Every dictionary I have looked at defines "Top Soil" as the top 4 to 6 inches of soil from someplace, so there is nothing sold in a bag in a store that can actually be "top soil". Conversations with many people over many years leads me to the conclusion that to most everyone "topsoil" is supposed to be a soil type known as loam, 45 percent sand, 25 percent silt, 25 percent clay, and 5 percent organic matter. The term "topsoil" is not "generally unregulated" it is not regulated at all and the "topsoil" someone sells can be anything they want it to be.
"Garden soil" falls into the same category because that term is as meaningless as "topsoil".
"Organic topsoil" is even more meaningless since all soil is organic. I'm not sure what inorganic soil would look like.
Where I grew up the soil was loam and a few, very few, places I have gardened also had a soil type known as loam but those places are few and far between. The market for soil is humongous or there would not be so many sellers involved and many sell stuff that is no good. However, I was once at a garden center and someone was looking at some bags of soil that had split and had some plants growing from them. That person was not sure about buying this soil that gave every indication that it was alive.
If you are going to suggest to someone that they use a soil be sure you can define what you think they should be using and not use meaningless terms such as "topsoil" or "garden soil".

Just to clarify, topsoil is the surface layer that contains a mix of mineral and organic matter. It doesn't matter how think it is. Farming moved from New England to the MIdwest because much of New England had just a few inches of topsoil because of the last Ice Age, and the Midwest had many feet.

You could mix topsoil by adding organic matter to subsoil fill, or you have to scrape it off construction sites. Both are an expensive product. Landscapers who can just pass on the cost can afford it - the rest of us are stuck.

"much of New England had just a few inches of topsoil because of the last Ice Age,"

I would debate that claim. For a hilly region new england, by accounts written by the early settlers, had very abundant soil resources, though clearly much more fragile than much of the midwest. What removed the topsoil was aggressively stupid agricultural practices and immense population growth of livestock, especially sheep. Deforestation and over-grazing, some old story, and it will happen again given half a chance.

"Top soil" is no matter where you are the top 4 to 6 inches of soil from someplace and it may, or may not, contain organic matter.
What passes for "top soil" in New England is not the same as the "top soil" in the southwest which is not the same as what is in Idaho which is different than the "top soil" in Florida.
The "top soil" my sister has (clay) 6 miles west of me is much different then the "top soil" I have (sand), but the common need of both soils is the need for organic matter. Neither of us have spent much money buying more of the mineral component of soil although we have spend much time and energy getting adequate amounts of organic matter into the soils we have.
When a person here talks about "top soil" they should define what they mean by that term, and "garden soil" should be as well.

I think it is fair to say that the term when closely examined means nothing. Most people, though (and despite Kimm's insistence) when they use it mean to describe an ideal garden soil - that perfect case of loamy soil with some but not too much silt, clay, and SOM. Of course nothing like that would ever be for sale consistently.

So the answer to the OP question is no.

"Topsoil" is extremely variable by location. It is also commonly manufactured or constructed (the term is unregulated). That said, a decent soil yard will be able to provide you with a reasonable soil textural specification of what they are selling as topsoil and tell you if it is a constructed or amended soil, or a reclaimed natural topsoil. My understanding is that nearly all of the bagged stuff is a constructed soil.

added point - "topsoil" is really more of a landscaping term than a soil designation. It is quite common for large scale landscaping projects, especially municipal projects, to include specifications for the textural composition of "topsoil", and many municipalities have standards specifications for "topsoil". In addition, ASTM International also has a Standard Specification for Topsoil Used for Landscaping Purposes (pdf link below), which is often referenced for commercial landscaping projects. So, yes, there are standards, but they tend to be broad and ranging.

Here is a link that might be useful: ASTM D 5268

I prefer to separate the two definitions of 'organic' into 'Organic' - chemical-free - and 'organic', meaning containing organic matter. Compost is made from organic matter. Very unlikely that you'll find "Organic compost" or "Organic topsoil", as in certified to be chemical-free. There are no quality standards for bagged compost, or topsoil either.

Fafard *is* a good brand, but I agree with you that if it's missing the mineral fraction - which is most of what soil is - it's basically compost or a soil amendment.

Ironically, it's usually the other way around with bagged products: bags of 'compost' usually have too much soil in them, especially the cheaper ones.

Fafard is awesome for clean spag peat...one of the best (if not the best) for quality/clean and well graded spag peat.

That said...what they sell as "top soil" shouldn't be sold by them. It is just peat, mushroom compost, and sand...and a whole lot of it is small grade peat that breaks down really quickly in the right environment.

I just find it goes along with all the many reasons it's difficult to expect to be able to trust people these days. Why should any company need the government to step in and regulate an industry to prevent them from doing something like saying you are selling topsoil, when it is not? People know what they are doing and that it is wrong, but they require someone to make them do the right thing because otherwise if they can get away with it they will.

As for bagged compost, what about the Coast of Maine company? That is my one and only company that I still trust to provide something that is actually organic, and now I realize that I don't know why I trust them, because I don't know any more about that company than I do another.

As for building up my beds, Two years ago, I started a new raised bed that is 10ft long by 4 ft wide and a foot high. My entire 1/4 acre property is level, so it's not like I can take soil from one area and add it to the bed. But as I've brought home plants and planted them, any time I've had an extra 5 gallon pot of my own soil, I've added it to that bed. I threw grass clippings in it for two summers and actually added about 3 bags of that Fafard topsoil and another 3 bags of Coast of Maine Compost last spring. Through the summer, the year before instead of adding compost to our pile, I put all the kitchen scraps in that bed, under the thick mulch of grass clippings and leaves that were as high as the top of the bed.

I loosened it up w a pitch fork last week and it appears to be of very nice composition. Lots of worms, nice texture and easily worked. My soil is normally what I think is a clay on the loamy side.

I am planting in that this spring after working on it and adding just one bag of Fafard and one 1/2 bag of CofM compost, the soil level is about 1/2 way up the bed. Which I expect will shrink once again by the end of the season to the level of before I loosened it up which was barely 1/4 of the way up the bed.

So, if I start another bed and attempt to work it the way I've done with this bed, two years later, I'm still at only 1/4 of the way up the bed basically, with only adding organic matter and a few 5 gallon buckets of my own soil from around the property. But it sounds like unless I can find a local company that is selling real 'soil' from their own site and can trust them that it has not been used in an agricultural way using chemicals or a lawn that had chemicals on it, then I don't know what I'll be adding to my vegetable beds.

I guess there is no reason to need the soil in my long bed to be higher than 1/4 way up the bed if it is easily worked and full of worms, and I'm basically planting in my own soil for the most part. I think of it as 'composting in place' or 'sheet composting' on a small scale and growing in a compost pile, I guess.

Any other thoughts?

As everyone that has repied thus far has stated there is no such product that can be called "top soil" except in a very confusing context.
i have written here many times that the people I talk with about what they expect "top soil" to be they describe what is known as loam, a specific soil type not readily available everywhere. If someone asks about a good soil what should then be described to them should be a soil containing 45 percent sand, 25 percent silt, 25 percent clay, and 5 percent organic matter (loam) and not some meaningless term such as "top soil".

" I'm basically planting in my own soil for the most part"

And if your soil is as you say a clayey loam then you are pretty much set. If it were me I would not spend money on trying to import actual soil and instead buy fertility for your existing soil - dehydrated chicken manure, for example, or some quality organic fertilizer. Along with the mulch you can grow on site you can kick up the system to a high level I should think.

Just for reference, here is a typical municipal standard specification for "topsoil". This comes from Houston / Harris County, TX. It is fairly typical of others I have seen. Some standards are statewide, and they are common for large-scale commercial landscaping projects as well. As you will see it covers a very wide range of soil textures. The method references are to ASTM standards, and are commonly used in soils labs.

The City of Austin has a similar spec, but they also specifically prohibit the use of a local soil often used for residential landscaping that is described as Austin Sandy Loam and is widely known locally as "red death".

A good soil yard will be able to provide a soil characterization for what they are offering as topsoil - they have to for selling to the various municipalities, states, etc.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ITEM 160 TOPSOIL
C. Imported Topsoil shall conform to the following requirements:

TABLE NO. 1
Specification
UNIT
VALUE
APPLICABLE STANDARD

Soil Reaction
pH
5.5-8(a)
ASTM D4972

Passing No. 4 Sieve
% 95-100
ASTM D422

Sand Size, 2.0-0.05 mm
% 10-70
ASTM D422

Silt Size, 0.05-0.005 mm
% 0-40
ASTM D1140

Clay Size, % 20-50
ASTM D1140

Easily Oxidizable Organic Matter
% 2.5-10(b)
ASTM D2974
AASHTO T194

D. Topsoil shall have Liquid Limit

Yes, I am convinced, that purchasing topsoil is just not the option I hoped it would be. And I'm drawing the conclusion that just working on the existing soil under the raised bed and composting in place to raise the fertility, will probably work out the best for me.

Thank you anyway for the topsoil info, Tex.

I don't know why I'd love to have a full 12 inches of soil in those raised beds, but maybe that is the wrong goal.

Thanks, you've all helped clarify that for me. Wondering if anyone had any opinions on Coast of Maine as a company whose bagged compost would be worthwhile to supplement my own efforts with these beds?

Dehydrated chicken manure, huh? Maybe it's time to start raising chickens for the manure and the eggs. (g)

Products vary by region and I haven't seen Coast of Maine here. But, whenever buying bagged products, I always look for a broken bag and check out the contents. You can see the texture right away and whether it's got clay balls, lots of sand added, too much or too little compost or wood chips, etc. It's harder to get test info for composts, but generally you get what you pay for, and aside from that, getting some organic matter (virtually any kind) into a poor soil is better than not.

I have bought "topsoill" in bags from all of our local stores trying to find real soil in one of those bags NO LUCK! Actually 10 or 12 years ago you could actually find decent topsoil in bags from home depot, lowes, walmart etc. I dont know what happened and why its not available now. They should be ashamed. I also need soil this year to fill in holes, and some in my garden. I dont want buy from the companies that sell by the truck load. Thats just too much! And expensive. I have looked all over I was hoping someone knew where it can be purchased by the bag as in the distant past.

It’s for sale. Just not in bags. Land developers are notorious for scraping off the topsoil of the farms they turn into subdivisions. You’ll find it for sale in loose form at a landscape yard.

It's for sale in bags as well....at least it is here. Because there is no regulation as to what can called or sold as 'topsoil', you will get all manner of stuff being sold under that lable, some of which can be legitimate topsoil.

Topsoil has no magical properties.....it is just the top or surface layer of soil on undeveloped land. It is often quite rocky or rooty and with minimal organic matter. There is no reason why you cannot use some other inexpensive bagged soil product to fill holes or add to your garden. And would likely be better off doing so. btw, bulk soil will always be cheaper than bagged stuff, volume for volume. And most bulk soil yards will let you buy as little or as much as you need if you do the bagging !!

"They should be ashamed."

LOL! Why?? Because they are not selling something you want? Retailers do that all the time if a product does not sell well or does not return suitable margins. It's called free enterprise!

One of the former Cooperative Extension agents in my county told me about a topsoil experience that I think of almost like an educational fable.

A local resident had built a very nice raised bed and filled it with bagged topsoil from a local garden center (one of the Big ones). He had used bagged topsoil in other garden beds with good results in past years, but this time the plants he set into that new bed didn't grow, even after several weeks had gone by. By the time he decided to visit the Extension office for help, the plants were yellowed and puny.

He was asked to bring a soil sample in to send to the soil lab at UGA, and the report he got back showed that the pH of that topsoil was below 5.

It was very acidic soil!

Most of our garden veggies will do better with a soil pH in the 6-6.5 range (7 is neutral; vinegar is around 2.5). No wonder the poor plants were struggling.

He would have been better off with the peat/sand/compost "top soil", described up top by prairiemoon2, from Fafard.

The lessons I learned from that old agent's top soil fable were that bagged topsoil is probably not standardized in terms of contents (at least, not in Georgia), and that soil pH needs to be tested when large amounts of new amendments are added to a garden.

Thank you, prairiemoon2, for sharing your experience! It reminded me of the story.

-Amy, in Georgia, zone 7b

@HU: Soil and compost products are produced regionally, even at the big box stores, so whatever one finds in Missouri or Texas won't be the same stuff found in Oregon or New York. I can understand your frustration when you can't find actual soil in your area. Keep looking, you may find a nursery that has the right stuff.

I always check the contents of the bag before buying. I've seen what you're reporting,

'topsoil' that is compost and shredded mulch, but I've also seen bags of 'compost' that looked like mineral soil. I don't care what it says on it, if it's $1.49 I'll just get the one I need. :-] It does suck though.

As for 'free enterprise', this is not that, it's false labeling. Like buying 'honey' and finding out it's 90% corn syrup. Is it legal? Sure, as long as they list ingredients and don't say "100%" or "Pure" on it. But it's a little deceptive, don't you think?

Just what I was thinking toxcrusadr, about the labeling.

Caveat emptor :-) What actually constitutes "real" topsoil is pretty easy to find out. But there are no regulations on labeling soil products, so what is in them could be just about anything, although better bagged soil suppliers will typically list the ingredients. FWIW, the Fafard's so-called topsoil that was the start of this thread doesn't even contain any actual soil, let alone topsoil!! It is compost, peat moss and processed bark. Just reading the label ingredients should assure you that this is not topsoil!!

IME, around here anything bagged and sold as topsoil is generally not. Since topsoil is just ordinary "dirt" with minimal organic matter, the purveyors of bagged goods juice it up with other ingredients to make it more appealing to home gardeners that think topsoil is something special.

Even bulk suppliers here seldom sell pure topsoil. Although most have a high percentage of sandy loam soil as the base ingredient, they amp it up with compost and usually some sort of drainage enhancer, like sand or sawdust.

I think you miss the point, gardengal. Top soil is a common term for what just about everyone thinks of as the top layer of soil on the ground, not bark mulch or peat moss. And sure, 'buyer beware', which doesn't negate the fact, that the people selling their product labeled as topsoil, know it's not topsoil, so why not label it what it is? That's all that's being said here.

What's sold in my area if you buy bulk topsoil, by the cu yard, is clay soil mixed with sand, which is shredded. If you want bulk topsoil then I'd suggest you add compost to that product 3:1. 3 yards of topsoil and 1 yard of compost. What's sold here is mushroom compost.

If you want a few bags then use the clay you have add some sand from the big box store ( don't use the play sand, too fine). For the compost I'd go to a bulk seller with some bags. They'll sell to you by the bag full if you do the filling. I doubt they'll help you load so don't put more in a bag than you can lift.

Is this real top soil?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Scotts-Premium-0-75-cu-ft-Top-soil-71130756/100619053

Nope! Real topsoil is the scraping of the first 4-6 inches of uncultivated soil, usually done pre-construction or pre-development. It contains no peat and minimal organic matter.

Doesn't mean the bagged stuff is necessarily bad....it is just not "real" topsoil.

So its not topsoil mixed with peatmoss?

No way to know without looking at the label or ingredient list......which it may or may not have.

Did find a label with ingredients from the Scott's website which states: "This product is regionally formulated (from one or more of the following: peat, processed forest products, rice hulls, native soil, food waste and/or compost) and sphagnum peat moss. Doesn't sound like the native soil is a significant percentage of the various ingredients, if it is there at all.

Actually, that label is rather confusing as written. Just another reason why I avoid Scott's and Miracle Gro products :-)

I've never bought topsoil. To me it never made any sense to add it to a garden. Top soil is everywhere unless of course you're gardening on a rock outcropping.

It is not everywhere when dealing with relatively new construction. As part of the development/land clearing process, existing topsoil is scraped off and sold to soil yards. What is left is subsoil and then a minimal topping - usually just a couple of inches at most - of reapplied topsoil or garden planting/landscape mix after construction (and further soil compaction) is completed. This is very harsh and hostile growing environment for most plants......including lawns.

Adding to or improving the soil is a standard process for any recent construction or new development.

True. But is'nt topsoil usually just a mixture of subsoil plus organic matter? Would'nt it still make more sense to add compost for the missing organic component.

"But is'nt topsoil usually just a mixture of subsoil plus organic matter?"

Not really. Topsoil and subsoil are two distinctly different horizons in the soii profile, formed after 100's to 1000's of years. Subsoil is almost entirely mineral in make up, often very dense/compacted and hard to work. Just mixing subsoil with OM is not gonna get you topsoil......unless you are patient enough to wait a few hundred years :-)

Yeah, native topsoil takes a long time to form. But if you showed me a pile of compost and a pile of local subsoil with compost mixed in, I would say the latter is closer to 'topsoil' than the former. In fact I bought a yard of that a couple years ago - silt harvested from a creek bottom field mixed with some manure compost. Needless to say I added more compost cause that's how I roll. :-D

BTW the compost product testing I did a few years ago found at least one 'compost' product whose dry matter (minus all the water) was over 90% 'ash' i.e. mineral soil and not organic matter. That one would have passed for 'topsoil'.

BTW (referring to a post above from a couple days ago), Gardengal rarely 'misses the point.' :-]

So then what else is in topsoil besides mineral and organic components ? The subsoil in my neighborhood 1' to 1.5' below the surface is pure white sugar sand. The topsoil is sand stained with organic matter. The topsoil is usually a greyish color. Mine is now black because I constantly put down shredded plant debris as mulch. It breaks down very quickly here.

"Real" topsoil? Typically rocks, roots and a whole lotta weed seeds!! Often it is screened when sold in bulk (IMO, the only way to purchase proper topsoil) to remove the larger materials but not always.

Dealing with a soil that is almost entirely sand is not in my repertoire so I don't have much to offer you other than to add as much OM as you can manage. Eventually over time you may arrive at a very sandy loam for the top soil profile.

Gardengal,

"Just mixing subsoil with OM is not gonna get you topsoil"

""Real" topsoil typically has rocks, roots and a whole lotta weed seeds!!"

Hehe It almost sounds like you're saying we couldn't get top soil by mixing organic matter with subsoil just because we might be missing rocks, roots, and weed seeds lol.

What components are missing from the mixture of organic matter and mineral based subsoils that would make it not constitute a top soil?

Joe, just by definition, if you are starting wth subsoil you are not gonna wind up with topsoil by adding anything to it.....other than possibly a lot of time :-) If you took geology or any soil science classes in school you would have learned that it takes around 500 years to make 1 inch of topsoil. What you will have is subsoil amended with OM - nothing more. It is not so much the ingredients.....it is the process.

And all those websites that tell you how to "make" your own topsoil are just blowing smoke. Following their directions, all you will be doing is amending your existing soil, whatever it is. Ma Nature can make topsoil....we humans cannot.

I've found that I can grow what I want with my fake "topsoil". If you're blessed with a property with a few feet of loam or topsoil is one thing. But here I'm trying to get by with a property that looks like the topsoil was stripped for who knows what reason. It's not a formal subdivision. At my last place there was a neighbor who sold off his topsoil off a 100 acres many years before it went up for a subdivision.

I remember a property outside of Philly with a few feet of it. And I saw a property being excavated in Columbus for a fastfood shop with at least a foot. The best I've ever had was the property with a few holes with a foot.

Time does make a difference. But you can do OK pretty quickly with compost, you don't have to wait centuries, even if it is 'an approximation.' :-]

I learned a hard lesson. I was somehow persuaded that, not only did they need to remove truckload after truckload of my topsoil for an addition in 2002, they also needed to construct a "road" around my property. To do that required them removing the rest of my soil to a considerable depth and replacing it with gravel. At the end of the job, I was told I needed to buy "topsoil" back for my yard. I thought I was buying my own presumably ancient soil back, but the first load they brought was a shadow of my former dark soil. The load was mixed with sand and small rocks---not gravel---rocks. I stopped them bringing me any more, privately pissed off about the crooked practice, and naively believing that I could rebuild the yard with compost. I've made decent growing areas with tons of homemade compost these last 17 years, but there's a lot of labor involved for me. I'm sometimes tempted to buy myself a load of stolen soil.

I figure one of the best things I do in my growing medium is make it attractive to worms, which it apparently is. I have large populations of red wrigglers, nightcrawler and earthworms. My father actually "seeded" our lawn here with nightcrawlers when I was a kid. I have very few memories of my father, but one of them is him running about the lawn that next morning flapping a dish towel at the dozens of birds feasting on all the worms that hadn't burrowed in the night like he thought they would. I think the huge nightcrawlers in my garden are descendants.

A few years ago, a 'soil' place bought a 7 acre field and used the 'topsoil' to be sold as topsoil. Now that is real topsoil.

I'll bet you anything they diluted it, although the topsoil that was taken here was immediately deposited at the man-who-removed-it father's house a mile and a half down the road---undiluted. Then he brought me a load of someone else's diluted junk.

There's a woman here who sold her topsoil, and her house now sits on property that is made of deep rivulets, and is covered with unattractive tall grasses. I was disgusted by it, but then my brother suggested she might need the money.

Well I've done pretty amazing growing in my "topless" soil by simply adding organic matter to it. My yard is super lush and I have no topsoil if I go by the definition of topsoil by a few on here. what I like to refer to as my "topsoil" though is very black and loamy feeling now because of all the "chop and drop" material I regularly shredd and put down.

What is 'chop and drop' material? I'm guessing just whatever organic matter chopped and left in place?

I think it's pointless to worry about what is precisely topsoil (or what to do with the subsoil); obviously if you can find good 'soil' for sale at a decent price, go for it. Otherwise whatever large amounts of organic matter can be sourced, some cover crops, ideally some that root well, and time. There are plants that will grow directly in organic matter, and the organic matter that decomposes will eventually partly mineralize or turn into humus. You work with what you have and can source locally. There are some like peat I wouldn't bother with personally, and I've found woodchips to be far less problematic (esp the so-called nitrogen tie-up issue) than many say. Obviously will also depend on local conditions as well.

Joe - what do you mean... ' you keep the soil always shaded because the solarization will quickly kill them?'

prairiemoon, well the shredded stuff keeps nearly all of the ground protected from the sun as do the plantings, and living ground covers. But I just meant I pay close attention that I don't get any areas where the "chop and drop material" decomposed before I got to replenish it.

By solarization I just meant soil/ground exposed to the sun. Here the sun is so strong that it seems to quickly degrade the soil, heats it up very fast, drys it out, just sucks the life out of it. The wind too can do that.

Now I understand what you meant. We don't have the weather conditions to deal with here that you do there, but I try to make sure I have no bare soil too. I wish I could produce enough shredded organic matter as a mulch everywhere on my property but, I don't do as much as I'd like. I use bark mulch and chopped leaves everywhere there isn't grass. But by the end of the summer, the leaf mulch is getting pretty thin. That is in the shadier parts of the yard, so at least it has that going for it.

The same thing actually happens here in MO with the clay soil in the hot dry summer. It can get hard as rock with cracks in it.. I keep the gardens mulched to prevent this. Also in spring it's fluffy from freezing/thawing all winter, but spring rains pounding it will remove all that and only enhance the hard-as-rock effect when summer comes. So things are covered pretty much all year.