I had the same problem with some Silver Maples, I finally cut them down as nothing else worked. When you have a large tree with a shallow, greedy, aggressive root system, there is no method of filling, root pruning, barriers, etc. that will stop the roots. You either have to remove the tree or move the rose bed out of the tree's root zone.

Thanks, wirosarian. I was afraid that was going to be the answer. Unfortunately the trees are on city property and are designated as "heritage" trees. I love trees but these are monsters and never should have been planted near houses.

Diane

Tree removal would be the only solution.

A ray of hope: ecologists, among others, have been casting a jaundiced eye on both Monterey cypresses and pines that were planted outside their native range, which is a relatively small area in the vicinity of Monterey proper -- period. Of course, they were planted willy-nilly all over CA during the last century because they were cheap, easy and fast to grow.

They are being removed from SFPUC watersheds and Golden Gate Park in SF as restoration measures. A very good argument can be made for Monterey cypress being an invasive pest (has naturalized on watershed lands, with growing populations).

It's going to take a while for the tree laws to catch up to the science. For a lot of people, a tree is a tree is a tree. Unbelievably, some local ordinances protect eucalyptus (aargh!).

My sympathies.

How determined are you, and how many resources do you have to throw at this problem?

It would be a lot of work, but you might be able to get them removed, depending on how reasonable your city is. If you produced the research Catspa described (not native to this area, problematic outside of their natural range, being removed by other communities) and also showed the damage that is being done, you might be able to appeal the decision. It is likely that you would incur costs including legal fees, and there is no guarantee that you would be successful.

If it were me, and if it were my decision alone with no objections from a spouse, I would move to another house if it took that to get away from the tree roots. Really. As far as I am concerned you first pick a congenial community, then pick a space to garden, and after that the house itself comes in at third place.

Rosefolly

I have very limited resources. We consider ourselves fortunate to have been able to even buy a house.

We bought the house many years ago before I had much understanding about growing roses and about M. Cypress roots.

The city of Pacifica would prefer to remove all the trees but there is a dedicated group that is bound and determined to protect them. I know it would be futile to go up against them, unless the trees are proven to be dangerous and we've tried that route for these and failed.

Thanks catspa and rosefolly.

Diane

I'm so sorry Diane! White Birch and Paper Mulberry are just as bad. Horrid, hateful things. Kim

Thanks Kim, I'll take all the sympathy I can get!

Time to rethink and plan for large pots placed on bricks to keep them off the ground. Wonder how well some of the smaller Gallicas would do in pots?

I know Rose de Rescht will work. Any suggestions welcome...not Austins, they don't do well for me.

Diane

It would be awful if those trees came into contact with a heavy dosage of Roundup concentrate...purely by accident of course. They might just stop their invading if such a thing happened. Hypothetically of course. :)

Here the way to get a tree removed is to help it buckle the sidewalk, thus creating a potential liability issue (trip and fall) for the city. Any public sidewalk nearby?

Hoov, you're obviously not in LA County. Here, they plant the tree, YOU can't "molest" the tree and have to support, water and trim it, and when the bloody thing destroys something, you get to pay for it. I can show you miles of severely dangerous side walks which are "Urban Forest tree" issues. If you want something done about it, they will take your money to make it happen. I'm glad we don't have side walks on this hill. Grandfathered in and aren't required until/unless the lot is sub divided. No street trees, either. Kim

Diane, I'm so very sorry to hear that. Unfortunately we all have to deal with our reality. Every one of us faces some sort of situation that is less than ideal, no matter what our circumstances. (I used a different wording before, but on second thought decided it to be unwise.)

You could try cutting the roots. Do not cut more deeply than the drip line of the trees. You want to control invasion, not kill the trees. Very likely you would have to repeat action this every year because I am sure the tree would persist in sending new roots pretty much indefinitely. You ought to check on city regulations before you did this.

Before doing anything get a copy of your town's regulations on trees and do not do anything they forbid. I think they are wrong to prize these destructive trees above the gardens of their residents, but I do not advocate breaking the law.

Street trees are a truly wonderful thing. They clean the air, beautify the community and moderate temperature extremes. I love trees every bit as much as I love roses, but they should be selected wisely. The growing of destructive trees is not a wise decision. Unfortunately, people tend to be married to decisions they have previously made, even when they can clearly see that those decisions were not the best. Alas.

Rosefolly

Diane, I'm so very sorry to hear that. Unfortunately we all have to deal with our reality. Every one of us faces some sort of situation that is less than ideal, no matter what our circumstances. (I used a different wording before, but on second thought decided it to be unwise.)

You could try cutting the roots. Do not cut more deeply than the drip line of the trees. You want to control invasion, not kill the trees. Very likely you would have to repeat action this every year because I am sure the tree would persist in sending new roots pretty much indefinitely. You ought to check on city regulations before you did this.

Before doing anything get a copy of your town's regulations on trees and do not do anything they forbid. I think they are wrong to prize these destructive trees above the gardens of their residents, but I do not advocate breaking the law.

Street trees are a truly wonderful thing. They clean the air, beautify the community and moderate temperature extremes. I love trees every bit as much as I love roses, but they should be selected wisely. The growing of destructive trees is not a wise decision. Unfortunately, people tend to be married to decisions they have previously made, even when they can clearly see that those decisions were not the best. Alas.

Rosefolly

The decision to plant the Cypress lies back in time. John McLaren of Golden Gate Park design fame is credited with planting the Cypress in our Vallemar neighborhood. A poor choice indeed since many of the trees he planted are reaching the end of their lifespan and have fallen over causing a lot of damage. A survey was made and the ones deemed the most dangerous were removed. Unfortunately the ones in front of our house are too "healthy."

I have no intention to do anything to harm the trees. Highly illegal.

Diane

Could you use some of the stack blocks to create a big raised bed? Not all are cheap looking (like the cheap ones I buy)

I feel your pain on the tree. The neighbors oak tree, probably planted by a bird is in a horrible spot and 70% plus is on our side of the fence. It has killed several trees by the heavy shade it creates and we could never build on a big part of the second lot due to the tree. Some one of these nights there will be a mighty crash and the oak will split in half, just like those old oaks do. It will probably take out both of the rentals next door when it does it. The biggest part of the weight of the tree is on our side so when that falls....

But in the city oak trees are protected and guessing the property owner has no desire to deal with city hall for a permit. We are in the county and I have no desire to pay an arborist to to fight city hall to trim it up. We did have the neighbor, a lawyer, write the property owner with our concerns about this tree and a dead pine he had. The pine is gone. All we can hope is that the pine tree spread its disease to this oak like it did to one up the street.

But for now, going to sit in the shade and enjoy the constant free oak mulch..... and think about planting a jacaranda (equally protected) by them. (Found a nice one for only $40 today)

This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Sat, Jun 1, 13 at 1:07

I found an article about monterey cypress trees in Berkeley. Here's a quote:

"Pavement interferes with root growth, and poor drainage can weaken their root systems, as it can with most trees, until they overbalance and topple.

One terrible instance of this happened a few years ago on Sixth Street, when a beautiful old cypress collapsed suddenly in, as I recall, calm weather, in the arboreal equivalent of a stroke and killed a driver at a stop sign under it."

I don't guess you can somehow prove they are dangerous in a setting like what you describe; even though yours are "healthy" now, maybe the potentialities for what will eventually happen means they need to be removed also? Maybe it would be worth trying to find out what other communities are doing, if people are dying because of them? Just a thought. But it sounds like you've been down this road already.

Could you dig down and line a giant hole with some bricks or blocks and plant in that? Or are the roots so invasive you can't dig through them? Is that why your Clair Matin isn't doing well, it's planted close to those tree roots? I've dealt with silver maples before, horrid roots. I've not had to deal with unyielding city regulations, though. So sorry, Diane.

Gean

Here is a link that might be useful: berkeley article on monterey cypress

This post was edited by harborrose on Sat, Jun 1, 13 at 0:55

Building a raised bed anywhere near those tree roots is the same as putting pots on the soil. The roots will grow right up into the new soil, as well as through the drain holes into the pots and proliferate. Been there. California Black Walnut, Paper Mulberry, White Birch, California Pepper, Bottle Tree, Fruitless Mulberry, Xylosma, some kind of Pine (not sure which) have all done it to me. A client wants bedding plants around her HUGE, multi trunk white birch in the engineered lawn. I had to use enormous river rocks around it; place several sheets of the heaviest black plastic sheeting I could find and hide the edges behind the rocks. I fill the shallow bowl it creates with moisture control potting soil and plant the annuals. There are NO drain holes and the lawn sprinklers keep it watered. At least twice a year I have to roll the stones back into the lawn, reach under the plastic sheeting and cut the birch roots which actually grow THROUGH the layers of plastic into the soil and completely fill it. They grow up the sides of the rocks between the plastic and the stones and INTO the soil over the edges of the plastic. Tree roots are completely opportunistic. If there is ANY way to get into the soil, they WILL. Kim

I don't remember if it was here or one of my gardening magazines, but someone actually had tree roots appear in their toilet.

Gean, Clair Matin is in the back yard and away from the roots.

I learned the hard way about raised beds, Kim. I bought a bunch of half wine barrels and planted in them. Within a year or two the soil was filled with the tree roots that had come up through the drainage holes seeking moisture. Argh!

So my next step will be raised pots that are completely off the ground and I'll start a new thread on roses appropriate for large pots.

Appreciate everyone's input.

Diane

This is why, short of being forced to, I wouldn't live in a city, heck I can barely function with a town at times =)...

I cringe when I here the word restrictions.. Most of them are not really ecologically sound, I once told someone who said I shouldn't cut down trees.. "There is only about 5 million maples in southern Maine, but alas I might be one of three growing Fruhlingsduft" I think they thought I was insane or something.

Its not that I hate trees, I do not, of my wooded 3 acre lot, most of it is still wooded, and will remain so, but for one thing I DO not like large trees next to my house, even now there is a giant red oak about 40 feet tall that scares me, ive already taken down most of its neighbors, but my wife wanted me to leave this one up for some reason.

I would still just inquire of the town, tell them you would replace it with another less invasive native species to the area.. but if its like any town managers I know, they will want to feel the full weight of their power to scream "article 1 . 2 sub chapter 6, clearly states that "no tree, shall be removed, without sub section 2.5.6 being upheld, which clearly states that the town supervisor of residential property, must be made aware, unfortunately, we haven't had that position for 5 years because of budget concerns, so you are out of luck"

Ha... now that I've totally been cynical today, im off to spend time with kidos.

I don't speak from experience on this, but just want to offer a suggestion I gleaned from another forum, this one speaking to the situation of planting a rambler next to a tree. Several people were saying they cut away the existing roots that were in the way,(not sure what type of tree it was), dug deep enough to enclose a cardboard box, and then planted the young rose in the cardboard box! The cardboard box supposedly protects the young rose from root competition until the roots fill the box...and by that time, the box disintegrates, and the rose is big enough to survive. I don't know if anyone here has experience with this, but I am trying it right now with a Generous Gardener rose planted several yards away from a maple tree (not under the dripline but near the roots>)

Hi Diane,

This may not help with the problem of an already existing tree in the yard, but for choosing trees in the future. It contains detailed information about each tree, including the potential for invasive root damage.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: SelecTree--Urban Forest Ecosystems Institute

Do the roots grow shallow enough that you could dig a trench to cut off the roots and then place a vinyl barrier in the trench ? I did this at our previous home to control roots from an oak. I purchased a roll of vinyl house trim. It comes in various widths and is available from building supply stores.

I know you don't want to hear this, but in Texas if something is causing a problem, we cut it down!

(Cowering under my computer, but in all honesty, don't mess with Texas!)

Melissa, I don't plan on planting any other trees. What space I have is for roses. But thanks for the info.

Everyone. These are two monster trees that are sending out the shallow roots. It would be VERY expensive to cut them down but even if it was within my budget, the trees are on city property and are protected.

I also don't have the resources to attempt a barrier and suspect it would just send the roots off in another direction.

So I'm starting another thread asking for recommendations for antique roses that can be grown in large pots. If worse comes to worse I'll fill the whole are with Rose de Rescht which is a proven winner in my part shade coastal conditions.

Diane

I have 4 gorgeous trees (because of their age) that were planted by my great-grandparents on my land as the old version of air conditioning (it works!). This land was where my grandmother was raised! So they were planted in the late 1800s.

I do grow ramblers by them, as vickysgarden suggested :) The roots of these trees are amazing and visible from above ground. Any pot gets filled with Spanish-Moss looking live roots within a year!

But the ramblers hold their own, growing to a nice height that is very unramblerlike ;) My philosophy was to pick a rose that grows at least 20' tall. One there is bracteata, trained to go mainly up, so that's another possibility.

Raised containers sound lovely, too. And get a birdbath :) Huge trees are amazing for how many birds live in them, anyway. I have whole colonies of different birds living in mine, like highrise apartment buildings for them :D

Meredith, you also chose the roses wisely. Climbing types evolved and succeed around and among trees. Usually, they are sufficiently mildew resistant when young to survive until they can throw themselves into, through and out of the trees and their canopy into the sun where they will flower, attract pollinators and reproduce. Their root systems are strong enough, invasive enough to battle many trees' roots. Most rose roots grow similarly to their top growth. If you have a ten foot cane, there are roots which are about that size to stabilize and support the tops. You wouldn't expect a four foot bush to have ten feet of roots, so the shorter, smaller plants aren't generally as able to battle the invasive tree root systems. You matched the rose types to what they would naturally be found in, and that is often the reason for success. Congratulations! Kim

Thank you, Kim :)

One thing I did do, too, was plant in a big pot originally that had holes cut in the bottom, and it was the sort of plastic that cracks and breaks up after a few years in the sun. I filled that with really good starter mix for roses. So they did have some actual soil to start in and didn't have to compete with the roots right when planted. I watered them like cultivated roses.

The pots are gone now (you do have to pull the pieces away when they are breaking up), and the basal canes fill a larger diameter than the pots did. I do throw good soil on top of them here and there to help fertilize. The leaf litter helps, too. I don't have to water them.

I mainly planted them for hips for the birds and chipmunks, but they are lovely in bloom, too!

The varieties in the roots various places are: Toby Tristam (Tristram?), Sebastopol Queen by Vintage, Dentelles de Malines and bracteata. I don't know that I recommend Dentelles for it, because she's more spindly there.

Purezza is a bit farther out, but he competes very well. He repeats and is a gorgeous one, imho. Purezza and Dentelles were for looks, not hips.

(I have other ramblers in the woods edge, but those roots aren't so crazy there).

Mmmmm, starting a garden in woodland is filling me with terror...and this post is potentially leaving me quivering in shock since my roots are poplar - equally dread........and yet, the woods are full, absolutely bursting with a thick carpet of stuff. OK, they are mainly weeds but that is just semantics - importantly, they are green, growing and healthy plants, right up to the trunks. Umbellifers(numerous) campions, bugle, campanula, epilobium......so plenty of things are coping with tree roots.....and I swear, my roses are going there too. There are several caninas lurking around already and I can already see a whopping great Kiftsgate or The Garland romping up into the oaks....in my head.
Oh Diane, why can you not have huge pots, raised up an inch or so - you could even have a little irrigation set-up if you just got the biggest pots available and really good soil - There is always a gardening solution....sometimes not quite the one we would have wanted - if the roses fail, there's always geums, foxgloves. primula (for me) and there must be something for you, too.

You're welcome! You ALSO grew them up to a more mature size, hence more easily able to compete before setting them out to do battle. It surprises me how often people don't think about doing that before either planting them where root competition or severe heat are issues. Putting a climber against a hot wall as a gallon or new bare root is often a losing battle (like putting small climbers in tree roots is), but setting out a mature plant with size and momentum on its side can easily lead to a successful result. Kim

Wow Kim, that makes total sense. No wonder the Madame Alfred Carriere is surviving in that rootbound soil.

Diane

"Pavement interferes with root growth" seems backwards to me. It should be 'root growth interferes with pavement' in city areas where you know pavement is needed. But oh well! And Kim, I'd be hating it in LA County -- "Here, they plant the tree, YOU can't "molest" the tree and have to support, water and trim it, and when the bloody thing destroys something, you get to pay for it." Like Rosefolly, I'd be looking for "another house if it took that to get away from the tree roots." But if you can't, you can't. You'll have to compensate and adapt. You have all my sympathy. I'm so sorry. Lou

Thanks to Rosefolly's post pointing me in the direction of looking at hydroponic store supplies, I've found a store in San Francisco that carries 25 gallon pots which will become the basis for my new front garden raised up on bricks.

I also like the idea of planting in a cardboard box. May have to try that.

Thanks for your sympathy Lou. I don't give up easily and have been adapting the whole time I've been gardening here. Nature is a humbling teacher.

Diane

You'll find a pretty solution, Diane! Other shrubs that do well in my awful roots are the prickly-leaf kind of Osmanthus and pyracantha (for the berries!). In a sunny spot I have a lovely blue Vitex that looks like a dwarf but is a happy camper otherwise.

Your roots and conditions may be different than mine, of course, but I thought I'd tell you what still grows well here. They just look smaller; I'm not counting what grows poorly and looks bad that I've tried. Oh, I have a camellia that keeps coming up from its roots, too! I actually don't want it there, lol. That's an old passaround variety, so every camellia won't work, I wouldn't think.

Campanula, don't worry about woods and ramblers if they grow lots of weeds and shrubby stuff already! I have some ramblers that have swallowed my wood's edge because I originally put them there in a 'holding garden' when I first moved in. 'Holding garden of ramblers' -- right! Live and learn :)

Felicite et Perpetue is lovely as a 20' monster in a tree, though :D. I get to smell that scent as I mow the meadowy part that goes up to the edge (she's blooming now). She beats out the wild multiflora, and that's saying something!

Beside her are Blush Rambler and Evangeline. Cl Cecile Brunner lost out to those three ;) Shade and competition from other ramblers is the only real problem in my woods (well, and weedy shrubs). As things get bigger, the shade produced can be deadly to others, so imagine whole walls of roses and you'll be OK, I think.