It sounds like northern red or shumard oaks would combine a lot of your wants and wishes. The northern red is a fast grower with relatively strong wood and very long lived with few pests/diseases and it has good fall color. It also has a spreading habit. They do drop acorns in maturity, that may be a concern. These are generally fairly easy to find and not that expensive. I mention that because you will have many suggestions for rare or exotic specimen trees on this board.

I noticed oaks are not on your "loves" list but the trees on that list don't really offer what you are looking for.

Thank you very much. I do love oak trees, especially after going through all this ice storm crap. This neighborhood is known for its mature trees, and it was pretty impressive to look out and see miles of ice-covered trees breaking and falling over, and yet the oak branches barely sagged. These red oaks sound like a good bet for our yard.

I don't think I'm interested in the rare or exotic at all. In your opinion, is there anything on my "love" list I should avoid?

Putting my landscape design and arborist hats on, I'd second the Northern Red oak, and combine with Nyssa Sylvatica (Black gum or Tupelo) and add an Acer x freemanii (Freeman maple) 'Autumn Blaze' and 'October Glory' are my favorites. These trees will give you a good red with the maple a nice accent color, and the tree forms are all different, creating interest the other times of the year. If you can stand the anthracnose/other issues, a dogwood as an accent to the three aforementioned would do a nice job rounding out the planting.

Dan

Amanda it sounds like you know a thing or two about trees.
I have a hard time recommending trees without seeing the site but since you've given a decent list, you've given us something to work with.
I like the idea of blackgum too. One thing I might suggest is if you are concerned with weak wood and want brilliant color, rather than a Acer x freemanii (Silver maple hybrid) or Red maple, a sugar maple is better.

OTher trees that are pretty tough and strong wood are hornbeams. Very problem free and long lived. You may have a hard time finding the native hornbeam for sale as the European hornbeam is more common in cultivation. Usually the fastigiate forms so be sure to find out. If you're concerned about breakage, the fastigate cultivars are not for you anyway. I have one and my only complaint is some years the japanese beetles have their way with it. Other years they leave it alone.

Sugar maple is fine too, larger than Freeman maple. Hornbeams are fine trees as well, not as good fall color but relatively trouble-free.

Dan

My favorite trees for the long run:

'Tricolor' and 'Purple Fountain' beech
Oriental Spruce, the species and the cultivar 'Skylands'
White Oak
Cedrus Doedara 'Karl Fuchs or Eisregen' and
Cedrus Stentacoma
Paper Bark maple
One of the newer magnolia;'Daybreak','Rosemarie'or one of the late bloming yellow selections
Eastern White Pine( Pinus Strobus)

Stryax Obassia
Pinus Bungeana

if you have any inkling to garden under trees.. in the future ... DO NOT PLANT MAPLE ... or willow.. the list goes on ... mulberry .... bamboo ...

OAKS .... go for it .... get one of every kind you can find ...

in 2000 i planted about 30 6 to 8 foot oaks ... they are going on 20 to 30 feet tall ... growing 2 to 4-5 feet per year.. once established ... i got them in Mansfield OH ...

black, red,scarlet,shingle ... mail ordered a white ...

for decoration ... variegated liquidamber... girards nursery .... but not good to grow things under ...

i would replace a redbud or two ...

the 2 color tricolor beech ... slower growing though.. beech are NOT fast at all ...

no ash ... EAB ...

IN GENERAL ... it is said that nut trees are deep rooted ... making gardening under them possible ... i suppose you can see my bias ... lol ..

and dont forget conifers ... check out the pix over in that forum ...

ken

Cornus alternifolia will give you great shapely winter silouette. Pinus strobus will break branches in ice storms.

Shantung maple is a small tree that will give you nice fall color. Rated one of best ice and wind resistant tree in Kansas. Named Texas Superstar plant over here. I have 7 growing in my lawn. I expect in several years that I'd have spectacular fall display. I don't think the root system is as bad as red maple or norway maple. I highly doubt Ken ever grew it before so he just assume that all maples are equally bad so ignore him.

To show that Ken doesn't have a clue...

Check out the link

Here is a link that might be useful: Metro Maples aroboretum

dont you think 2 attacks is a bit harsh lou???

i have over 1500 hosta.. which i grow in the shade ...

there is no maple [and many other trees] which is conducive to growing hosta under ...

feel free to collect a thousand or so.. and grow them under maples.. and report back.. when you have the experience ...

and do note .... i admitted my bias...

ken

Thank you all for these recommendations, I do appreciate it. You guys are serious about your trees! I love that.

Two questions: what is it about the maples that makes it difficult to garden underneath them? The shade? The roots? We did have trouble with some maple roots tearing up some pipes underground. Maybe I should put the maples further away from the house....? And second: I think I mentioned we had a terrible mimosa worm infestation (we also have what I consider an *infestation* of mimosa TREES in our yard, but I'll spare you that tirade) with our locust trees. We also have had a bad run of tent caterpillars the last couple of years. The trees that were mainly affected by these pests are gone now, but do I need to worry about these pests with any of the recommended trees--the black gum specifically?

Thanks for your time everybody! :)

Amanda:

What I tell everyone to do who wants a general tree recommendatiion, is to look around your area and see what kinds of trees you would like to have in your yard.

Having said that, for a large ornamental/landscape tree, at the top of my list would be eastern white oak. They generally grow with beautiful form and foliage, develop a structure that resists storm breakage, may provide good autumn color, and can live for centuries--a real "legacy tree." They are hard to find in local nurseries, but can be found on-line. Or dug up from your local woods, if there is any opportunity to do that.

Yes, maples. Sugar maple or red maple are both good, and blackgum is a wonderful tree, especially for its color.

Conifers: I love white pine and Norway spruce. Maybe a really special choice would be Oriental spruce. Like white oak, this can be hard to find locally, but it available on-line.

Well, I could make dozens of recommendations, but giving too many is just like giving none, so I will stop.

--Spruce

what is it about the maples that makes it difficult to garden underneath them? The shade? The roots? ... do I need to worry about these pests with any of the recommended trees--the black gum specifically?

Some Acer species can have shallow, aggressive roots. If you plan properly (says the old landscape designer) and have well-constructed beds and well-prepared soil, this shouldn't be a show-stopper, as the benefits of maples outweigh their liabilities in the landscape. Any tree can interfere with pipes, and do (modern pipes have better material and construction, BTW).

Tent caterpillars aren't big fans of Tupelo, unless the other favored trees are denuded or removed. Don't worry about it, its a lovely tree and excellent choice.

Let me also second the value of Styrax, esp where people can enjoy the scent and look up into the tree when in bloom - e.g. patio area.

If you are going multiple layers (and you should), oak overstory, maple-Tupelo second layer, and the Shantung maple and Styrax as lower canopy layer is an excellent example of multiple layering with long period of interest. Just my opinion.

Dan

With maples it's primarily a difference of scale. The large-growing ones become dominating because they are large. Smaller-growing ones like Japanese maple and Amur maple don't fill up and overtop half the yard (unless the yard is small).

Although a still comparatively small Norway maple will often have a bare area beneath it in my climate (we have dry summers).

Ya, it's pretty hard to plant anything except woodlanders under maples. The roots suck all the water out of the soil by June. I think I've finally persuaded mayapples to be happy there, but that's about it.

I have a couple of ideas based on your love list: Horsechestnut or liriodendron just for the sheer size and durability of them. Liriodendron has the added advantage of being a pretty fast grower, but a well-grown horse chestnut is truly a thing of beauty. Not so great for growing other stuff under, though - it throws a very dense shade (plus an awful lot of tree trash). My mom had one when she lived in an old section of Philadelphia and it was definite presence in the neighborhood.

You might have a look at some of the DED-resistant American elms. They grow quickly, provide high, open shade and their roots are famous for getting along OK with sidewalks, streets, road salt and other plants. I doubt that any of them can be guaranteed disease -proof, though, so there's a risk here.

I also really, really love catalpas, majestic and durable.

You all have given me a lot to think about! Especially in regards to planting multiple layers. I can't wait to get started, thanks you all!

I believe Shellbark Hickories (Carya laciniosa) grow well in that area.

Hi amanda_t, from a fellow Kentuckian.

I currently practice here in Scott County and in Louisville. I've lived and gardened in Nicholasville, Versailles, Lexington, and Paris. Which best approximates where you are in KY?

You mention you occupy a "large urban lot." Give us an idea of what that means (since in NYC that could be a 1000 square feet): 1/4 acre, 1 acre, 2.5 acres? Lexington has quite a few properties near the middle of town with 5 acre parcels.

If you have a 100+ year old ginkgo, do everything you can to preserve/protect that youngster against all potential damage from new work you intend. That is a plant to treasure.

All that said, here's what I'd offer based on your initial set of likes:

Beeches: There simply is nothing to match the grace and beauty of an American Beech (Fagus grandifolia) in most seasons. While it is not my favorite large shade tree, I can see where it is one to invest in and love for life. Much of my career in Louisville revolves around managing the historic and wondrous landscapes of the old parks that are blessed with fabulous specimens and thick forests of American Beech. Don't "settle" for an import.

Maples for fall color: There are many native species (Sugar and Red Maples already mentioned) and myriad introduced species (Acer griseum, Acer triflorum, Acer palmatum, Acer henryi among them) that offer stellar fall color. Decide which category (large, intermediate, or small) that you'd like to invest in. None will be immune to ice damage; that is easy to observe around Lexington and Louisville.

Catalpa: I agree with you on this one - it is too seldom used for its bold branch architecture and impressive leaves/flowers. People focus too much on "litter". I defy anyone to identify a tree that doesn't drop something at sometime. Biases indeed...

Crabapples with pretty flowers: There are numerous excellent selections in this category. Pretty flowers are a given. Consider only selecting the highly disease resistant forms, and then decide if you want white, pink, or reddish flowers. Forms can be interesting, from the standard big rounded trees to erect, pendulous, weeping, and dwarf. Finally, the best combine all the above choices with small persistent fruit. This provides winter-long interest until spring leaf-out and/or arrival of the hungry robins to strip them. If you are serious about this species, I can provide a separate (long) list for KY.

Redbuds and Dogwood: These are never bad choices. There are numerous fine performers for KY.

Trees with wide stretching branches or shapely branches: Hmmm. This is hardest to answer, since it is rather open-ended.

I'll second the votes for Nyssa sylvatica and Picea orientalis. These are two that there can't be too many of.

I'll offer some tree ideas that haven't been mentioned previously above.

Cercidiphyllum japonicum, esp. 'Amazing Grace'
Gymnocladus dioicus
Carya cordiformis
Ilex opaca
Abies nordmanniana
Quercus michauxii
Ostrya virginiana
Franklinia alatamaha
Halesia diptera esp. 'Magniflora'
Viburnum rufidulum
Asimina triloba
Chionanthus virginicus
Cladrastis kentukea

It is interesting that no one above asked you what the site was like that you garden on. Some of the suggestions are outstanding - provided the growing conditions are good for that plant. Depending where you are in KY, white oak may be a rather poor choice. It doesn't occur often in the inner Bluegrass region, preferring instead the somewhat more acid soils surrounding this area. The favored trees of the Bluegrass landscape include Quercus macrocarpa, Quercus muehlenbergii, Quercus shumardii, Gymnocladus dioicus, and Fraxinus quadrangulata. I do and would continue to plant any/all of these (and spit in the eye of EAB).

Viburnum Valley: Wow, I may need some time to research those suggestions, but thank you so much! I appreciate your opinion, as someone who is familiar with the area.

I'm in Louisville, and our lot is almost an acre, on one of the historic Olmsted-designed parkways, minutes from one of Olmsted's flagship parks. I'm excited that you mentioned the beeches in our parks, this area was named for the beeches that used to grow here, including one in the park that bore the carved initials of Daniel Boone. I absolutely love those beautiful trees and it's curious to me that more people haven't recommended American Beech, although I suppose it's because they grow so slowly.

I am likewise sentimental about catalpa, I grew up with an ancient one in my backyard. There are several in this area, but I've seen a lot lately that people have "topped" or whatever it's called where people chop out all the height. Blurgh.

Now, regarding our site and soil... I have to admit I am not sure whether our soil is acidic or not, thought I've been told we have "great dirt." Do you recommend I test the soil before I get started? Also... There is a huge black walnut next door, don't they inhibit the growth of some other trees? Maybe I'm thinking of something else...

I'm only guessing on the age of the gingko given the age of our house. It's an absolute knockout and I'm exceedingly proud to live here with it. The last thing I want to do is endanger it, should I avoid planting anything else nearby? I wouldn't mind having some lower trees or shrubs near it, but not if it risks the gingko.

I recognized Franklinia on your list and I'm curious about that tree. It seems like an awesome "front yard" tree but I've heard it's difficult to grow. Do you grow it?

Southern Parkway? Iroquois Park? A certain neighborhood around the Woodlawn intersection? Hmmm....

Soil tests are always good for baseline measurements. Where do we go from here? Work with what you have, or try to create conditions for what you desire.

Black walnut (Juglans nigra) is well known for its allelopathic properties, which can inhibit the growth of some other plants in its vicinity.

The note about the ginkgo was so that you respected its zone. Some gardeners inadvertantly "love" their favorite plants to death.

I do grow Franklinia, here and in Seneca Park. I've not observed difficulty with it, as have so many posters here and elsewhere.

Hope to hear back from you soon.

You should consider some edible nut trees. Some grafted pecans,black walnuts,butternuts, chestnuts, shellbark hickory.
One tree I've become interested in is the swamp white oak. It will grow in low areas but the one I collected acorns from was in a high dry area and had no doubt seen many severe droughts. It is very similar to a bur oak but with much smaller acorns that the birds can fly away with.
I have a small Ben Franklin tree planted along a creek in zone 5b. It's done fine so far. If it sprouts out this spring will be the test of its hardiness. This was a harshest winter in many years. - Jim

tulip poplars are the best tree god put on this planet you will love it if you go with it red elms are unice and beutiful as well i would for sure go with a tulip straight up and beutiful

Have a question of my own. Which is the nicest pine, wide and bushy, any size needles, but still good looking when full grown for z5, as a specimen?
culejools@yahoo.ca