Why add the peat?
What you have is good as it is and does not need that non rewnewable resource added to it.

There are two good reasons to add peat to a container mix.

One is water retention. A good potting mix needs to drain well, but still retain sufficient moisture. Peat is a good solution for this.

Two, most of the plants going into the containers are acid loving plants, and peat provides that as well.

I use peat in my regular potting mix (Al's recipe from the Container Forum), but the bulk of the mix is shredded pine bark and perlite.

That said, I screened the finer stuff down a bit further this morning, with a 3/32" seive, and there is still too much solid hardwood in it. I'll just use it to topdress veggies and the Willow rod bed. It'll make a good mulch, and the critters can carry the compost down into the soil.

Leaf mold does the same thing usually cheaper and leaf mold is more environmentally sustainable.

Donn: as meticulous with his compost as he is with his seeds!

Karen

"Leaf mold does the same thing usually cheaper and leaf mold is more environmentally sustainable."

Horsehockey.

Leaf mold doesn't hold moisture nearly as well, it isn't generally as acid, and it breaks down way faster.

I don't buy the environmental issue on Sphagnum Peat, either. It's just more enviro-political hooha. I don't care for blatant preaching on a gardening forum. Take it to a conversation pit somewhere. It doesn't belong here.

I mix peat into my potting mix for my 30+ containers and it does a good enough job so I water every other day instead of daily. I save my home made compost for the more important task of improving my garden soils which are now in really good shape after many years of additions. Love that compost (grass clipping, leaves, kitchen scraps and manure)!

I don't buy the environmental issue on Sphagnum Peat, either. It's just more enviro-political hooha
Donn

I've wondered about the question of using sphagnum or not, you clearly know the issue well can you help me understand the issues?

Esther,

Most of the peat - over 90% - for the North American markets is harvested in Canada. For a few years, I was of the opinion that it was a non-renewable rescource, but last year changed my view after visiting a peat bog which had been harvested and then left to restore itself. The peat industry in Canada is a very tight-knit group which has come to respect it's bread and butter.

Here's a link to an article which might help to understand... Also, if you do the google thing, you'll find a lot of great info there too. Keep an open mind while reading both sides.

Here is a link that might be useful: Peat.

Thanks, Tiffy. I'm glad a Canadian chimed in. That same website will show you that Canada, the largest supplier, supports the generation of 60 times more peat than they harvest and sell.

" I don't care for blatant preaching on a gardening forum. Take it to a conversation pit somewhere"

touchy... I thought this place was about conversation. Right or wrong- try a good counter arguement, rather than throwing up on the thread...

"Right or wrong- try a good counter arguement.."

I don't know about you, Pablo, but I'm not here to argue. If I want argument, I'll go to a political forum, or watch cable news.

Counter arguement- as in the give and take of conversation, not as in "starting an arguement" or being confrontational.

I disagree with kimmsr on occasion- and kimmsr disagrees with me. When that happens we try and correct what we think is misinformation and to give a good arguement (as in- a well reasoned explanation of why the first opinion may have been off base).

Remember that people here want to help. If they're off base in the advice they give (even when they make certain bold statements)- we can disagree in a civil manner. I don't let things slide if I think there's bad info here, but very rarely do I "argue" in the sense that you thought I was implying.

FYI- I disagree with the blanket statement about peat not being sustainable as well.

peace,
-pH

Pablo..if you'll look back at the thread, you'll find I replied to the first "non rewnewable resource" comment in a civil manner, with the reasons I use peat.

The response was yet another enviro-political (and incorrect) statement. That's where discussion and expression of opinion became preaching, and that's where I drew the line.

OK- I understand how you got there. Sorry to act like the teacher.

"Use your words" LOL

Donn, in the end it seems that you are absolutely right about peat and how the forum should be conducted, if you will tell me all the places you have drawn the line I will know never to step over those lines.

Must be a full moon...

tj

"..if you will tell me all the places you have drawn the line I will know never to step over those lines."

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Great...and there's TWO full moons this month.

As tenders of the soil, and in particular composters, we need to keep in mind the phrase "Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return."

Life's too short for this.

tj

Donn, also remember that wet ducks never fly at night.

I sift mulch, that I get from the city, to use in my 3'x3'x3' containers. In addition to the sifted (1/4" screen) mulch, I add leaves, horse manure (and bedding), crushed egg shells, grass clippings, my own garden soil, and mushed bananas and apples.

I am making lasagna soil in my planters this year. So far, it's working well. Since I planted my ws seedlings in the planters they have grown 2 additional sets of leaves (bell peppers), and 1 additional set of leaves (toms) as well as grown taller, stem has thickened, and branches are longer.

Having the Canadian Peat Moss harvesting industry tell you they ae environmentally responsible is kind of like have Occidental, Dow, BayerCropScience, Hooker and thousands of smaller chemical companies tell you they are environmentalists. Companies that have polluted our world and which we are paying to clean up.
The state that a bog, abandoned for twenty years is showing signs of growing back, well yea, Ma Nature does that if possible. In Ireland they figue it will take 1,000 years to regenerate an inch of the peat bogs there, in a part of the world where it does not freeze for several months of the year. That then means peat moss is not a renewable resource. All of the nutrients that once were in the organic matter have been leached out of the peat because that material has been submerged in water for a long time, so in addition to the peat moss you really need to add some kind of nutrients along with that peat moss. Some peole tell me that peat moss last longer in their soil than does any other type of organic matter, it would because the soil bacteria cannot easily digest it.
Leaf mold will hold just as much moisture in the soil as peat moss will and leaf mold has many nutrients that can help feed the plants that are growing in the soil that leaf mold is added to. There are no disadvantages to adding leaf mold to soil while there are many that adding peat moss will have.

I sift mulch, that I get from the city, to use in my 3'x3'x3' containers. In addition to the sifted (1/4" screen) mulch, I add leaves, horse manure (and bedding), crushed egg shells, grass clippings, my own garden soil, and mushed bananas and apples.
Recluse

One thing to consider with soil/compost type container media is it works better in deep wide pots. The problem is temperature control where you are dealing with a living system is it is less tolerant of temperature change.

This is what amounts to a fairly large tall pot that I used as a kitchen scrap bucket. Notice the holes on the side, they are the only drainage. My theory is this deep pot (5gal bucket) can create different horizons with different organisms living at different levels allowing the plant to find its own spot.

Notice I moved the hosta aside to show how little weeds have grown in this pot, actually only one. Everyone knows how coffee grounds will make a crust so I put them on the surface deep enough to make a crust. The question is "will coffee suppress weed germination in a pot"?

{{gwi:280598}}

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Esther opal - this link may be of interest to you.

Here is a link that might be useful: Peat in gardens

Flora uk, thank you.

I see no point in using sphagnum in containers unless there is no substitute. Sphagnum is worthless in the soil.

> My theory is this deep pot (5gal bucket) can create
> different horizons with different organisms living at
> different levels allowing the plant to find its own spot.

Ester opal,

Your theory is correct. The lowest zone, and probably some zones above it, are unhealthy for the plant. Do that poor hosta a favor, and drill some holes in the bottom. If you do, beware of the water that first comes out of the bucket. It would be best to heavily flush the bucket with something like 20 gals. of water. Follow that with a good drink of ACT, or a topdressing with some nice, finished, but not too old compost, watered in.

rangier

Kimmsr,

In regards to your comments above, you must note that Canada has a larger land mass than Ireland and other European countries which have obliterated their peat bogs, and so we have a heck of a lot of peat. We are also not frozen for the greater part of the year... As an example, my soil was only frozen for 2 months this year.

Furthermore, the peat bogs which are harvested here are not vacuumed to the point of no return. A certain amount is removed from the surface, and then the harvesters move on leaving a substantial layer behind for faster rejuvenation.

After what I have seen, I believe this industry to be responsible and would rather listen to their facts than to the rantings of tree huggers who have not educated themselves on the conduct of the responsible owners of this industry.

You are correct in stating that sphagnum has no nutritive value to offer to plants, yet it does have properties which will help plants grow in containers and such, and for those who do not have leaf mold available, it no doubt becomes a viable alternative.

"You are correct in stating that sphagnum has no nutritive value to offer to plants.."

This isn't quite right. Peat, alone, is organic matter, and, as such, provides nutes.

In addition, peat's moisture holding and nutrient holding acid nature makes moisture and nutes available to container plants.

It also provides coarse structure to container mixes, which helps to aerate container soil.

Peat has been used in container media for hundreds of years, by people who specialize in container growing. If it didn't work, why do the experts continue to use it?

It's not a majority factor in these mixes, seldom comprising more than 10-15% of the mix, but it definately aids the mix.

Further, peat is frequently used, alone, in seeding trays and cells. In properly maintained seeding environments, it is often the best choice for seeding media.

Tiffy has pointed out the extent of Canada's peat store, and it's effective management. Citing the rape of other, much smaller stores as a benchmark for current conservation techniques is, at least, ingenuous.

Peat has been harvested, to the extreme, for fuel and other uses in places like the British Isles, for centuries. It was done for practical purposes, since their surface fuel sources, like wood, were exhausted long ago.

If you need a subject for outrage at environmental excess, surely you can find more egregious examples than peat.

One of the reasons people give for using peat moss as a soil amendment is that it lasts longer than does the shredded leaves and that alone should tell you something, that the soil bacteria do not, or cannot, digest that material as easily as they do other stuff. If the soil bacteria do not like it why put in in your soil?

But then again, Donn is asking about using the peat in containers which I consider different than incorporating it directly into the garden soil. Totally different environment.

"If the soil bacteria do not like it why put in in your soil?"

hmmm... probably best to get rid of the sand, silt, and anything else they don't eat.

It's added for structure. I don't use it, I don't recommend that others use it, but soil is more than organisms.

The Canadian Peat Moss Harvesting Industry is run by the Illuminati in conjunction with the Freemasons with the intention of depleting the nutrient content and starving soil organisms of every home garden in a blatently obvious attempt to ruin the gardens and break the spirits of self sufficient home gardeners all over the world. Once this is accomplished, all peoples of the earth will be forced to buy their produce at grocery stores, where the Freemasons have stocked the shelves with vegetables that have been genetically modified to create an overwhelming sense of apathy in anyone who eats them, thus enabling the Illuminati to effortlessly usher in the NEW WORLD ORDER.

You have been warned.

> You have been warned.

Hmmm...that reminds me...

rangier

Here is a link that might be useful: Monsanto and Civilization

"hmmm... probably best to get rid of the sand, silt, and anything else they don't eat"
That is going to the other extreme, although there are some that would argue that the mineral portion of soil, the sand, silt, and clay, are not needed at all.
If you recycle, on your premises, all of your vegetative waste by composting or putting that material right back into the soil, you most likely will not need to spend money on a product that does little for your soil and is not an easily renewable product. Most of us have enough organic matter readily available that we do not need to buy this stuff.

See what I mean, Pablo?

LOL

Knock it off you guys. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I don't see any preaching or outrage by anyone. I only see name-calling. Unless you consider "ranting tree-hugger" a term of endearment.

Now play nice.

weddingdance

I got very sandy, nutrient poor soil. Whenever I till in peat I get fantastic
results and very happy plants. I also done experiments where I threw some on
small areas of my pitiful looking lawn without adding any other nutrients. Those
patches green up nicely and the scraggly grass thrives and thickens. I don't buy
the thought that it's a nutrient poor admendment. Whatever it has the soil and
plants seem to love.

Here's peat mixed into gravelly sandy soil last spring and occasionally ammended with
fish emulsion.

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Swanz- it actually is nutrient poor, but does things like (potentially) hold nutrient and keep it from leaching away as well as holding moisture and acting as a mulch. (the same effect that one gets by adding humus or compost, except that compost has the plus that it carries more nutrients and the minus that most of it gets consumed quickly in sandy soil).

Your soil is probably about exactly like mine- which means that if you look at it the wrong way it dries out. It seems to respong very well to about any OM for the opposite reason that people have success with clay: drainage.

When someone says the microbes don't eat it, and therefore it's not good in the soil- I wonder about how many people have had good results with it- someone should tell them :)

I use leaves and compost for the same effect cheaper- but to each their own

I believe NPK numbers can be deceiving. My main beef with peat is I gotta pay for
it and they keep jacking up the price. Not buying any this year.

swanz,

How much do you pay for peat where you are?

I am not positive about peat being renewable or not. I do know that it is dug up and processed and wrapped in plastic and shipped hundreds if not thousands of miles to garden centers around the planet. I see no reason for buying such a product when I can make compost and use leaves and horse manure and all sorts of other items to hold water and provide a good environment for my plants.

The only having to water every other day with peat line was funny to me, I don't even water my container plants every other day. I put compost, leaves, and/or old horse manure in with the soil in my outdoor containers. Holds water really well, helps that I have a clay soil to start with. When there is an option, I go for locally available and free garden ingredients instead of buying stuff at the store. Not everyone has the time or inclination for that, but it is undeniably 1) cheaper, and 2) better for the planet to use the local organic material instead of the processed, transported, plastic wrapped stuff.

Marcia, who rarely hugs trees, but did dance around one with a lot of friends and ribbons on Saturday (Maypole)

Do that poor hosta a favor, and drill some holes in the bottom.
rangier

Notice the poor hosta is not so poor and I'm in the middle of an experiment. I'm well aware of ACT and I know the bottom would probably kill about anything.

Why so quick to judge work in progress?

Esther_opal,

Don't take me too seriously. I was going by the tremendous deterioration of the plant's health. Did I get the sequence switched? If I did, and they are after and before photos, instead of before and after, then I'm totally wrong.

rangier

The 1st is going dormant last fall and you can't see how really good the plant looks this spring.

Main point was to see if the coffee grounds suppressed weed seed germination in the pot which it has done very well so far. I've used this compost bucket before with good results but I wouldn't recommend it for just anything.

I'm going to do more of this little compost/rot bucket with a few plants until I run into a problem then try to figure what works and what doesn't and why.

Back to the coffee grounds, the crusting water shedding is not a problem in a container.

Speaking of peat...

All the free peat you can want.. (canadian - and yes.. packages of peat that say "100% canadian peat" do so for a reason, it's considered more environmentally friendly and is a regulated industry)

Marine way and Byrne drive in Burnaby BC.. tonnes of mall and residential construction going on - on top of a peat bog. Back your truck up and they will load it to the brim for free.

That's a little over 3,000 miles for me. Too far. ;>)

Would be nice though...eh?

So, Donn, did you use the peat in the CONTAINER???? :O) I truly wish to know, even though I don't think your question was answered.

Tiffy..most, not all, of my containers have some peat in them.

The original question (not about peat) got answered by Al (Tapla) on the Container Forum.

The partially composted hardwood isn't going into the container mix. I'm using it to topdress beds. The compost gets down into the bed, and the woodchips stay on top as mulch. The Robins are loving it.