Their trash...Bottom of the heap junk. Fine for the small average lawn though but they are nothing special.

Now a real Toro is something else. Toro and Wheel Horse made some great stuff. So did John Deere.

Now your point about all the old Deeres that are rusted junk and your Toro still going strong is another story altogether that I don't buy. Both companies made excellent lawn and garden tractors and I see as many old Deeres around as old Toro's if not more.

the old Toros, like the old craftsman tractors - were good machines. People may comment (negatively) about the new one's though.... and guess what: people also comment (negatively) about the new JD's too.... that they're not made like they're used to be....

So they all get their bashing.... I think the only difference is that you will hear people say that the "new - cheap" JDs are better than the "new - cheap" other-brands..... but that's another debate that there is no need to get into at this time....

Most of us buy a lawn mower he can afford (except for the ones with the silver spoons or daddies money). Some have skills and others don't have a clue. They ones that don't have a clue can tear-up or wear out an anvil. The ones that have a clue can keep brand X running for a long, LONG, LONG time. But, as we get older we want to upgrade to a more fancier, efficent, and lighter model which then we find out that the older one was more HEAVY DUTY.

23 Years old.
Not the first major problem and still going as strong today as did when it was new.

{{gwi:321964}}

It is how they are treated and cared for. My Dad has a Craftsman with a 36 inch deck and a 12 hp Briggs tractor that he bought new in 1974 and it is still going. As far as the engine goes. I can only remember him installing a new set of points and a condenser which he did last spring. While his neighbor buys a weed eater and a new push mower almost every Summer. But no one can convince the man that a push mower is not made for spreading #57 gravel or a lawn tractor Craftsman lawn tractor is built to mow in places that I would not even start with a full sized tractor and brush hog.

When I was a kid my Dad had 2 Toro push mowers we had to use to cut his 3 acres of grass. Left a long lasting bad taste in my mouth as they wouldn't start or run consistantly. (I don't know; maybe it was the manure on the silver spoon in my mouth???)
By any chance were the hoods rusted on those old JDs you seen?

There's a huge difference between John Deere, as a company and MTD, as a company.

Deere started out making farm equipment and had to build a reputation within the farming community in order to survive. Farmers demand quality and longevity in everything they buy. Therefore, Deere built their lawn and garden tractor line with the same sort of quality that was in their ag and construction lines. The consumer could either afford to pay the price for the Deere GT's or they couldn't.

Those that couldn't went elsewhere until Deere decided to compete in that sector of the market with a tractor line that was down scale from what they normally produced.

MTD began by making private brand products for large retail chains, often under the house-brand name used by that chain. These products were all built to compete at low price-points in comparison to what Deere offered. AYP and Murray also were in that mix. No matter how you cut it, MTD's reputation for producing cheaply made products is of their own doing. The tractor might have the name of the retailer in big, bold letters across the side of the hood but it was no secret that MTD was the company that made the product.

For the most part, people got what they paid for and then were disappointed when idlers blew apart or deck spindles snapped or stress cracks from vibration and twisting appeared. Many of the people who populate this forum and advise against MTD, AYP and Murray products, do so because they owned one or more of them and found them to be a problem.

Are all MTD tractors junk? Absolutely not. MTD has made some excellent GT's in the past under their own name. Toro, Cub Cadet, Bolens and Troy-built were companies that made great products. Today, all of these are owned by MTD. Some of the product turned out after MTD assumed control has been ok but there have also been problems. How a company looks after such problems forms a large part of their reputation in the marketplace.

MTD has not been exactly great in the area of after-sale customer care. Once again, this is their choice and they have to live with the results of people bad-mouthing them. Like many people on this list, my dad also had a Toro pushmower. So what?

A pushmower consists of four adjustable wheels on a deck that is either stamped steel or cast aluminum with a handle attached to it. That's the extent of Toro's involvement. Toro doesn't make the engine, the throttle assembly or even the wheels. If the engine fails to start, is that Toro's fault or is it Briggs's?

As for tractors rusting out and going to the junkyard, I see far more good, used Deeres for sale on Craigslist, Kijiji and BuySell than any other brand. I chalk this up to market penetration as well as the quality of Deere product. That's the way it is in my area but perhaps your area is different for reasons that have more to do with what's being sold locally than anything else.

In some areas of the country, all the farmers own Deere equipment while in others, Case or International or Ford seems to dominate. Dealers make a huge difference in securing brand loyalty. The same holds true for lawn and garden equipment.

Not sure if it is Toro's fault or Briggs fault. What I am sure of though is the blood and blisters inflicted to my hands from pulling that stupid rope a hundred times. I'm sure there were things I could have done to get the thing to start but when your 9 or 10 years old you typically haven't learned those things yet. My Dad was of no use as he was always working at least two jobs.

I still want to hear about the plastic JD hoods getting rusty.

Its not clear to me that MTD currently owns all of Toro. I think Toro the company is still more or less independent, but they did license the Toro name to be used on the line of tractors MTD is making for Home Depot. Toro struggled competing with the box store retailers and wasn't really set up to build a tractor that would compete in that market directly. But I think Toro still sells their higher-end non MTD made models through independent dealers as well as the MTD made LX line.

My impression is that aside from minor cosmetics, the Toro (HD) and Troybilt (Lowes) tractors are basically the same thing with pedal-operated varidrives.

MTD has a long history of buying up well-known but financially challenged OPE makers over the years. That's how they ended up with Bolens, Troybilt, and Cub Cadet.

The traditional MTD makes are YardMachines and YardMan. Oddly enough, not too many years ago YardMan was considered at least an intermediate priced product, a couple notches above a YardMachine.

But MTD has also made tractors under a bunch of different private labels. Cenex, out of Farmers Union Oil stores in the MIdWest, and Huskee, a line for Tractor Supply, as well as others. These are all variations on YardMachines. YardMachines still shows up at HD as their least expensive line, as well as at many hardware stores. YardMan shows up on occasion at Wal-Mart.

D

Wheely Boy,
I know you're trying to get a ruse, but my 1985 JD 112L had rust on the hood. Acutally, just a round circle where after cleaning the battery posts on my JD LT133, I've inadvertently left the battery post brush/cleaner on the 112L's hood. Went back the next day, left a circle of rust that was easily wiped up. Other than that - no rust. I've seen where the hood fasteners get rusty and the rust would then leave their trail on the hoods, but.....

I see it as JD High end market place wasn't selling that many units. SO, They had to build reasonable priced product to try get a share of the majority of the market, instead of selling thousands units they wanted to get into selling hundreds of thousands of units. We I think they done a good job and raising the bar for the other brands. Now, us Farmer wantabes can have the JD logo at just a TAD more. Quality or realibility will be subjective until they get a few years on them IMO.

I hear about all the problems with ecomony models, I have never experienced any. Seen alot of other people have problems, but once you observe their habits you see why.

As far as the older Toro's which probably had Briggs engines and they were probably white like about 40 million others was an individual problem. IMO the old white briggs was some of there best engines. After '75 when CEO's and high level management wanted more play money they cheapen them and started cutting corners living on they good name for awhile. especially in the mid 80's. But, by this time the big wigs was filty rich and could care less, so they moved on leaving the working stiff in riff and the new CEOs with a more extreme approach, cutting jobs and outsorcing to line their pockets.

Hence todays world. What will tomorrow bring? less and less jobs, the signs are already in place with all the forclosures starting. Snowball effect coming.

Nowhere in either Toro's or MTD's corporate profiles is it indicated that either one owns the other.

I can't believe that the Toro LX425 sold at HD and the Toro LX425 sold at my local Toro dealer are different.

No one answered my original question, i.e., don't you think that if Toro is licensing their equipment manufacturer to a subcontractor they would be having it made to their specs? I say that becasue the HD JD sitting right next to the HD Toro looked to be of equivalent "quality" (whatever that means), while the Yardman clearly looked a cut below.

As far as the last 2 JD "riding lawnmowers" (i.e., 12 hp size from the 1980's) that I saw in the junk pile, the hoods might very well be rust free. The 2 in question were missing their motors and hoods.

The reason you see these tractors in the junk pile is because people are parting them out and selling the parts on e-bay to the multitudes of people still running these old machines. You won't find as many on the trade-in lots because they are still loved and used by most and parts are available through JD. As far as why everyone is trading off their Toros, your guess is as good as mine.

As of my personal preference, id rather use something other then a John deer or Cub cadet, besides the cost factor ( even for old ones), i just prefer other older brands to them. My fleet of 15 consist of MTD's, Dynamarks , Murrays, a Craftsman, a Simplicity and a Wheelhorse. All were purchased as non runners, and all run today with very little effort/expense. Im not talking a few years old either, the bulk of mine are in the 10-20 year range with original motors.
I still have a 12HP White LT12 ( the only brand new mower i ever bot and still runs) and a small 5HP Toro, with no deck back at my folks house and it still runs, its pretty quick for a little tractor.
I sorta like the looks of the new 'Zero turn' Cub cadet tractor, but i cant justify the $5000 price based on that alone. Sides my 4 wheel steering MTD is similar and heck that was free and it runs.
I should also mention that all of my tractors are using Briggs and Stratton motors, the only other brand of motors ive had are Tecumsehs, and i dont like those at all, the biggs are by far easier to maintain and have always run alot better then the teccys did.
Kidd

Toro doesn't belong to MTD. Toro merely licensed MTD to build the LX4xx and GT2xxx series specifically to be sold in HD and Lowe's stores. The reason I've heard is that Toro can't build a machine to compete at the low end of the price spectrum. My local dealer refused to sell these two series; he contends there's a big difference between the MTD Toros and the Toro Wheel Horse lines, primarily in frame construction and belt quality.

John

I bought my used Kubota diesel from a John Deere dealership . . . . which also sells Kubotas

The owner of the shop was really down on the 'box store' John Deeres - "Because we're a Deere dealership, we have to service them and compared to the real thing, they're pretty much junk" he said. "If I could refuse to service them because we didn't sell them, I would" he said, "But you know they're not going to get any service from the outfit they bought them from, so they wind up here and because we're an authorized JD dealership we have to deal with them"

He's also a little puzzled by the 'Deere Craze' afflicting so many homeowners - "Every homeowner with half an acre or more wants a JD so they can feel just like the Big Boys (the farmers)" he said. "Oddly, I sell twice as many Kubotas to farmers as I do Deeres, but ten times as many Deeres to homeowners as Kubotas"

Depending on how they've been cared for, you'll find some 25 year old $500 tractors still going strong . . . . and some owners of $5K Deeres, Kubotas, Cubs, Toro's, Wheelhorses and the like who don't have anything good to say about their experience with their machines

I'm pretty hard on my equipment and I've found that the better ones stand up to severe service lots longer than the cheaper ones

Don

Davidld said,
"Its not clear to me that MTD currently owns all of Toro."

Geez I'm glad to hear that because I thought I owned some of Toro! To the best of my knowledge MTD has never owned any stock in Toro.

Toro is a very large manufacturer of professional
turf management equipment that also sells push mowers and
consumer ztrs. They have not been concentrating on marketing their lawn and garden tractors in recent years because ztr's
are growing faster. They are just using their name to sell these new LZ models built by MTD.

MTD, formerly known as Modern Tool and Die, is privately owned. You can't buy any MTD stock. MTD bought lawn and garden companies like Bolens, Troy-bilt, Cub Cadet etc. when
they or a parent company were in financial trouble. Toro
is as healthy as Deere.

A good reputation must be earned, and can't be bought. This is a lesson MTD will unfortunately learn the hard way.

This is my 1976 Dayton (MTD)
{{gwi:321967}}
This is what you can do with it.
{{gwi:321969}}
{{gwi:314227}}
You can make new equipment for it.
{{gwi:321971}}

But it is only a 30 year old MTD so what good is it.

MTD just builds the Toro riding mowers that are sold at Home Depot.

The LX420, LX460, LX500 and the GT2100, GT2200, GT2300 are all made under contract by MTD.

I likes em all ! *S*

gypsmjim wrote: "No one answered my original question, i.e., don't you think that if Toro is licensing their equipment manufacturer to a subcontractor they would be having it made to their specs? I say that becasue the HD JD sitting right next to the HD Toro looked to be of equivalent "quality" (whatever that means), while the Yardman clearly looked a cut below."

**********************************************************

MTD is in the business of manufacturing tractors to the specifications agreed upon between themselves and the party ordering the tractors. So, in my opinion, Toro calls the shots when it comes to choosing the quality of the components selected for tractors bearing the Toro name.

When it comes to OPE, the selling price increases as the quality, size and features of the tractor increases. Better hydros, larger hp, larger deck sizes, larger tires are the obvious differences that salespeople point out to the consumer. Whether the blade spindles are stronger or the idler pulleys use larger bearings in them are things that the consumer can't be shown nor would many of them even understand.

If all three tractors you looked at are within 100 dollars of each other, then you would expect them to be built to roughly the same quality and offer the same features. If the Yardman is several hundred dollars less expensive, then it will certainly be lacking in features and quality.

If you are considering all three, then look up the specs and do a detailed comparison. Start with the hydro unit because, aside from the engine, that is the second most expensive repair part on the tractor.

Wow Blacksmithman - thats a great looking tractor for being 30 years old. Is that original or restored? If its restored- y did a great job. Ive always liked the fact that on really old tractors, theres SHEETMETAL everywhere, not plastic , like on todays tractors, like its supposed to make them lighter and faster or something? Like areodynamics really matter for mowing the yard. I also think old tractors have character, they all dont look like theyre smiling or frowning on todays models. Keep it running for another 30 years.
Kidd