Seeing these beautiful pictures really made me want to own one. I don't know when I've seen a more beautiful pink tea rose.

Ingrid

I love it too for the very reasons you name. The first one I had was from ARE and didn't bloom as much as the one I l got later from another source (It was being sold as Triomphe de Luxembourg.)

Wow, I might have to put that one on the wish list. Where did you get it?

collinw, this rose came from Vintage.

oh my! Thank you for sharing this wonderful rose!

How big is it and how old, this is my list to get here in a week but I can't find how big it gets I know size differs in zones but at least an idea will be great..

Its very beautiful

Oh, to die for!!! Must have it! I'm curious about your rose's actual size, too, Catspa. Love the red canes.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

JessicaBe and Sherry, Just measured it: it's about 5' tall and 6' wide and deep. It's been in the ground 8 years or so. In contrast, Mrs. B.R. Cant, the same age and growing next to RJG, is 8 feet tall (was more like 9', but winds and the weight of its flowers leveled out the top canes a few weeks ago), and 12' wide.

Catspa, those are gorgeous photos of a gorgeous rose!

I edited the Wikipedia page on this rose's namesake, the hybridizer and collector Jules Gravereaux, and I'm wondering if you would let me post a copy of one of these photos on his Wikipedia page? I have a list of some roses named for him and this is one on the list.

Here is a link that might be useful: Jules Gravereaux on Wikipedia

Reg, please feel free to post any photos you want there. Until reading the Wikipedia page just now, I had no idea who he was -- very interesting!

Catspa is RJG a fast grower?

Gorgous, voluptuous to die for pics. Many thanks.
Jeannie

JessicaBe, RJG got to this size within 4 or 5 years. I trim it back maybe 20% (or less) in winter, only to shape and clean up the bush.

Thank you all for the compliments on the pictures; with a rose like this, though, it's hard to miss!

Thank you
:)

I'm curious about what sizes people have seen this in other areas. Unless I'm misremembering something, this rose in my garden grows more like a climber. I'll have to check the tag later.

Catspa, thanks for letting me use your photos. Could you email me through GardenWeb with your real name and specific permission to use your photo? I'll need it for the copyright info for Wikipedia. They really don't want people posting other people's work willy-nilly.

OK the photo is up on Wikipedia now. I think it makes a nice addition. I got a lot of the information on Jules Gravereaux from the French Wikipedia page which I ran through Google Translator. But - good thing I have some knowledge of how French works, and what M. Gravereaux did, as Google Translator sucks. It consistently mixed up the personal pronouns he, she, and it; switched past and present tenses; and translated distilling rose oil as distilling gasoline.

Hey Catspa can you send me an email? jessica.beyer@live.com

Vintage lists this as one of their "3" teas, so it may in time grow to be quite large.

I also took a close look at mine in the pot ghetto, open shade under a crape myrtle. The leaves definitely look stressed and some are spotted, though not with a recognizable disease. None of the other roses there , all teas, show these symptoms. I carefully groomed it, pulling off all the discolored leaves, then placed it in a sunnier spot. Yours just gleams with good health, so I'm wondering why mine looks so sad when all the other teas next to it are fine. Anyway, I'm going to give it more water and more sun for a while in hopes that it improves. I want mine to look like yours when it grows up!

Oh, well, Rosefolly, Vintage's "growth habit" classifications. They list Mme. Antoine Mari as a "1". Mine is 6' fall and 11' wide all around, and is not wider only because I whack it back some every year to rescue the path. I planted her in the "front" of a bed because she was only supposed to be about 3' tall (per the Vintage cartoons). Ha-ha; I have now redefined where the "front" of the bed is. To be fair, Vintage's estimates are far and away reliable, but there are some "doozies" in there.

I think you are on the right track with more water and sun. Until last year, RJG's leaves always developed brown edges and spots and looked somewhat bad most of the time. Figuring the salts in the soil here might be a factor, I made an effort last year to give him more water. My RJG is also at the foot of a hill and, until last year, had G. Nabonnand looming over him from above. Last spring, I had finally had it with G. Nabonnand's tenaciously and pervasively mildewed state and removed him. With more light (not to mention less mildew) at his back and more water, RJG looked much better last year and this year has beautiful foliage.

Maybe he will get bigger without the "mildew monster" breathing down his neck? Time will tell. He is putting up some new basals in the back.

If RJG and Triomphe de Luxembourg are synonyms, does anyone grow both and think one or the other is better? A friend in Florida has both and likes TDL better. Better flowers and more bloom, I think.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

I'm resurrecting this thread because I think the rose shown is really Triomphe de Luxembourg since this looks so different from my RJG. I'm disappointed, this is the rose I would love to have, it has such a sumptuous look.

Ha. Ha. You and I were both seduced by Catspa's photos a couple of years ago, Ingrid! I was going to send this thread back to the top of the forum after reading your post, but then I saw that you had already retrieved it. I agree 100%. These really are some of the most scrumptious pink roses ever! My (former) Vintage Rhodologue hasn't produced blooms like Catspa's, but I keep checking when I visit my tea rose friend who now has the plant. I hope your question about the Rhodologue/Triomphe confusion generates input. Like you, I'd love to know what cultivar produces those blooms with that "sumptuous look"! Catspa's whole garden is paradise, but her Rhodologue must be one of the all time incredible teas! Or should I say "tease"? Carol

This post made me lust after R. Jules, but i'm glad someone is asking because I have it on order for next spring, but will change it if the rose in question is in fact triomphe!

Let's make it three/four who were seduced by that image. The blooms on my plant are okay, but nothing like Catspa's. Honestly, I do not expect them to look like hers as she has something special/good going on there and my plant is not mature. Nevertheless, there should be decent resemblance. The next time my RJG has blooms, I am going to take a more discerning look.

I can't imagine mine morphing into something that looks that splendid, even the color on this one is a cooler pink than my RJG. Strangely enough, not too many nurseries seem to stock Triomphe, which is much the superior rose if the one above is indeed Triomphe. It's frustrating that someone hasn't looked into this whole problem.

It's absolutely stunning! I'll keep my order for him then.. can't spring come already!!!!

To confuse matters, Rogue Valley Roses lists its version of this tea as RJG (T de L) and alternately as T de L (RJG)! The Vintage catalogue says RJG "...came to us as T de L, which it was not." The catalog also compares the blooms of RJG to La France.

Based on Ingid's photos and my RJG blooms, I apparently purchased from Vintage what Ingrid did from ARE. ARE only lists RJG in its inventory. The Vintage catalog also only lists RJG.

Apparently the T de L in commerce in Australia may not be the real deal (according to someone on HMF), and many posted T de L photos look like Ingid's/my rose while some resemble Catspa's. When I search HMF under RJG, I spot what looks like Catspa's rose plus several others that resemble it plus many that resemble Ingrid's and mine. Patricia Routly posted photos of an RJG, and she cites the provenance. It resembles Catspa's rose, and her note states that the rose "came as T de L." I wonder where Catspa got her RJG, and I wonder if it was labeled with a dual identity. I am so glad you raised this question, Ingid. The RJG/T de L tangle is really knotted!

Catspa just replied while I was typing! Catspa, mine came from Vintage, too, but it resembles Ingid's rose. Plus, mine had coral tones at first. Now I'm really confused! Mine isn't as old as yours, but.... Maybe Vintage sent the wrong rose? Mine REALLY does not look like yours after several years.

I wonder which nurseries have which rose? It sounds like RVR might have gotten one from Vintage since they are dual identifying?

Carol

I've begged a favor from a forum friend to see if he has time to upload photos of my 4-year-old Vintage Rhodologue Jules blooms. I've got to get all my technology upgraded soon!

If the photos show up, you'll see that my RJG petals have a dark reverse. I don't see that on Ingrid's blooms. To my eye it looks like Catspa's might have a darker reverse? Under HMF Triomphe de Lux comments, Daniel Hanna in Australia notes a darker reverse. The blooms on his Triomphe are quite full but not as globular as Catspa's. Maybe he really has Rhodologue if Vintage RJG ID is correct?

HMF states that Triomphe is thornless or almost thornless. On HMF Rhodologue photo section, Patricia Routley posted several cane/thorn photos of a rose she identifies as "possibly RJG." Patricia notes the plum/chocolate canes. Catspa's Vintage and my Vintage both appear to exhibit this characteristic. My younger plant less so than Catspa's. Carol

FWIW, there doesn't seem to have actually been a rose introduced as 'Rhodologue Jules Gravereaux'. There was a Soupert et Notting HT called 'Rosomane Gravereaux' (1899), a full, pink Tea from a Brazilian rosarian, Dr. Joaquin Fontes called- as far as I can tell- 'Rosomane Jules Gravereaux' (by 1908), a Pernetiana called 'Rhodophile Jules Gravereaux' (c.1900), and a Hybrid Perpetual from Croibier in 1908 called 'Commandeur Jules Gravereaux'.

Does anyone know where the 'Rhodologue' name came from? The Brazilian-raised Tea seems to have experienced a name change, but older references to this rose are not exactly plentiful...

Virginia

Vintage attributes RJG to Fontes, 1908, and states that "this is an early hybrid tea by parentage." The Old Rose Advisor also attributes RJG to "Dr. Fontes, 1908." This text notes that RJG is from Marie Van Houte (T) x Mme. Abel Chatenat (HT). The rose is described as "yellowish pink, medium size, very full, light scent, moderate height." That's interesting that this name was never registered, Virginia.

As far as I can tell, Dr. Fontes' rose was introduced as 'Rosomane Jules Gravereaux', and did not get much publicity. The name seems to have changed in the 1930's, thanks to the <i>Rosenlexicon</i>? Or perhaps earlier, but that's the earliest reference I see.

Of course, that rose is still drop-dead gorgeous, no matter what it was originally called... I don't quite know how the Vintage folks decided on 'RJG' as the correct ID for their purported 'Triomphe de Luxembourg'. Just looking at the references at HMF, I get the impression that this rose was not a commercial success, and I wonder that anyone thought this obscurity might have survived two world wars in Europe.

Virginia

It would be interesting to know if there is any collection of Brazilian-raised roses at public or private gardens in Brazil?

My rose definitely does not have those cool pink tones of catspa's rose and most certainly not the deep cupping and many, many petals. I wonder if one were to order TdL whether it would always be this beauty or whether some would be RJG. A few people would have to volunteer to buy both roses and raise them side by side and that way at least determine which nursery is selling these roses with the correct name, or at least the rose that most of us want, which is catpa's rose. Mine, by the way is well armed with thorns on the larger canes, while those that are pencil-thick or smaller have none or very few.

This is such an intersecting thread! I emailed Rogue Valley Roses today to inquire about the origin of its dual identified RJG/T de L.

Just an interesting note: Patricia Routley on HMF mentions that "rosomane" means "rose maniac". I tripped over her definition once while reading about Gloire des Rosomanes. Since a "rhodologue" is someone who specializes in rose culture, maybe an early 20th century authority in the rose world spontaneously decided the latter title would be a more flattering description of Jules than the former? :-)

I agree that "rhodologue" seems to be a more serious compliment than "rosomane"... From what I've seen, rhodologue is used to describe someone who is a learned expert in the history, botany and culture of roses. Not many rosomanes have that elevated status. I get the impression that the word was not used much (or at all?) before the 1890's.

It will be interesting to see if you hear back from RVR, and what they know about the situation.

Thanks,

Virginia

Hey, all! PortlandMysteryRose emailed me three pics -- which she can't seem to upload -- to share here. See below -- her RJG came from Vintage Gardens four years ago.

rhodo logue, noun. masc. Specialist roses and culture. The rhodologues, Rosomanes rose growers and (...) may be honoring a softer human passions (Farms and castle, vol. 1, 61 gm 1906 ds Quem. DDL t . 33, sv hybridizer).
Source: http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/rhodologue

So I guess the original "Rosomane" was changed to what was considered a sort of synonym, "Rhodologue".


:-)

~Christopher

Thank you so much for posting my photos, Christopher! I really appreciate your tech support. :-)

Ingrid, does my RJG look similar to yours in your opinion? You can see my rose does have a darker petal reverse, like Catspa's, in the open bloom shot. I hope my Vintage Gardens RJG will grow into Catspa's rose in four more years, but It has a long way to go.

Christopher, your research may indeed explain the rose's name change that Virginia discovered.

Carol

Well, for comparison, here are a couple of views of an RJG bloom with battered petals, as it is today, after a weekend with 1.75" of rain or so, and weary leaves, at the end of summer. The first is this morning, still in bud; the second this evening, somewhat opened. Note that the tones of pink in the photos look different, depending on the time of the day: cool morning light versus warm fall evening light (spring photos all taken in morning). I would say that only the outer petals have dark reverses. The stems are chocolate-colored in spring. The bases of the petals at this time have a bit of cream-ish tinge, but no yellow, nor have I ever seen yellow here. Very interesting about that name change and looking forward to more info on all of this, if it can be found.

The tendency of rose leaves to develop brown edges in my soils and other conditions seems to depend very much on the variety. RJG always does this, as do 'Reve d'Or' and 'Mrs. Herbert Stevens' in other parts of the garden. None of the other roses planted around RJG gets these browned edges -- 'Mrs. B.R.Cant', 'Mme. Bravy', 'Felicia', and 'Niles Cochet' all have lovely, clean leaves without brown edges, even now, though in the same patch of ground, so what leads to this particular susceptibility in my conditions is unknown to me.

This morning:

Same bud, this evening:

Another angle, this evening:

Carol, I think I could see your RJG rose becoming like this one in spring, with age. I just planted a 2nd year 'Mme Antoine Mari' in the ground and its few-petaled, amorphous blooms are a far cry from the elegant ones on the mature MAM I lost. I figure she will get there, eventually.

Thank you, Catspa! It will be interesting to see if others join in with photos for comparison and info on the origins of their plants. Even though our plants both came from Vintage, mine doesn't exhibit the globular blooms that yours does. My blooms are decidedly dish-shaped. Also, when I first received my RJG, the color was coral-ish/salmon-tinted pink. Now it is consistently pure pink. Change due to age of plant and some kind of weather effect? I appreciate your hopeful encouragement! I hope mine lives up to yours. :-) That's puzzling about the brown edges on your foliage. Garden roses are genetically complex little buggers. Your RJG is beyond gorgeous, by the way! Carol

Reading through old French references, as I often do, almost everyone is called a rosomane... someone with a passion for roses. Only a very few (such as Crépin, the botanist) also get called rhodologue. It seems to have denoted someone who had made a serious study of roses, and was considered an expert in the [rose] field. The Greek suffix -logia meaning "the study of".

Carol, I also hope your rose grows up to look like catspa's. That's one fine-looking flower.

Virginia

Ah, such a glorious rose! My RJG didn't make it last winter and I have since ordered TdL from A Reverence for Roses. Looking forward to it growing large.

Thank you, Virginia! Me, too. :-)

Anne, if you get a chance as your plant matures, please do post photos for comparison. Do you know the origin of Rev for Roses' T de L?

Carol

My RJG came from ARE. It will likely have blooms again in 2-3 weeks. While I did not pay a lot of attention to the blooms, my recollection is of a petal count higher than what I see in Carol's images and less than Catspa's. There was a darker reverse but more subtle. I am optimistic that as time progresses, it will mature more toward what I envision or have seen.

Carol, I believe your RJG looks like mine. It's difficult to judge with the half-open flowers but the fully open bloom looks very much like mine. I'm afraid we've been cheated!

Even in the morning shade my rose doesn't have the cool pink color of catpa's once it's open although the buds do. Hers have swirled petals, which you can see especially well in the 2012 spring pictures, which mine definitely don't. However, I probably shouldn't say anything definitively until I can also look at my rose next spring, in case the time of the year makes a difference. catspa, if you could possibly take another picture of the same rose when it's fully open, from several different angles that would be very helpful.

Okay! Here you are, "ye of little faith" ;-) I rummaged around and found the bloom below on my RJG a few minutes ago (the bloom I last showed was disintegrating and not going to open any more than it had, being hemmed in by the buds around it and beat up by last weekend's wet weather). Note that it is not much different from yours (a few more petals, perhaps) and, I should note, this one does have darker reverses on all petals. I would predict, next spring, or perhaps a few more springs from now, you will see blooms on yours like those in my original photos (she does that every year, here, reliably), if all goes well. It is typical for teas to have more sumptuous blooms in spring, from what I see. The diameter of this bloom is 4.5".

For fun, here's the same bloom as in my last post, but in its "closed for the night" mode early this morning. A bit of a different "look".

I took pictures this morning which didn't turn out very well so tried again a little while ago. The blooms are less than 3 inches across. The temperature today was 97 degrees and the humidity is 4%.