Sorry about the pic quality (old pic w/old camera), but this is a fine specimen near Columbia, MD:

I have an Agronomy text from the '70's with a cutaway of the soil profile, I suspect that many here have seen this. The picture in the text, shows an 8 year old Juniperus virginiana with roots excavated to a depth of 16'. Surely this is why the trees can live and thrive in such intolerable conditions.
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Compare RC with Leyland Cypress pictured here. Customers ALWAYS ask for the fastest growing tree to screen out the road or neighbor. Here's what happens to a tree with alot of top but poor root system. Leyland is like a sterile, bi-generic oddity and yet around here the most popular screening plant.
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we also have a beautiful 50 + yr.red cedar; the birds all love to sit way up in the top both in winter & summer. This tree has cones so I can assume it is a female? A neighbor complains the 'pollen' is bad for his allergies ... can a female produce both cones & pollen? I notice a few small clusters often fall to the ground but guess this is normal? Wonder how long a red cedar can live? A beautiful tree!

Ya'll are welcome to them. I hate the $%%# things myself. Only form they take around my yard is mulch. But then again they are one of my two allergies. The other allergy doesn't live here, and doesn't bother much most years.

Arktrees

They can live up to about 150 yrs. 70-100 yrs. is probably more common in the wild. Have read about ERC living up to ~ 300 yrs.

"Have read about ERC living up to ~ 300 yrs."

There's one in West Virginia that's 940 years old. There are a number of them over 700 years old.

From The Gymnosperm Database, here's an Eastern Redcedar car:

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Here is a link that might be useful: The Gymnosperm Database

This post was edited by brandon7 on Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 16:08

I too hate them. We managed to burn over a 1000 acres of them just south in the canyon country. If left unchecked they will take over grazing land planting prohibited in this area.

Sam is that somewhere in Harford County? There are SO many McEstates there surrounded by the wall of Leylandii, which, as you point out, eventually ends up looking like this. Not to mention having bag worms and Seridium canker in summer.

I suppose it has been hinted at but not said outright:

ERC is one of the few eastern native pioneer species capable of living a very, very long time. Longer than some oaks, even!

I have two very nice ones probably well over 100 years old on my property. My favorite look for them are the unpruned ones that branch to the ground and form a "skirt" similar in appearance to the spruces. There are several in a yard I see to and from work on a hill with this appearance. Also like the look of the ones covered in berries but honestly the tree is so common, I do despise it for no other reason than I would like to see something else most of the time!

John

Edit: Brandon that car is awesome! IMO it would have looked better with white wall tires, though ;)

This post was edited by j0nd03 on Thu, Mar 7, 13 at 17:09

"I too hate them. We managed to burn over a 1000 acres of them just south in the canyon country. If left unchecked they will take over grazing land planting prohibited in this area."

I think you may be getting them mixed up with Saltcedars (an entirely different plant). Juniperus virginiana is a NATIVE to Nebraska. Any plant that is able to grow in an area will populate a vacuum, but Juniperus virginiana should not be that much of an issue. The species certainly isn't a legally prohibited plant there. That's another reason I'm guessing you are getting it mixed up with saltcedars, which are classified as a noxious weed in that state.

Saltcedars are sucking up the water along the Rio Grande & are being destroyed there now so the native shrubs/trees can multiply. The wood I understand burns with a very intense heat & is good firewood. They were good for stabilizing the river banks & birds like them but they do guzzle water if given a chance! I have one in my yard in a corner by an alley & it gets very little additional water. The birds love to nest in it & the pinkish/red fragrant flowers are attractive. Create a mess in the fall when the 'leaves' dry & fall in heaps on the ground. Ket in chec, they can be an attractive tree

Many years ago a tree that is now called 'Chinese Elm' was introduced here to provide much needed shade in this arid climate. Well, it now has gone 'native' & though not allowed to be sold or planted any more, there is an unlimited natural supply now growing along the streams, arroyos,mesas as the tons of those horrible 'elm seeds' fly miles in the wind in spring & sprout everywhere (just like the so-called 'Tree of Heaven'!). I understand our 'Chinese Elms' are really ? 'Siberian Elms' & the worst of the two! They thrive w/o any additional water & seem to live forever with no diseases. So I guess even the red cedars growing in excess would be despised under those conditions!

...but this thread is NOT about saltcedars!!!

brandon7: sorry, but I just mentioned another tree that if misplaced or over planted like the red cedar, can be a problem but in another situation can be great....

John,
If you have not yet noticed, the native ERC along I-40 Ft. Smith westward tends very strongly to grow in a columnar form. Nearly every tree you see along the road is tall and narrow. Noticed it several years ago while traveling west along 40. Next time your out that way, look around, I'm sure it hasn't changed.

Arktrees

Yep! There are some 30' tall and no more than 3' wide. Incredible variation in growth. I have only seen this variation beside the highway and not in the woods for some reason. I really have no idea what the heck is going on lol

The ones out around OKC also grow in a different manner than the local ones. Not only are they short and fat/wide (to be expected) but their branching also looks a little different.

Speaking of different, the blackjack oaks in the Tulsa area look like a totally different species than the local ones. The leaves look VERY different. Smaller, with pronounced lobing if I remember. The local ones are more duck foot shaped.

John

John,
I was not aware of the Blackjack Oaks being different in that area, but then again I'm not over there very often, and when I am, usually not where there are allot of trees. Next time I'm over that way, I will try to keep a watch for them.

Arktrees

you can work them into the smallest of gardens and condo yards
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j. virginiana 'goin' postal'? :-)

Pictured here is a venerable specimen of Red Cedar from the cemetery of Christ Church in Dover, Delaware. I like how the tree seems to belong there.
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I have a small one (it was a volunteer) and is about 10ft tall. It had 2 leaders and I cut them off and I am training a new leader. I am going to attempt to train it into a formal hedge, because that is what I want in the spot.

LIKE camp here too. They are actually a "must plant" tree for native revegetation projects here where I live (coastal). I've ordered one, for spring planting. I am in the process myself of adding in natives so excited about the ERC. I had thuja green giants planted for quick privacy and not being fully native, they will prob not all survive so looking to get native (pines, cedar, etc) for long term effect. We really enjoy the look of them & LOVE the bird attraction. Will have cedar rust issues I'm almost positive but willing to stay vigilant. Sidenote: I had planted 2 serviceberries (bare root) 3 years ago and sadly had to rip them out due to severe rust, deer & rabbit damage .. they never rooted properly and never had a chance :(

alexiebalexie: Cedar Apple Rust rarely makes the cedars noticeably sick...they are carriers.

The big weaknesses of ERC (to my mind) are that it looks somewhat ratty in shade, and can get an unattractive maroon-green color in the winter...so be careful to plant it in full sun if it is being used ornamental, and keep weeds away. They actually look a lot like thuja. If I was planting one for decoration I'd plant a female. Big selling points of the tree are the berries, the salt resistance, wind resistance, and disease resistance. Most other salt resistant conifers are plagued by disease where I live.

If you want to buy native Eastern Red Cedar, the cheapest option would be to ask friends who have acreage...they probably have seedlings they are planning to weed. Also look into the State Nurseries for your state and neighboring states and County Soil Conservation Offices. This is a good time of year to do both. I hear there are blue cultivars but I've never seen one.

Thuja actually do well in coastal areas. Not as much salt resistance as ERC...but their salt resistance is decent. Some species are native to most of the US.

Where are you? If you are looking for native trees for coastal areas I'd look into Pitch Pine (pinus rigida), White Oak (quercus alba), American Holly (ilex opaca), and American Persimmon.

Interesting you say Eastern Red Cedar Cedar cannot tolerate shade or wet conditions. Western Red Cedar, on the other hand, seems to have an advantage over other trees in shadier wetter conditions, because the wood resists rot and insects. And to make the irony all the greater, the West Coast tends to be much drier than the East Coast! How to explain it then? Well, the west coast gets most of its rain in the winter, that means that evergreen trees have an advantage. The east coast gets more rain during the growing season, so cedar would have a hard time competing with other trees in dense forest areas. The same preservative qualities in cedar wood also keep insects from causing the tree to lose precious water in dry areas. The Southeast has a longer growing season than the Northeast, so again that is more to the advantage of deciduous trees. It may be that the nature of the species can better tolerate extremes, and the Northwest certainly has that with very wet winters and then dry summers.

Western Red Cedar is a Thuja while Eastern Red Cedar is a Juniperus...different genus. Western Red Cedar on the west coast is at its best in the temperate rainforest though it is more drought tolerant than say, Sitka Spruce or Leyland Cypress. The term 'cedar' has it's origins with the Cedar of Lebanon but has been applied to many trees with fragrant durable wood regardless of genus.

Not sure I understand the argument that what season is wet makes a difference...trees can be killed by water when they are dormant. Am I missing something?

Maybe White Cedar, maple, birch, and hemlock had the market on wet shady spots cornered on the East Coast.

Eastern Red cedar is a pioneer species. It's current niche is it uses birds that eat it's berries as a vector, so it gets to highway median strips, isolated coastal spots, and recently cleared land far from woods long before pines or oaks can. It thrives on sandy coastal areas and highway median strips where it gets splattered with salt spray. It typically dies off when pines, oaks and maples take over. Unlike other pioneer species it can live a VERY long time...if it is in a yard where people mow around it, or a rocky crag or cliff where nothing else can grow.

The problem with shade isn't that it's wood rots. The problem is that it loses foliage in shaded spots, and like most conifers, can't regenerate lower branches it loses. This means if you have a thicket of trees, then clear away many of them, the ERC will forever have big holes in it's foliage. Also creates aesthetic problems if you try to make a really dense hedge out of it. It may be perfectly healthy, just unattractive. (Why thuja, holly and yew are more often used as hedges)

This is a long thread so I may have not seen this answered yet, but my neighbor complains about my 'male' red cedar & its pollen & his allergies. But- I had ever seen only the 'cones' so told him 'it must be a female & they do not produce pollen!'. Oh, good grief... with this wind I now see 'clouds' of pollen flying everywhere from my tree!! So do they all ( red cedars) have both on a tree?

It was my understanding that the trees come in separate male and female trees...I would have agreed with your original idea. They also tend not to produce visible clouds of pollen. Could there be a smaller tree, shrub or vine squished up against your tree?

they are usually dioecious or will either be a male or a female tree. i have read that rarely one can be monoecious. i happen to have one of each along the western edge of my lot and can vouch that the males can produce copious clouds of pollen during wind gusts.

I'm not sure what this 'cloud' of ?'dust' could be other than pollen? Am quite sure that what I refer to as 'cones' are really cones .. what else could they be that look like cones? The tree is ?50 yrs. old & a beautiful shape/about 40 ft. now; it is pruned up about 8 ft. so it is a tree form & the birds just love to congregate in it! I'd like to somehow keep it from getting any taller ... how tall DO they get? But it would destroy the nice shape it has now I guess.We have to watch the branches though as some of our house power lines run through it & we have the Power Co. come to prune out around the lines once in awhile. Are these trees deep rooted? I have never seen any seedlings come from these cones though.

Thank you for your suggestions, ideas & help!

Look HERE to see if your cones look like them.

tj

A few days ago birds were fighting in my larch which produced clouds of dust, when I went to look sure enough it was pollen. My male taxus are releasing pollen now, brush up against the plant and you get a dusting of pollen.

Vieja is posting from NM and is probably talking about one of the western species but the principle remains the same.

I like J. v. for a number of reasons. First, it is tolerant and tough, which I find admirable. Second, the fruit set can be impressive and a welcome site when the weather grows bleak. Finally, it can be an attractive tree, made more so by the fact no two are exactly alike. Some are wide spreading, while others have a distinct upright habit. I've been driving past this one for twenty years and find the pendulous habit of interest. It was tough to get a good picture and it is growing in too much shade, which makes it look uneven, but it definitely stands out from the more typical junipers.

'no two are exactly alike'

J.v. can take very interesting shapes under the right conditions and with no human intervention. This was taken a couple of week ago along a highway in western MN. They will grow in poor soil and are drought tolerant.

maackia, Woodlanders is selling a weeping form that looks like that, and I ordered it last fall. Theirs was collected down in SC so may not be as hardy as yours.

David, I was wondering if a weeping form was on the market. I haven't done any research to find one, but it's not something I recall ever seeing in the retail trade. I wish I could talk the owners into clearing space to the west and north of it, which would allow it to develop more fully. There's a White Pine to the north of it that I'm afraid will eventually smother it. If I knew anything about grafting I'd ask for some material and give it a go.

I meant to add earlier that Red Cedar is a bit more shade tolerant than given credit for, at least when young. I've got a few volunteers growing here, including one on north side of garage that is in fairly heavy shade and looks nice so far. They also pop up in the woods, which is a bit surprising.

vieja_gw(z7NM):

Eastern Red Cedar are deep rooted and very wind resistant. The female "cones" look more like little blue berries then the cones of a pine tree. They are eaten by birds, so the "babies" could be fairly far away. Also, they don't tolerate shade, so if there are larger trees or tall grass it could smother the babies.

The male cones are tiny nondescript brown things. Could you post a picture of your tree? The cones of arborvitae look more like cones then those of ERC. Wondering if you misidentified it.

They can get very big, but they grow slowly. The huge ones are likely ancient.

They probably wouldn't take well to pruning to limit growth. They can't regenerate lost lower limbs, so wouldn't be very forgiving of pruning mistakes.

edlincoln- thanks! yes we do have a pitch pine already & looking at adding in Ilex opaca too!

alexiebalexie Be sure to plant a separate make and female American Holly!
What do you think of your pitch pine? I just recently planted some babies.

Wow this is ken's nightmare thread. A bunch of people who like eastern redcedar!

edlincoln- I LOVE love love my PITCH PINE! got her as a little tiny little thing but she has already put on a foot (maybe 1.5ft) of growth i'd say (3 years in the ground). she sits in a lovely spot in my garden with sun and will be quite the specimen one day i think. high hopes for my ERC coming in May!

I thought pitch pine were homely but on paper the are the perfect native evergreen for a windbreak/privacy screen under the conditions of my parent's yard. Spent a long time looking for a source. Bought a bunch of tiny ones cheap...too early to know what they will look like. I find your comments encouraging.

Getting a bit off topic with the Pitch Pine talk. Regardless, a well grown one is quite majestic. This ~100 yr one is at the arboretum in Ottawa, Ontario.

Pitch pine Antietam battlefield (Sharpsburg, MD):

Another near Columbia, MD:

Nice pix, here's another one in the dunes of Cape Henlopen shaped by the ocean wind. Notice abundant cone production.

Incense cedar (Calocedrus decurrens) also smells good.

Shingles can be made from many species of trees. These are traditionally split with a mallet & froe. The only problem with ERC is it won't split. No worries HERE is the solution. Can't you just smell that great cedar aroma?

Wow, thanks for bumping your own thread sam. A quick google journey reading about the Pygmy Pine forest made me aware of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudsonia_ericoides

I would never have guessed we have our own Cistaceae on the US east coast! I want to try to cross it with one of my European ones! (I also think someone should try to cross Rhexia with Tibouchina LOL)