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Greenhouses & Garden Structures

Water and Power

16 years ago

I am looking for some online or other resources in running a single water line and single electricity line to my HFGH. Anyone have tips or pointers? I have looked at several of your online sites and it looks like many of you don't tell much about the running of these to the structure... Thanks!

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Comments (14)

rosepedal
16 years ago
Hi Rotarycoach,

A newbie here. I can only tell you what we did. We rented a trencher at the rental place. It was about 80 dollars for 4 hours. We bought 400 ft of water line at Mills fleet farm it ran about 50 dollars. Now electric is exspensive because of the copper wire inside. If you are handy you can do it yourself. Gas line is also not cheap. I dont know what you plan on using for heat, but for us it was the best option. Definately rent a trencher it is easy to operate and saves your back. Remember you have to back fill your trench. If you cant do it you will have to hire someone. I am out of work lately. I had to do all the grunt work. In the long end, it was worth it. Did I say I had to fill it twice. We came into some gas line for free so I had two trenches to back fill. LOL you should see my muscles. Dont mess with electri if you dont know it or the gas. Hire someone to be safe!!!! Goodluck Barb
greenhouser
16 years ago
Because of solid rock between our waterline coming in from the road and our GHs, we don't have running water in them. We do have a hose I drag out there as needed. Both our hobby GHs are heated with electricity. Cheap, fast, safe and easy. :)
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Two things to remember about the TINY heat pump on top of the hot water heater. It only removes heat from the room to replace the BTUs that are removed from the space via hot water going out the pipe. Example. You go on vacation for a week. ZERO net heat is removed from the room. In other words, heat transfers from the stagnate hot water back into the room and then the heater kicks in and removes it from the space and transfers it back into the water... not free, but very inexpensive and absolutely no need for the home's heating plant to make up any heat - as I said, no NET heat loss or gain. Now take the case where you take a hot shower upstairs. ANY heat removed from the basement by the hot water piping remains inside the conditioned household envelope except that which exits via the plumbing drain in the shower. Also, presumably cold replacement water from the street is brought into the envelope to replace that drained water. I have NEVER seen a change in my basement temperature due to the heat pump hot water heater because my subterranean basement is simply a massive heat sink that resists temperature change big time. While I do remove like a pint of water from the air per day in the summer, I have never been able to measure a change in humidity - just the nuisance of having to deal with disposing of the condensate. You're creating an apples and oranges situation when you compare heating with gas and "pumping heat" from the room into the water. With your gas heater, the heat that 'flows' back into the room is not recycled back into the hot water heater, rather it is "replenished" by bring NG into the room and igniting it in a non-recoverable manner. The net effect is to heat the room while you are on vacation... as I suggested there is ZERO net effect with the heat pump hot water heater in my example. I have documented in this forum that my electrical savings for my family of two is approximately $40 per month due to the hot water heater as compared to the electric hot water heater I previously owned. I also have tried, with mixed result, to explain that taking the basement as a system and drawing a diagram show heat in and heat out of that system is helpful. Too many folks that have never owned one of these and have made false assumptions have reached conclusions that are absolute nonsense. My unit is a GE model... I had a compressor leak after 11 months that was repaired under warranty. Reportedly this problem was not an isolated case... and the Model was discontinued. If you have the time, the final math problem (actually rather simple) is to assume some water usage and calculate the enthalpy rise in the heater times the gallons and determine how much heat is being removed from the basement... that is the amount of heat that your heat pump would need to replace in the basement to maintain equilibrium. If I were the OP, I suspect I would opt for the Gas heater because the response time is faster, because it is quieter, and because he will not have to mess with disposing of a pint of water every day during the summer. But, I suspect that you need to caution the OP that his heater is heating the inside of the house during cooling season. :-) I played loose with my terminology re Heat Transfer in the above in order to attempt to better communicate the concepts - by background and education I am capable of using proper terms and terminology, but choose this approach.
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ionized_gw: I think that gas tankless has become more mainstream. In addition, the incentives have started to go away. Much of the initial complaints with gas tankless were around bad installation and/or bad retrofitting. I don't think they are sliding in popularity as much as they simply aren't the new kid on the block any longer. On new installs, gas tankless doesn't cost significantly more than a power vent heater and you see them installed on new upscale homes here because of the unlimited hot water. Rheem has addressed the "cold water sandwich" by delaying a "post purge" cycle when the heater is turning off and on frequently. This means that the heat exchanger doesn't rapidly cool off -- eliminating the "cold" part of the sandwich. I insulate my hot water lines also to reduce heat loss between uses. I know I'd never go back to a standard tank water heater. As for electrical requirements on the hybrids - it's the same as a standard electric water heater. The reason is because they sometimes have to fall back to electric resistance heat if the ambient temp is too low or quick recovery is needed. There was some reliability issues on the early hybrids that has since been worked out, I believe. As a side note: Hybrids are being linked up with PV -- meaning that while you would never use solar PV to power electric resistance water heater, it's a good match up for a hybrid water heater. Oil isn't much of "a thing" where I am, so I can't really comment on that. SaltiDawg: The op was seen screaming and running from the building
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mudhouse_gw
16 years ago
I think some folks are hesitant to post details about electrical/plumbing stuff for two reasons...one, because local ordinances might officially require them to get a permit and have it inspected (ahem) and two, they worried about giving advice about a potentially dangerous step to folks who may not have much experience.

You might see if you can find a local electrician to give you the basic info about what you'll need, and see if they'll let you do the trenching and laying of lines yourself. Having them back to do the final connections often costs a lot less than doing the whole job, and we've done that before.

We gave a lot of thought to the size and number of electric heaters and fans we'd need (and where they would be located in the GH.) That's critical info to pass on to an electrician too. Frankly, figuring out the plan for the electrical stuff was one of my least favorite parts of the whole project, but for other folks it might be easier.
rosepedal
16 years ago
Hi here are some pics...

{{gwi:308620}}

I Threw in an extra one. It was very warm today up north. Barb
{{gwi:308621}}
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{{gwi:308623}}
mudhouse_gw
16 years ago
Barb, looks like you were wise and put in a lot of outlets. I only have three, and they're already all used up.
rosepedal
16 years ago
Mudhouse, if you only knew what a help you have been. Thanks for everything. Ole dawg i was thinking of you today. You all have been so nice. John you and your day length link too cool. Greenhouser your awesome. Jim you too and the list goes on...... I look forward to all of you guys. Here are some more pics. Can you tell im a newbie..... Rjinga I am thinking this could give you some ideas anyw
{{gwi:308624}}
{{gwi:308625}}
{{gwi:308626}}
ays..... Thanks all...... Barb
wyndyacre
16 years ago
We put 6 exterior GFI outlets in my 10x16 GH. (The kind with hinged covers) For even more safety, we also placed them just above head height on the walls. Still reachable to plug things in like fans, heater, heatmats and radios but out of the way of drips or spray from the hose.
mudhouse_gw
16 years ago
I think higher is better too (as long as your heater cord can reach, if it sits on the floor.) I had a fistfight with my DH to get all my GFI outlets ABOVE the benches. In my next greenhouse (ha) they will be even higher...like Rosepedal or Wyndyacre. Right now mine are about at the height of my prickly cacti...I plug things in slooowwwly. LOL!

Barb, an overhead light and a light switch too! Up town!
stressbaby
16 years ago
It's hard to have too many outlets. I have 17 GFCI outlets on 4 separate breakers in my 20x23. I have used everyone of them at one time or another.

I have water and 100amp electric service. The contractor who did my foundation put in the water and the electrician ran the electric to the breaker box. I did everything past the circuit breakers with the exception of one little bit of conduit I couldn't bend. I am happy to help with what I know.

Tips or pointers? Put everything in the trench...water, electric, even a phone line for remote climate monitoring in case you ever decide you need it.
rosepedal
16 years ago
http://foxesearth.googlepages.com/greenhouseinprogress
rotarycoach
Original Author
16 years ago
Well, I am pretty handy but just don't know much about these subjects. If there are not any good how-tos or help on the subject, then what do you think I should budget to get an electrician and plumber complete this step? (greenhouse will be about 20 ft from house)
fredgsanford
16 years ago
rotarycoach,

I am a licensed unrestricted electrical contractor in Georgia. I'll be glad to walk you through any electrical process. We can go step by step so you won't get confused.
dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
16 years ago
If you don't bury your waterline below your local frost line, make sure you have a way of draining the water in the winter. A Separate faucet inlet at the begining of the waterline will let you use compressed air to blow out water inside the pipes.

If you bury electric conduit, or gas line, bury a thick board over the pipes to prevent future people from damaging the line.

If you dig a trench for your stuff, bury an extra empty spare pipe for future use.

dcarch
rotarycoach
Original Author
16 years ago
fredgsanford,

Thanks for the generous offer! Please shoot me an e-mail if you would to: rotarycoach @ gmail.com

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