Hi andreajp: It depends on your soil. If you have sandy or loamy soil that tender roots can expand, that's great. If you have heavy clay like mine, own-roots are wimpy, unless grown in fluffy potting soil first.

Someone in a sandy soil reported Jude doing great as own-root, another person in alkaline clay reported giving only 3 blooms for the first year.

I bought Austin Eglantyne as own-root without knowing that it has Rugosa heritage (Rugosa hates alkaline clay). It gave me 2 blooms the first year as gallon-size. Then I fixed my clay with coarse sand, it's doing much better 2nd year.

People root rose-cuttings either with sand, or composted pine fines ...that stuff is good for own-root. Check out the picture of a rose grown from seed in my thread "Your good tips ... and the payoffs".

Hi Strawberryhill,

I hear what you say about the roses lacking vigor for the first year in clay soil, which I have, but what about over the long term? Do they remain small and stunted?

What about amending the planting hole and continued feeding of the soil with compost? Does that help the own root roses?

Hi andreajp: The rose park 15 minutes from me, also has alkaline clay. Their Jude is grafted on Dr. Huey, bloomed like mad the 1st year, really cute, 2 feet tall. The second year we have a drought, the park watered with tap water.

Their GRAFTED Jude on alkaline tap water (pH 8), instead of rain water (pH 5.6) became a monster, 7 feet tall, only one bloom. I would need a ladder to sniff that bloom. Lime in tap water drives down both phosphorus and potassium (necessary for blooms) .... so instead of blooming Jude became tall.

That's zone 5a climate, where some roses die back to the crown in the winter. Grafted Jude would be BIG in a warm climate.

Never underestimate own-root if given good soil and nutrients. I have an own-root Wise Portia which I failed in my experiment of watering with used grapefruit rinds. It went from a big bush last year to a 2 inches black stick in June. I thought I killed it for sure.

I gave it horse manure, now it regained its size, plus many basal breaks. The best way to amend clay is to make it even better than what roses root best in: sand or composted pine fines. I would layer either COARSE sand, or composted pine fines to the hole to improve clay.

Predfern (PhD. in Physical Chemistry) in my Chicagoland uses 1/2 potting soil with his native soil. I layered potting soil with my clay, rather than mixing in. Layering works best with clay, so you don't make potteries in hot sun.

I would put compost and horse manure ON TOP for your climate. My climate is just the opposite, I put horse manure at the bottom for drainage ... since nothing decompose on top in -20 degree winter and wet climate.

I have to fix the bottom of the hole since we have to plant very deep for winter survival. You have it easier ... just plant at ground level, then layer the good stuff on top, be it horse manure, compost, or mulch.

For warm climate, own-root is best in the long-run. For my cold climate, own-root takes extra care at first, but it's cuter in the long run. My William Shakespeare 2000 own-root is a cutie, 1' x 1' , perfect round-bush. I saw some pics. of its grafted, and I don't want that messy Dr.Huey style.

I'm paranoid that if my house is for sale, Dr. Huey would take over and make my garden a "dawn-of-the-living-dead" horror movie. He is 8' x 8' non-blooming fool in fore- closured house, a public eyesore. My zone 5a is too cold for Dr. Huey to bloom, so he's a green and bare monster.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, May 8, 13 at 13:09

Own-roots are best in partial shade, morning sun ... until they become 2-gallon root-ball. I had 20+ own-roots in pots last year. They refused to grow in full-sun, until I moved them to 4-hours of morning sun only.

This year I have 16 own-roots in pots. I put 3 in full sun, and the rest in partial shade. The ones in full sun haven't grown much, but the ones in partial shade grew fast.

I got Pink Peace as one gallon own-root. For the first 3-months every single bloom was fried in full sun. Same with Mirandy and Crimson glory. When the roots are so tiny, they fry in full-sun. Jude the Obscure is listed as a partial shade rose.

Jude is one of my favorite roses. I hesitate to chime in as my weather is quite different...but here goes.
I bought this rose as an own-root band 4 years ago. The first year it did poke along. Now it is about 3 1/2' tall by 3 1/2 feet wide. It's in partial shade no sun in late afternoon. Right now it is covered with buds. It's also relatively disease free. Finally no spray and no commercial fertilizer. Horse poops only.
I trim it back by about 10% after the spring flush.
Good luck with yours.
Jeannie

Strawberryhill, I must disagree with you about own-root roses in pots doing best in less sun. I will agree that if you get bands that are clearly barely rooted, the decreased rate of moisture loss found in shadier spots will help them along, and I have moved a couple of bands which seemed to need time to catch-up to the rest before growing in full-sun.

But by far the majority of mine have done quite well in full-sun from the start -- the six I kept in 2-gallon liners from last April are big and healthy. "Darlow's Enigma" grew to be 3' tall and 4' wide, and 'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' is even larger. The others aren't as tall and wide, but have lots of big healthy canes.

Perhaps what you describe is very specific to your conditions and your potting mix, and if that's what's working for you, keep doing it. Perhaps your bands were potted later in the season, having to cope immediately with higher temperatures than mine did. Perhaps Spring here has enough overcast rainy days to get the new bands accustomed to the full-sun faster, but they're fine through Summer. Maybe we grow totally different varieties. Maybe your bands came "younger" than mine.

But it has no validity with how things are growing here for me, with bands potted up and out in full-sun since the second week of April. Mine have certainly grown well in full-sun, and even my first order from Heirloom Roses received a month ago are shooting lots of new growth. So I don't think it's accurate to say that they all do better in part shade while growing-on, or that those in pots in full-sun won't grow fast.

:-)

~Christopher

First shipment, from Heirloom Roses, along with my six from last year (second week of April):
{{gwi:248773}}

After the bulk of my orders came in (20 more to go):
{{gwi:260925}}

"Darlow's Enigma" from last year, showing just under 4 months' growth from receiving it as a band, grown in full-sun (pic taken in shade to avoid glare):
{{gwi:260926}}

'Souvenir de Victor Landeau', also from last summer, also just under 4 months after receiving as a band and grown-on in full-sun (the spot by the garage is in shade only until 10am, getting full-sun until about an hour before sunset):
{{gwi:227748}}

{{gwi:227746}}

'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' as it begins leafing out last month (I've since pegged-down that one tall cane, and it's sprouting flower buds all along its length, just like the other canes which "pegged themselves" last year):
{{gwi:248772}}

Hi Christopher: You are right on all points ... our spring is very short. We go from snow and hail second week of April to 81 degrees today (May 8). Last year it was 80's mid-March.

I used to live in CT, and it was milder spring & summer ... I never had to water in CT. CT never gets 90 to 100 degrees temp. like Chicagoland. The sun here is more intense than MI, where I grew up, and much more intense than CT. The sun here is just as hot as CA.

My own-roots are tiny bands from Burlington Roses in CA, plus some home-rooted ones. The gallon-size ones from Roses Unlimited in SC, I planted right into the ground, full-sun, no problems!!

For folks with heavy clay, large-size particles amendments is best, like coarse sand, or compost (just double-checked with University Extension). Peat moss and alfalfa meal is NO-NO for heavy clay, I learned the hard way.

I learned a trick that if I spread garden sulfur on the surface of clay in advance, let the rain wash that for a few months, it breaks up clay pretty well. I found that out when I dug up 2 dead rhododrendrons, and 2 dead azaleas from my putting too much sulfur on top .... the soil under is really fluffy & loose.

This is really helpful information on so many levels!! Thank you so much.

Pine bark fines, this is "soil amendment," correct? Not the small pine bark mulch?

Hi Andreajp: I couldn't find "pine bark fines", so I used small pine mulch last year when I planted my roses in the ground. Didn't hurt any of them .. they bloomed well. Pine mulch breaks down VERY SLOWLY, so it doesn't hurt.

But the holes with peat moss and alfalfa meal DID BAD .. roses got choked in an acidic bog, they turned yellow and could not grow. These fine particles break down fast, release acid that hurt the roots.

I'm impressed with the pics. that Christopher posted, he got very healthy roses from Heirloom roses. My 11 bands from Burlington roses are tiny this year, like 3" tall. I don't blame Burling ... tap water in CA is alkaline, roses don't root well.

I rooted cuttings in the garage through the winter, they did great with snow heaped on top. They did great through our spring rain. Rain water is acidic at pH 5.6, which helps roses to root. Recently I watered with my tap water, pH 8, and rootings shrank in size.

Here in Chicagoland, I sprouted broccoli seeds and they took forever to sprout with my alkaline tap water. My Mom in MI with neutral water sprouted beansprouts easily.

I bought "citric acid" sold in the health food store for sprouting, and watered my pots, so roses don't shrink with my well water high in lime. Others put vinegar in water.

The advantage of putting own-roots in pots, in the shade ... is you don't have to water them constantly in full-sun, and shrink the roots with alkaline tap water.

CA doesn't have much rainfall like my zone 5a, so it helps to have own-roots in shade at first, until they become establish. Average CA rainfall is 14" versus my 49" that summer when I put gallon-sized roses in hard clay & full sun. The east coast has even higher rainfall.

I have a dry spot near the tree where I planted a Knock-out grafted on Dr. Huey, and I never watered it either. For such dry spots, I'll go with Grafted. My plan is to stick Dr. Huey deep into the alkaline clay, but amend the top 6" with good soil so it'll grow own-root.

Dr. Huey can handle full-sun, but own-roots, esp. the ones with many petals like Jude the Obscure, bloom better in partial shade & constant moisture.

If you have alkaline clay, it takes garden sulfur 6 months for it to be watered down and soften the soil. When pine bark is soaked in water, the pH goes from 4.5 down to 3.45, as reported in the Fig Forum. That's why the composted pine fines potting soil has lime added to neutralize the acid.

My clay pH is 7.7, so fresh pine mulch mixed in is great ... When it slowly decomposes, it releases acid to balance my alkaline tap water. However, in my last house with acidic clay, I pile up pine mulch around roses. With our constant rain it created an acid bath ... roses were stunt and diseased.

It's best to check your soil pH before adding amendments. Below is the link to the procedure I wrote for the English Roses forum to test your soil pH using red cabbage juice.

I saw a pic. of Grafted Wise Portia looking good in full sun CA. Jude the Obscure as GRAFTED bloomed well at the rose park in full sun above 80+. Below is a picture of Austin Wise Portia fried as own-root in partial shade, 4 hours of hot Chicagoland sun, at 80+ degrees.

It depends on the spot: full sun and dry ... grafted on Dr. Huey is best. Partial shade & fluffly soil and moist: own-root is best long-term.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cheapest way to test soil pH using red cabbage

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, May 9, 13 at 9:45

Andrea

I think usually the best advice on growing roses comes from the people in your area. They will have already experienced what you are considering for many of the roses.

I am in SoCal, but there are a lot of people from NorCal on the forum. The historic cemetery in Sac has a big variety of older roses, but a stroll through the gardens might give you some ideas of roses that are growing happily in the area.

Before you order grafted or own root, wait til you hear from some one here.

I agree with Kippy 100%. Things vary even 1/2 hour away, like Predfern in my area reported his own-root Jude is 3 ' x 3', and blooms well. He grows Rugosas, which prefers sandy soil. Rugosa is known as "beach rose".

Wimpy own-roots like Jude is best in sandy or loamy, rather than heavy clay. I have a hard time with Nahema, came as a gallon from Roses Unlimited, very bare, and it stays that way for 1 year. Others complain that Nahema is a shy-bloomer. Jude has a reputation as shy-bloomer, and would be easier grafted.

Austin Eglantyne has a stingy reputation, best grafted. I thought Eglantyne hates my alkaline clay, until I checked with Paul in CT, who reported Eglantyne is stingy there as own-root. Compare that to Krista in NY who got Eglantyne GRAFTED, with 80+ blooms per flush.

I wondered about Jude as own-root, last year I rooted Jude to test, big disappointment! Other rootings I did stayed clean and rooted well, except for Jude ... He barely rooted, and broke out in BS with our constant fall rain. That confirmed my decision to buy Jude as grafted, just need to prune him hard.

Note: I root cuttings to test their ability as own-roots & disease-resistant & winter-survival, then I throw them away at the end.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, May 9, 13 at 13:42

I double-checked on Jude as own-root, and found this quote from a person in Maryland:

"In my garden, Jude the Obscure smells wonderful, but it is almost a once bloomer for me. I've counted this year and after the great spring flush I've gotten 3 blooms. It is 6 years own root and the repeat has always been poor. "

I was pondering this rose yesterday and although I have very limited space in my garden, I think the only way I will really know whether or not to plant this rose bare root or own root is to plant both and see what happens.

I know where to buy this rose in its own root form. Should I buy the bare root form from David Austin? Is there a better option?

My own root Jude is healthy, even somewhat BS resistant here but it is a stingy bloomer. I have so few Austins-- they get BS terribly here-- that I cannot give it up.
Even tho I'm growing it in a pot, I decided to prune it back hard to see if I would get more blooms. This will probably backfire--but I had to try it.

Barbara is on the right track of pruning it back hard. The bigger the root is compared to the top growth, the more water and nutrients extracted.

Jude is a deep-cupped bloom, like Sonia Rykiel, both are water-hogs and demand potassium & phosphorus for those huge blooms. I mixed my native clay (rich in calcium) with potting soil, plus alfalfa meal, plus watering with soluble fertilizer ... Sonia Rykiel gave 15+ blooms as a gallon-size own-root in a dinky pot for the first month. Then she became stingy when I put acid nitrogen fertilizer to fix her pale leaves in the ground.

Potassium, calcium, and phosphorus give the biggest root growth, thus more blooms. Someone reported solving a stingy Austin with soluble fertilizer, another person reported success giving tomato fertilizer high in potassium and phosphorus.

If Jude is on sale own-root, I'll get him just to do experiment. For instant gratification like tons of blooms the 1st year, grafted is best ... Regan Nursery in Fremont, CA has Jude as grafted.

Here is a link that might be useful: Jude the Obscure as grafted at Regan

I have Jude own root from Chamblee's, after 3yrs, it is approx. 4x4 and loaded with buds. I guess it forms a kind of vase shaped plant? In full sun from noon till dusk. Hardly any winter damage and very little disease here in BS central. It just keeps getting better and better! My soil is clay amended with well composted manure (I live on a thoroughbred farm so its free! all you can take!) and in the heat of full summer some blooms do fry. But overall it does just great here own root

I dream of my roses becoming HUGE! Is this a silly newbie dream? My backyard has this awful gray wooden fence that was put in by my neighbor. She has asked that I not grow anything on it because vines cause the fence to rot. She's very attached to her ugly fence. I have dreams of painting it white and having huge roses to block the view of it as much as I can. I think I will not be able to paint the beloved fence. I think I will only be able to grow roses in front of it.

This may all be more than anyone wants to know...

Nanadoll's Jude the Obscure is what inspired me to think that I may be able to have one large enough to block my fence. My thinking was that surely, here in California, the rose would grow to such a size! David Austin's website lists Jude for hot climates.

I know my grandmother's hat will block the fence. I thought Jude's apricot color would be a nice compliment to her.

I was hoping for longevity though. Do grafted roses have an expiration date?

I think you could grow a huge Jude in hot Sacramento. The "fence" my rose grows in front of (Jude needs no support) is actually a 9 or so foot tall wall with a three foot adobe base. I think the wall, giving off reflected sun, and acting as a heat sink in winter, has helped this rose to grow large. My only worry would be that in Sacramento things might get too hot for a rose growing in front of a fence. I don't think grafted roses necessarily have an expiration date, but that's just my opinion. I've never worried about it--there are too many other things to worry about! Diane

Hi Diane: I'm very impressed with your Jude ... so healthy and tons of blooms in your alkaline clay. I have alkaline clay too, and roses grafted on Dr. Huey are awesome bloomers at the rose park, 15 minutes from me.

My neighbor put a row of hybrid teas grafted on Dr. Huey, our soil is limestone clay, pH 7.7. He was cutting them for the vase everyday, dark green leaves, 100% clean, non-stop blooming. But only for 1st year, our zone 5a winter killed them.

Hi Andreajp: Per your question of "Do grafted rose have an expiration date?" It depends on your soil/climate. In my zone 5a wet clay, grafted isn't best due to:

1) My neighbor planted his grafted hybrid teas at ground level, our -20 F winter zapped the bud union.

2) I buried a grafted hybrid tea at 4" below ground level. Dr. Huey doesn't like my wet clay, and declined. My hybrid tea went from 100% clean in the pot, to BS like crazy in that wet clay (mulched with leaves).

Knock-outs in that wet bed lost their Dr. Huey's roots completely (these were planted 6" below ground). Knock-outs planted at ground level elsewhere retained their Dr. Huey.

3) The lifespan of Dr. Huey in my cold zone 5a is very short, the rose park replaces their HT's beds constantly.. the only ones that stay long are hardy Austin roses. Niels in Denmark, zone 5b, made the same observation that grafted doesn't last long, except for Peace hybrid tea.

I checked in HMF and found Peace have thousands of descendants. Lots of descendants mean it can be grown easily from seeds, and root easily. Jude the Obscure has only 1 descendant, hard to root.

Kim Rupert (Roseseek) in a dry and hot climate report that grafted on Dr. Huey lasts very long, like 80 years. In our cold and wet limestone clay, Dr. Huey lasts 2 years max if buried too deep. Everything decomposes fast in my limestone clay, lime is used in the old days to corrode corpses.

Kim has shale clay, where imprints of ancient fossils are preserved ... he reported that nothing decomposes buried in his dry clay.