front yard, if it is a Norway Maple. I am afraid (and pretty sure) that it is, and will have to positively ID it.

Is it true I cannot plant shade plants under it even with a raised soil bed? Is there any way to work around that, like laying black plastic down, first? I know this would smother the roots, but the tree is struggling anyway.

So there is a HUGE bare spot beneath the drip line of this tree. Any suggestions? Help?

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Comments (11)

greenhaven
Original Author
16 years ago
P.S., if this is true, and we have the tree taken down (it is severely compromised anyway) would the root system still kill even if the tree were gone?
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bullthistle
16 years ago
Do not lay down plastic. Norway maple is often referred to as a weed maple because they grow fast and absorb all the moisture from around it and maybe that's why they suggested not planting anything underneath. If it is struggling either cut it down or have someone try to save it. They usually have a shorter life span then say a Sugar Maple.

Here is a link that might be useful: Propagating Perennials
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I just got in from working in the yard most of the day, glorious weather, great to be outside and cleaning up and puttering around. I did a lot of thinking, walked over to the tree a few times, looked at it from all angles and decided to cut it down. It's funny how thinking about the options made it clear to me, and how some of the same reasons were expressed by you here as well. In the end it came down to two reasons, one: Why should I live with someone else's bad choice of a tree they made 30 years ago (talked with my neighbor, he told me that's how old the tree probably is), and secondly in the grand scheme of things the cutting of one tree will not ruin the earth, especially since I cut down an invasive one and will replant it with two (more likely three) medium size native trees. And once I had made up my mind I didn't feel the slightest regrets or guilt, it will be out of here later this winter. My neighbor will help me because he has a woodburning fireplace and is interested in the wood, so all I have to do is move it 6 feet and stack it right there. Therefor, thanks a lot to everyone for your thoughts, it really helped me come to a conclusion. Now, what trees should I plant...? LOL don't worry I already have a few in mind, it's the narrowing it down that will be the hard part... :-)
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Hello TJ, The following article contains instructions to remove invasive Norway Maple from a woodland, using a 'stepped' approach: "What to do if you suspect a Natural Area is being invaded by Exotic Trees: It is not easy to contemplate removal of trees as part of sensitive environmental management, however the fact is that invasive exotics are causing significant environmental disruption worldwide, resulting in the loss of biodiversity and ecological functioning to natural ecosystems. First, a survey of the site should be conducted identifying remaining native species of trees and shrubs, and invading exotics such as Norway Maple, European Buckhorn, Tatarian and Amur Honeysuckle. Where there are only a few exotics saplings mixed with native species, these invaders could likely be removed without causing any disruption. The problem arises when the forest canopy is mostly exotic, since removing all of them at once could cause serious problems, including opening the site to further invasions of exotics and soil erosion. Removals around any existing native trees would be a start, as well as removing all exotic seedlings, and saplings where larger trees form the canopy. Where large exotic trees exist, removing the lower limbs to allow light to the forest floor is an initial step to consider where complete removal would open up the forest canopy too severely. If native tree seedlings are not naturally establishing, then planting is called for. As the native forest grows, further thinning of the exotics can take place, until they and the seed source is eventually eliminated. Through this process, a return to a native forest association should occur without opening the forest canopy. Since the ground flora may recover under the lighter shade than Norway Maple provides, it is important that it not be further impacted by invading plants of open conditions that would occur if the canopy were opened too quickly." One word of caution: Norway Maples put out "phytotoxins" - which are chemicals that are toxic to most native plants. It is not just the shade, but the phytotoxins which prevent the establishment of native understory, shrub and groundcover layers below Norway Maples - even with thinned branches overhead. My neighbours and I have wasted thousands of dollars trying to plant under Norways in our ravine. The majority die - even when we've created elaborate watering systems to compensate for the Norways (I know - defeats the whole point of planting natives in the first place!). We've had some success by replacing large areas of soil when we plant - but we've recently learned the phytotoxins are in the leaves as well - so those plants just take longer to die. Not to discourage you - it only seems to relentlessly kill plants in some locations - not all. But if anyone has any information on NM phytotoxins - and what to do about it so that we have better success establishing a native layer (ANY native layer - after a few years of NM we have only three layers: 100+ year old oaks, complete NM understory,rapidly eroding bare sandy soil with a few still hanging-on hardcore natives (toad lilly, trillium)) - I'd really appreciate hearing about it! Here is a link that might be useful: Norway Maple: Reassessing the threat to natural areas
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greenhaven
Original Author
16 years ago
Thanks, bullthistle. I also just read that even a few (3!) inches of soil for a shade garden bed can smother the roots, so that is out, too.

I hardky ever use it, but this situation inspires the exclamation "Damn!"

Hubby is absolutely NOT open to taking the tree out yet, so we will limb it up (or have someone do it) and live with the bare spot. Blech.

{{gwi:253639}}
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Dibbit
16 years ago
The problem with growing under Norway maples is not so much that they "poison" things growing there as it is that they cast heavy shade and have greedy roots, so it's hard for anything to survive the dark and the dryness. Bare spots under Norway Maples are the norm, once it gets to a mature size.

Norway Maples are regarded as invasive, weed trees in most of the East, so unless you REALLY need the shade it is giving you, you would probably be as well off to get it taken down and replace it with a better-behaved tree, especially if it isn't in very good health anyway. Better it comes down on your schedule than that it falls (or loses large branches) and hits something important - house, car, driveway, road, etc., etc.. If you get the stump ground, and perhaps bring in a bit of top-soil, since the roots won't rot immediately, and would be hard to dig through, then planting there would be no problem. I don't know if NMs throw a lot of suckers from the roots once cut down, but I don't think they do that.
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marknmt
16 years ago
We have Norways on our boulevard (and all over town) and while they have been good trees in many ways they are rough on the competition.

Lots of shade, lots of roots, lots of water demands. Lots of raking, too, I might add.

If you don't like the tree consider Bullthistle's suggestion. But if it provides summer shade and good habitat ... well, you just have to weigh the choices.

I think the tree's roots would not be a problem if the tree were removed , because it's not like a black walnut, which exudes chemicals (juglans) that virtually poison the soil (I'm also thinking that there would not be a lot of suckering, but I might be wrong.)

Hope this is useful (and accurate!)

Good luck,

M
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Embothrium
16 years ago
Looks more like a plane (Platanus) in tiny dark view shown. If you want more comments put up a better picture of the tree and site. From what I can see here there is plenty of room to dump some topsoil near the drive and plant in.
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greenhaven
Original Author
16 years ago
Dibbit said (and others echoed)"Norway Maples are regarded as invasive, weed trees in most of the East, so unless you REALLY need the shade it is giving you, you would probably be as well off to get it taken down and replace it with a better-behaved tree, especially if it isn't in very good health anyway. "

Yeah, I know. The problem is that it does provide an incredible amount of shade on our southern exposure in the Summertime. And it takes a heck of a lot of time to grow a tree to that size. And it is not so much struggling as compromised. (I'm sure there's a difference!) You can see the hole in the trunk in the photo, and it goes pretty much all the way through. But the tree leafs out well and didn't even lose branches in the very severe winter we just had. But we know it is just a matter of time. Since it is technically the town's tree for being in (that grassy strip between sidewalk and road) the town said they would remove it when we were ready. I guess now I am and hubby is not! Any limbing up is our call and responsibility.

The photo is dark because is was quite cloudy and raining when I took it. The original purpose was to pick brains on landscaping. It is definitely not a sycamore; I am 99.9% sure it is a Norway maple after research this afternoon. I am not sure why the photo would be tiny for bboy. It is embarrassingly large on my screen, even after resizing to 391x213 at Photobucket. Maybe bboys is a clickable thumbnail?
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pineresin
16 years ago
"I am not sure why the photo would be tiny for bboy. It is embarrassingly large on my screen, even after resizing to 391x213 at Photobucket. Maybe bboys is a clickable thumbnail?"

I can't see the pic full size either - if I try clicking to see it full size, I get taken to a page of rather nasty sordid advertising.

Resin
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
16 years ago
it is not a poison issue ....

its a super competitor .. winning the battle for water and nutrients ...

all maples are near impossible to garden under ... and norway are the absolute worst .. IMHO .... here is a pic from when the neighbor had to fix the septic ... just a generic maple...

{{gwi:197426}}

its no wonder nothing will grow under it ...

the fact that you cant even grow the most invasive plant in the world under it.. grass ... is a fine indication that NOTHING else will grow there ... i once added 12 inches of soil around a maple.. proper to the trunk of the maple.. and by the end of the year ... the maple had COMPLETELY filled the new soil with roots ... not surprising now.. but a real lesson them ...

plastic wont stop a maple.. and really isnt effective in the garden regardless ...

if you want to garden out there.. get rid of the tree ...but that leads also to why you would want to garden in the city easement anyway ... have you considered talking to the city about having them remove the tree.. or the power company .. since it appears to be in the power lines ...

when you opt for removal ... the ground chips are one of the best FREE mulch supplies in the world.. do NOT let them drive away with them.. and maple is probably the best firewood known ...

the key to convincing hubby .. is at seed drop time.. when he has to spend hours cleaning them up.. that is the time to remind him how.. if the tree was gone ... he wouldnt be wasting effort cleaning up ...

good luck

ken
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greenhaven
Original Author
16 years ago
Pineresin, WOW! Now THAT is embarrassing! I wish I knew what that problem was, for if I did I would fix it in a heartbeat.

Ken, I wish hubby could feel the pain of dealig with the cleanup of that tree, but he does NOT do yardwork, much to my consternation. If I didn't do it he would pay someone to do it rather than do it himself, so the tree and any gardening is essentially my problem, but also my free-rein. :o)

I have no plans to garden in the city easement. The branches are trimmed away from the power lines. As a matter of fact, the grass grows better in the easement where it gets full of road crap and salt, than it does in that big, ugly dirt spot in my actual yard (which is where the shade garden WAS going to go.)

We were actually thinking of installing another tree in the yard to begin establishing and growing, against that time when we knew the big tree would have to go. But I guess that's out too, now.

What's ironic is that last year I was the one who pitched a fit when the city first approached us about taking that tree out. Now I am the one who wants it gone. How fickle is a gardner's heart!
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Dibbit
16 years ago
I wouldn't give up on the idea of planting a replacement tree on your lawn - you will have to be watering it anyway for the first 2 years - and with the NM, you will just have to do so more, and probably for longer. I would pick a tree that can take some dryness, since the NM roots will be there, unless you can talk DH into it coming down. As long as you let it grow by itself, to establish a decent root system, for the first year or two, you can start with flower beds under it and let things get established to grow up with the tree. There are trees with deeper roots than maples - and trees that are "friendlier" to flowers growing under them - especially when compared to a Norway maple!
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Norway maples poison plantings underneath????

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Norway maples poison plantings underneath????

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