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bill_in_nc

Oil Changes (Here we go again)

bill_in_nc
16 years ago

Some of this information is applicable to us LT and GT owners.

DETROIT (AP) -- Most major automakers agree: The adage that you should change your car's oil every 3,000 miles is outdated, and even 5,000 miles may be too often. Ford Motor Co. became the latest manufacturer to extend its oil life guidelines, making public that it is raising the recommended oil change interval from 5,000 miles to 7,500 on its newly redesigned 2007 models and all subsequent redesigned or new models.

"From an environmental perspective we can save an enormous amount of oil," Lord said. "There's no point in wasting precious oil changing it prematurely. And we don't have to dispose of so much waste oil, either."

Ford, like many other manufacturers, said Tuesday that higher oil quality standards and new engine designs were responsible for the change, which affects vehicles driven under normal conditions.

"The oils have advanced a lot since the days when 3,000 miles were the typical oil drains," said Dennis Bachelder, senior engineer for the American Petroleum Institute, an industry organization that sets quality standards. "They're certainly more robust than the oils of 10, 15 years ago."

These days, motor oils start with a higher-quality base oil than in the past, and they have more antioxidants that make lubricating properties last longer and other additives that keep deposits from forming on engines, Bachelder said.

Pete Misangyi, Ford's supervisor of fuel lubricants, said the company conducted numerous fleet and laboratory tests with newer oils before it raised the interval.

"That allows more comfort, if you will, in extending the intervals using the new oils," he said.

Some manufacturers, such as Honda Motor Co. and General Motors Corp., have stopped making recommendations on all or most of their models, instead relying on sensors that measure oil temperature extremes and engine revolutions over time to calculate oil life and tell drivers when to get the lubricant changed. Oil can lose its lubricating properties if it runs at too low or too high of a temperature.

Peter Lord, executive director of GM's service operations, said oil can last 12,000 miles or even more for many drivers who don't run their vehicles in extreme heat or cold or tow heavy loads.

"It really does depend on the individual customer and how they've used the vehicle," he said.

Ford said it has found that its customers like a set mileage for service rather than wait for a sensor to tell them what to do.

For those who don't believe the sensors, Lord says GM has reams of data showing that they're reliable, and they notify drivers far in advance of when a change is necessary.

"We are absolutely confident of the technology. We back it with a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty now, so there's no doubt in our mind that this technology works," he said.

The longer oil life can save customers money. Ford estimates that drivers would save $600 over a five-year period by going from 5,000 miles to 7,500 between oil changes.

Toyota Motor Corp. (and they can do no wrong) reduced its change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 in 2004 in part because it found that more drivers ran their vehicles under severe stop-and-start and short trip conditions that cause oil to deteriorate more quickly, said company spokesman Bill Kwong.

Toyota also had an oil sludge buildup problem on less than 1 percent of its 1997-2002 model year vehicles, Kwong said. Changing the oil more frequently prevents the sludge problem, which he said was caused by owners going more than 7,500 miles before changing oil.

The company lengthened warranty coverage on the affected engines to handle the problem, even before some owners filed a class action lawsuit, Kwong said.

Nissan Motor Co. recommends changing oil in its Nissan and Infiniti vehicles every 7,500 miles or six months -- unless the vehicle is used mainly for towing, trips of five miles or less in normal temperatures, 10 miles or less in freezing temperatures, stop-and-go driving in hot weather or low-speed driving for long distances, in which the oil should be changed every 3,750 miles or three months, spokeswoman Katherine Zachary said.

And for some engineers and mechanics, 5,000 miles is too long to wait.

Drivers must take the weather and how much freeway driving they do into account before deciding when to change their oil, said Danny Beiler, part owner of an auto repair garage in Sarasota, Fla.

Freeway driving is less harmful to oil than driving in the city, but in Sarasota, the heat places nearly all cars under severe driving conditions that warrant more frequent changes, Beiler said.

"I have a problem with telling people 7,000 because you know they're going to go over that. I'd rather err on the side of being cautious and tell them to do it early."

Dewey Szemenyei, marketing manager for passenger car motor oil additives for Afton Chemical Corp., said he still changes the oil in his 1998 Toyota Sienna minivan every 3,000 miles.

"I really feel it's great insurance," said Szemenyei, whose company makes additives that go into motor oils and who chairs a Society of Automotive Engineers committee on engine lubrication.

"There's not what I consider a right answer. However, if you go with the owner's manual recommendation you should in general not have any problems," he said. (You know how we LT and GT owners are addicted to following the owner's manual, except when we know better.)

American Petroleum Institute: http://www.api.org

Society of Automotive Engineers: http://www.sae.org

Comments (12)

  • castoff
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    All of the information contained in the press report pertains to automobiles and NOT outdoor power equipment. No OPE currently in production has any of the sensors mentioned in the article and, of course, lawn,yard and garden tractors are not equipped with odometers.

    The only instrument that remotely gives us a clue about oil change intervals is an hour meter but even it is not really accurate because all of them are electric and not mechanical.

    My old Case 530 utility tractor was fitted with a mechanical tachometer that included an hour meter in the same way that the old mechanical speedometers contained an odometer to record mileage. A mechanical hourmeter takes into account engine speed. An electronic hourmeter does not. Wear and tear on an engine has a lot to do with the number of feet per second that the piston/s travel and an electronic tach makes no such differentation.

    Another thing that I disagree with is the notion about these extended oil changes somehow saving immense amounts of oil. ALL oil is fully recyclable. Oil does not loose it's lubricating ability, it just becomes contaminated.

    The bulk of the engines being installed in the current offering of lawn, garden and yard tractors are pressure lubricated and have oil filters on them. For these engines, slightly extended oil changes might not bring any harm but let's keep in mind that most of these engines are still cooled by airflow and by the oil squirting around inside them. The number of liquid-cooled engines is fortunately in the minority.

    No one should read that article and come away thinking that OPE engines without filters and pressure lubrication (splash-lubed) should have their oil change frequency extended. Those engines rely on timely oil changes in order to remove contamination, sludge, particulate, metal filings, moisture etc. from the interior of the engine. Changing the oil in these engines every 25 to 50 hours max is one of the major keys to achieving decent engine life.

    Automobiles take four to six quarts of oil in an oil/filter change but an OPE engine takes only one to three quarts. Replacement twins in the 16 hp range and up cost one to three thousand dollars depending upon make, spec, orientation and hp. The rest of you can do whatever you wish with the info in that article but I am not going to risk any of my engines over something as insignificant as the price of a quart of oil.

  • grasswhacker
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you look at the ads in the Sunday paper, you can buy a case of name brand oil from stores like pep boys for about $1 a quart with a rebate. Cost is not a factor, so I always change the oil and filter at the end of the mowing season as I winterize my equipment. It might be alittle overkill, but it provides peace of mind.

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  • bill_in_nc
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mr. Grasswhacker, I think that is a very wise thing to do. Get that acid out of there. However, if you change it three times over the year and you did not put over 100 hours on it during that year, then I would argue that you have probably wasted some of the Lord's resources. It is said the oil is recyclable, which is true, but it takes resources to do that too. Some interesting statistics from: http://www.purdue.edu/dp/envirosoft/housewaste/src/oilfact.htm
    Since 1000 AD, world population has tripled, while fossil fuel use has grown tenfold.
    Americans throw away enough used motor oil every year to fill 120 supertankers.
    Used oil from a single oil change (approx. one gallon) can ruin a million gallons of fresh water - a year's supply for 50 people.
    Used oil is insoluble, persistent, slow to degrade, sticks to everything from beach sand to bird feathers, and can contain toxic chemicals and heavy metals that pose a health threat to humans, plants, and animals.
    An estimated 200 million gallons of used motor oil is improperly disposed of each year in the U.S. by being dumped on the ground, tossed in the trash (ending up in landfills), and poured down storm sewers and drains.
    Recycling used oil would save the U.S. 1.3 million barrels of oil per day.
    The world's largest waste oil processing plant is located in East Chicago, Indiana. The facility is to recycle 75 million gallons per year of crankcase and industrial oil and 20 million gallons per year of oily waste water.
    One gallon of used oil provides the same 2.5 quarts of high quality lubricating oil as 42 gallons of crude oil.

  • grasswhacker
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow! Lots of interesting facts. I use my lawn tractor about 50 - 60 hours a season, so once a year changes are all I need. It would be interesting to know how oil recycling plants can restore that dirty, smelly mess into a clean, useable product.

  • metal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The company I used to work for used recycled oil as an additive (extender) for asphalt used on roads. It had great properties and saved us a lot of money.

  • kubotabx2200
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I only have to change the oil and filter once every 200 hours on my Kubota.

  • runny214
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "A mechanical hourmeter takes into account engine speed. An electronic hourmeter does not."
    This was posted by castoff.
    Does this mean an hour on a mechanical hourmeter may or may not be 60 minutes?
    Your explanation doesn't make sense.
    An hour is an hour no matter what the engine RPM is.

  • castoff
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Posted by runny214 (My Page) on Mon, May 21, 07 at 17:37

    "A mechanical hourmeter takes into account engine speed. An electronic hourmeter does not."
    This was posted by castoff.
    Does this mean an hour on a mechanical hourmeter may or may not be 60 minutes?
    Your explanation doesn't make sense.
    An hour is an hour no matter what the engine RPM is.
    ***********************************************************

    While it is true that an hour is an hour regardless of engine RPM, you obviously missed the point. Without getting into all the math regarding piston travel, I will keep it simple.

    We both agree that an hour consists of 60 minutes and that engine RPM means revolutions per minute. So, if an engine runs at an idle (650 rpm) for a full hour, did it get more wear or less wear on it than it did the next day when it was asked to run at 3600 RPM continuously for a full hour while cutting grass?

    The electric hourmeter will still tell you that the engine ran two hours but the mechanical hourmeter will record a different number due to spinning at the true engine speed. I have never inquired as to hour many revolutions of the crankshaft must take place to register one engine hour on the mechanical hourmeter but I am sure that the engineers all had a standard that they worked to when choosing the gearing for the tach and integrated hourmeter.

    Some tachs were driven off of the distributor while others were drive off the rear of the generator. You remember generators don't you? We used them back in the day before alternators started showing up.

    The purpose of any hourmeter is to provide some sort of insight as to how much wear an engine has. Modern "drive by wire" diesel engines have engine computers that record the amount of time an engine has been at idle as well as the total amount of hours of run time. Anyone thinking about buying a heavy truck would want to know those stats along with the mileage showing on the odometer.

    Suppose for a minute that you saw a road tractor for sale and it had very low mileage on it. What may not be revealed to you is that this tractor was once equipped with a very large folding crane behind the cab. It simply travelled to the jobsite pulling a trailer load of material (short distances) and then spent the better part of the day unloading and placing the material.

    In other words, that honkin' big 15 litre Cat diesel may be in urgent need of a ten thousand dollar in-frame rebuild inspite of the fact that the truck has only gone 50,000 miles.

    When it comes to outdoor power equipment (OPE), generators come to mind because these must run at wide open throttle continuously while in use in order to deliver the voltage and amperage. That means 3600 RPM in most cases, hour after hour after hour.

    In comparison, a water transfer pump might not be asked to run at full throttle because the person operating it might not want that many gallons per minute to be delivered at the end of the hose. So, it might run at only 1800 RPM or half that of the generator. If both items were on the same sight and ran for a full 24 hours, then the genset engine would have double the wear and tear on it that the pump got even though an hour is an hour.

    A mechanical hourmeter would balance this out whereas an electric hourmeter cannot.

    Now, does it make sense?

  • w3nzl
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    During the war when motor oil was a little scarce, my dad
    would drain the oil in the old Plymouth and let it settle out
    between O/Cs.. Come time to chg oil again, (1K miles
    in those days) he'd pour off the top 3-4 qts of clean oil,
    add a qt or 2 of fresh oil, chg the oil, and start the
    process over again.. I doubt that the old '39 Plymouth ever
    knew the difference... Guess thats one way of doing
    the recycle thing...
    After the war we got our first power mower, a big old reel
    mower with a cast Iron lever start B&S engine on top of it,
    Dad used to chg the oil in it after every season, that
    mower was in service for many years, an I still have that
    engine, an it still runs like a fine watch... Got my first
    house, yard, and power mower in '59, and followed dad's
    practice of chging the oil at the end of every season..
    Bought this place in '68, an a GT to mow it with.. Again
    I have changed the oil at the end of the mowing season
    every year for almost 40 yrs now, and it still works
    just fine too... Bought an almost new ZTR last fall, an
    I have already put it on the same program, an I fully
    expect its Honda twin will be perfectly happy with it...
    The bottom line is that, if like most of us, U use Ur
    mower 30-50 hrs a year, a once a year O/C before retiring
    it for the winter will keep it happy... I've just offered
    U 60 yrs of proof to that effect... Works for me!!!
    Paul R...

  • pgtr
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    3000 miles is not only old - it's ancient and largely something created by the quick oil change industry in recent decades. FACT: Check your old automobile owner's manual from the late 60s or early 70s. 5000 miles was commonly recommended 40 years ago! Maybe even 7500...?

    Both hour meters and odometers are simple estimators for a basic single variable oil change 'algorithm'.

    Modern cars don't have oil change sensors per se - they basically have more sophisticated 'algorithms' based on more than a single variable: data largely already available to the onboard engine computer - that is hours, rpms, time, load (mpg), etc... through fairly exhaustive studies they've figured out how conservative the old mileage (or hour?) approach was and modified the algorithm to more accurately estimate when to change oil through monitoring more inputs. 7500 is practically now considered a minimum and most oil change algorithms go a fair bit further.

    In the automotive world I suspect a LOT of good oil w/ plenty of life left in it is discarded much to the pleasure of the quickee oil change industry, lubrance manufacturers and overzelous owners convinced they are doing right by their company.

    True lubricant related engine failures in automobiles is truly a very very rare thing.

    I'd say it's a little more common in the outdoor power area for a variety of reasons. End of season for most average homeowners works quite well.

  • mownie
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The company I work for has fleet of I/C powered forklifts. In 1989 & '90, we switched from diesel engines to LPG fueled engines (which are gasoline engines converted to propane). A few years later, the company selected a "test group" of forklifts to run in an extended oil change evaluation. The test was conducted in alliance with an "oil testing laboratory". The lab had to agree to use the same test procedure on "our" oil samples for the duration of the test. We did not know how long we would be testing. Our previous oil change interval was "Every 750 hours" (using the OEM hourmeter). This interval was in place when we ran diesel and gasoline powered I/C 'lifts. We wanted to determine how long we could safely run the oil between changes without harming the engine. The guidelines for the test were pretty simple on our part, the forklifts in the test group would not have their oil changed "Until further notice". Instead, we were only to "top off" the oil level when we drew an oil sample for the lab every 750 hours. Our 'lifts operate 24/7 with an average daily run time of 18 hours per 'lift, so we were pulling an oil sample about every 6 weeks (where this would have been an "oil change" prior to the test). The lab reported the test results of each sample to our corporate headqurters. Corporate only told us whether or not, to continue the testing of each 'lift, based on the report. At about 20 months into the test, we submitted a sample to the lab that had 10,000 (ten thousand) hours on it. Corporate headqurters informed us at that time to remove that 'lift from the test and change the oil based on the lab report that the oil "was degrading" and it's continued use was not recommended. We were instructed place the unit on a "tentative" 3000 hour oil change interval until the testing was ended on all 'lifts. By 24 months since the onset of the test, the oil in all the 'lifts had reached the 10,000 hour mark. The lab reports on a 10,000 hour old sample was very near the same for all 'lifts. The company ordered each 'lift that was part of the test to be placed on the same "tentative" 3000 hour oil change interval until further notice. It took the company almost a year from the end date of the testing to make all the changes to the inspection forms (for our PMs) and put the new standard of 3000 hours between oil and filter changes into effect. Our 'lifts remain in service at the "large distribution centers" for about 6 years (from the "new vehicle in service" date) at which time they will have accumulated from about 30,000 to 36,000 hours. At that time they are transferred out to "small town" locations where they may only get 2 to 4 hours run time per day. On these 'lifts we change the oil annually by the calender instead of going by the hourmeter. When a 'lift reaches 12 years old, it is sold on the public market. We have yet to "wear out" an engine. In fact, the only engine failure our location has had was due to the forklift operator continuing to run the 'lift after the water pump/alternator belt broke. We periodically check compression on our engines (24 month intervals) and I see engines near the 36,000 hour mark with 160 to 170 P.S.I. readings on all cylinders.
    Each owner of any equipment must decide what kind of oil change interval they want to use for their machines. I think it is safe to say that most of us can change the oil in our L&G equipment annually without worrying "if I'm doing it enough". I prefer to change the oil at the end of the season. I don't want that "contaminated" oil just sitting there in contact with the works of the engine for 6 months. I drop the oil (and filter where applicable), put in the fresh oil and run the engine for about 10 minutes (to make sure I get the oil "hot", gets rid of the moisture from the cold start up) before putting the machine away for the "off season". I feel that the fresh oil clings better to the engine parts than the old oil for the duration of storage. No matter what the "Oil experts" may say, some of us will continue with our own practices. For the people who lament that we are changing the oil "too often", well......there are some people out there who "never change their oil", so don't their habits offset the overall consumption average??

  • rcmoser
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, IMO I change my oil when I think it's needed. Sure I can follow the recommended 7500, but that my take two years. Do you thing ford or Nissan cares if you 8oK engine fails? NO they want the repair business. Ford timing chain repair is up to 3K and climbing, Just imagine what a huffer engine would be, not to mention what a Caddie would cost. So most don't keep a car that long and it don't matter, heck some probably don't even check the oil in 6 months let along change it in a year. But, think about it changing your oil at least two times a year may be cheaper than you think if you keep your car 5 years or more.

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