Amy, just to get this thing started, I'd like to congratulate you on your project. I'm happy to hear you wish to leave the back area in a natural condition. Also, while I don't have any direct experience with live oak, I personally don't consider acorns as something one has to deal with. Lots of critters like to eat them, and as for the rest, won't you be able to just mow over the top of them? Anyway, good luck with your plantings. BTW, which way is North on your drawing? Not a big deal, but that could help to inform our considerations.

+oM

the live oak she is talking about is q. fusiformis. sometimes described as a var of virginiana. They are good trees for her region. But yes they are messy. They are evergreen oaks but still shed lots of leaves and tons of acorns, and nasty green pollen.

Why not just one in the front yard? and two of something else. Same advice for the back. Just one bur oak. Some oaks in texas have been afflicted with oak wilt.

West central texas can mean a lot things. Rockspings? San Angelo? Junction? If you can find a decent sized big tooth maple you should definitely replace one bur oak with one or two they are slow growing but probably the best large ornamental tree for texas in my opinion. here are some pics I took of some native trees

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Arizona cypress is a great idea. You can get a blue variety and a green variety.

Another well adapted evergreen is cedrus deodora. I say replace a live oak with one.

Yes, we are in San Angelo! The sun is harshest (at least right now) on the right, top side of my drawing (which is the front part of our house). IÂm not sure which angle the sun changes as it turns summer. But the way our circle drive way is done, we have by far the most space on that top, right corner (which is where the sun is the harshest) so we want the LARGEST tree there. Is the big tooth maple larger or smaller than a bur oak?

And I thought you couldnÂt mow up acorns? WeÂre living at my momÂs house while weÂre building and she has a live oak in the back yard and hates it b/c the mowers wonÂt pick it up?

Seriously, any and all input is greatly appreciatedÂÂIÂm so overwhelmed with picking out tile size, door knob colors, shutters, countertop depth, staircase finishes, etc that I canÂt imagine tackling the steep learning curve of landscaping at this point!!

Am in TX

Amy,
I lived in Big Spring for 9 years and agree with the suggestions above. I don't remember seeing any deodars out there, but they should do well in San Angelo. Might be a unique addition.

Another quality oak you may want to consider is Chinqapin (sp?). It is resistant to oak wilt and a beautiful tree. And, yes, afghan pines will be great out there. I had them as wind breaks next to the cotton fields. They did well with a minimum of care. I did drip irrigate them on occasion, but once established they should flourish.

Check out Texas Super Star web site for some other really good ideas. Shantung maples, Chineses pistache, etc. Most of all, just have a ball!!
J.D.

Here is a link that might be useful: Texas Super Star Plants

I know oaks are messy, but perhaps since you don't want them in the formal areas of the yard...perhaps you can put them in the area you are making your "natural" area. Then putting the unnatural trees like the afghan pine in the more formal areas of the yard? Those oaks will provide a nice screen between the formal and natural areas?

**edit**
Actually I just read something about the afghan pine since i'm not too familiar with it...and it does mention that since they non-native afghan pines were overly planted in texas...a fungus has spread killing many of the mature specimens. Perhaps you can plant a more native pine? Good luck!!

I believe the live oaks are going in the back yard, right? In stead of planting 3 of them, perhaps just two and use the rest of the area for something like the Big tooth maple. That way you won't have so many acorns. The acorns will be a big wildlife attractor if you like wildlife. Having the "matching" bur oaks in the front will give you some symmetry (if you like that). I think that having just one and then something different for the second tree would be nice too. I could go either way!

If you love trees (like many people here do), it is hard to pick just 2-3 kinds when there are so many good ones.

By the way, this site from Austin (not sure how close that is to you or if that matters) says that Chinese pistache has invasive tendencies there so I'd steer clear of that one.

Here is a link that might be useful: Do not plant list (for Austin)

I love Live Oaks and Burr oaks seem to be just as nice. We just mow over the live oak acorns and those not taken by wildlife quickly turn into mulch. Burr Oak acorns are much larger but I suppose you still just mow over them.

Few trees are as majestic as the oaks. Here's one vote for sticking with the pro's plan. Although I'd be curious as to how close the plan calls for the three live oaks to be planted together. They get very big eventually and in the interest of their long term health, you might want only two.

a couple thoughts ....

first.. if you have any inclination to garden under your trees.... i would suggest to stay away from maples .... and various other shallow rooted trees ... personal preference there ...

second .... potentially giant trees .... should not be planted too close to the house.. IMHO ... in someones lifetime..t hey will be overhanging the house and need to be severely pruned or removed .... don't fall into the trap that i want shade on the patio ... and plant a young tree and think it will provide the shade you want in your lifetime ... any tree that will grow that fast ... should NOT be planted that close to the house.. and fast to grow.. means fast to die .... ergo .. if you want a shaded patio ... build a structure that will provide the shade you want ... and plant the trees further away from the house .... in other words... you may want to include such in your mortgage also ....

i have no experience in your zone... so i have no specific recommendations ....

good luck

ken

Sounds like you like the concept, but not the choices provided, a common enough thing in a consumer driven society.

First, there are 500,000 plants in this world. It's literally a world of possibilities. One choice is not necessarily good or bad, it's just a choice...since you obviously cannot plant a representative of all the different plant species, choosing some means you exclude others.

Second, height of limbs equals pruning. Perhaps the tree will do it naturally, perhaps you can assist. Don't worry, it's done all the time.

Third, EVERY tree has something wrong with it, either in fact or perceived. We want clean trees; actually, we want genetically engineered trees that have all the benefits we desire (evergreen, fast growing, fall color, gorgeous flowers) and none of the bad things (uncomely litter that distorts a pristine lawn, roots that deter ornamental gardening, disease susceptibility, invasive potential, a myriad other things). If there is a reason you don't like a tree, I'd first ask why that person selected it, then I'd ask what alternatives there are. There are choices. Too, many, in fact.

As far as potential value of landscaping, this is a crap shoot. For purposes of including in a financing package, I'd shoot for 10% of the value of the home. Surveys regarding value of landscaping among realtors have returned results as low as 4%, as high as 20%, with most falling between 8% and 12%. So, if you spend approximately 10%, the cost will be about offset by the added value to the home.

As far as whether or not the prices you were quoted were reasonable, that is #1) not our business and #2) you didn't provide any details.

I have construction cost estimating guides that have a value for a tree to be planted. I think they got the prices from a peyote-consuming rabid aye-aye visiting from Pluto. I couldn't grow a tree for the price given, much less buy one, much less make enough money to be around in the future.

Live Oaks should do well. We're sw of Waco and have them in our front yard, at about 20 yrs old now they are wonderful trees. They do not seem messy at all. The acorns are not large and fall in the grass or all carried off by squirrels. The leaves are small. This seems to be to be an excellent yard tree for most areas of Tx.
Bur Oaks are reputed to be excellent trees also. Very hardy and drought and wind tolerant. They do have the largest acorns in the oak family. The acorns may be a bit of a problem, but I've never heard anyone complain about them. Have one just planted in yard this year. Know several people with older trees who just love them.
Shumard Red Oak does well here and often has dependeable red leaf color. This might be another oak to consider. It is also widely planted here and does well. It usually is more drought resistant than live oak. It also is a fairly clean tree. At 10 yo, our 2 red oaks are already dropping as many acorns as the 20 yo live oaks.
Chinkapin Oak is supposed to do well here, but I've only seen them in the wild by creeks or rivers. They are not often planted here. Would be hesitant to use them unless you see several others planted in your area doing well.
The toughest oaks : Bur and then Shumard.
The best looking : Live and Shumard.
Arizona Cypress : does well here. It should do even better west of here toward your location. There are several large specimens in Waco and particularly Killeen, Tx. areas. Have 5 of them planted, seeing about 1' growth/yr.
Recommend getting the named cultivars if possible, such as "Carolina Sapphire" and "Blue Ice". Water for the first summer only. Allow at least a week between waterings.
Eastern Red Cedar should do well there also.
All of the above are native to the state.
The Afghan Pine does well here for a few years, then tends to die from a fungal disease. It should do better farther west of I-35, where you are located.
If you're worried about low limbs on the ground, simply begin to trim them off after tree is several years old. Never trim more than about 15% in one year.

some good advice here. Couple follow up points. Afghan pine shuld do well there, if you have sandy soil. Probably dry enough to avoid the fungal problems that plague it in more central and eastern texas. But it needs good drainage. It grows very fast once estblished Ive heard 3 or 4 feet in midland area in a single year.

Same for arizona cypress. Very fast. Chinese pistach is unlikely to be invsive unles you have a male and female tree. Its dioecious. Try and find the elusive cultivar from CA. Cannot recall the name.....Or consider the similar texas native pistach.

cant reccomend big tooth maple enough. Maybe a pinyon pine....Good luck.

Oh, big tooth maples are smaller than bur oaks and slower growing. Need a decent amount sun, but not the hottest sunniest part of the yard. Can actually scortch in very sunny positions. The few native populations are in cooler areas, canyons and mountainous areas, relics from a cooler time. Like the "lost maples" near vanderpool. They do have a shallow root system so yeah, dont garden right underneath it.

I say live oaks are messy because I have some large ones in my small yard so it adds up. The leaves are tough and persist for some time after falling. Not like maple leaves. Also had another bumper crop of acorns which attract squirrels. I hate squirrels because they vandalize my plants. When the pollen falls my truck is covered in green dust.

But having said all that, they are regarded as one of the more valuable shade trees for the region. I just wanted to point out a few things and encourage you to think about adding some variety. Your pros plan is pretty prosaic.

I saw a real nice deodar cedar in a lawn in Kerrville. so I think it would work in San Angelo.

Thanks so much for all the valuable input!

It looks like there's only one Blue Tooth Maple nursery in Texas, and they only have 5 gallons for sale. Apparently there's a waiting list for the others they are growing. So instead maybe I could replace one Bur Oak with a Shumard Oak or smaller Texas Red Oak. And replace one of the Live Oaks in the back with a Deodar Cedar...they look like fun.

For bigtooth maple, I would highly recommend Love Creek Nursery nearby San Antonio. That's where I got mine. Much better shape than any other places at outrageous price esp for 2 feet or shorter!

I'd tell you to look into shantung maple 'Fire Dragon' for its consistent red fall color but I don't know if it'd grow that far west. Might want to contact Metro Maples (google it) and contact the owner about it. They are shipping trees during winter only when they are dormant. I think they are around 3-4 feet tall. They grow fast once established.

More oak choices...

Mexican white oak (Q. polymorphia) - suitable alternative to Live oak for better oak wilt resistance - semi-evergreen in your area probably.

Canby red oak (Q. Canbyi) - has smaller leaves than shumard oak but stays green longer into the fall/winter. Shumard oak is probably my favorite but it has annoying habit of hanging on dead leaves through the winter....

Perhaps Montezuma cypress! Look for new mexico source for better cold tolerance (Yuccado nursery sells them - contact them if they are still selling them or not - fast grower! around 50-75 feet - very long lived)

Also look at TEXAS white ash (Fraxinus texensis) - Supposedly fast grower to mid size around 30-50 feet. Hard to find though but great ash tree for Texas unlike those arizona ash which is absolute trash. Very commonly sold at retail stores for some reason.

Texas White Redbud! White flower blooms! 15x15 feet.

I think Italian Stone Pine tree can grow there.

Still thinking of more trees.... I will come back if something else comes to mind...

The bur oaks are an excellent choice. For the live oaks, you might want to substitute chinkapin oaks (Quercus muehlenberghii). They are highly recommended for Texas, and are becoming increasingly available both from state nurseries and commercial sources. You might want to check out Oikos Tree Crops.

I'm sure live Oaks are extremely overplanted in your area and they are really boring trees. Very little ornamental appeal.

I would look hard to find a landscape designer that understands there are more than 3 types of trees that grow in your area. Or you can do what I did, which was read up and learn about trees and do my own selection and planting.

Chinkapin Oak trees are easy to find in Texas. They are commonly sold at big box stores and most nursery so no need to order one online.

I agree with QQ - Live oak seems to be EVERYWHERE in Central Texas - at least in Austin and its surrounding. For this reason, more and more are planting Mexican white oak instead because of oak wilt resistant. I'd highly recommend Mexican white oak because of fast growth plus it's nearly evergreen. New growth is red-pinkish color which is pretty nice. Should be easy to find there since I'm seeing a lot of new young trees across Austin.

Bur oak is a great choice if you don't mind golf ball sized acorns!

I agree with the above statements on Live oak being a boring tree. They have no fall color or winter interest. They look the same all year long, except for a couple of weeks in spring when they put out new leaves.

Woah I'm not used to people agreeing with me on my opinions about live oak.

Here are some good websites, usually passed around to texas residents. The first one is a tree selector for the most common trees and the second is a much more complete site with native trees and colorful photos of them.

First site
second site

Well, I think Live oaks are okay as occasional specimen trees and they do have their rightful place in the maritime forests along the coast, but they are way overplanted as street trees and in new subdivisions here. They're often a contractors first choice (with red maple) because of availability and ease of transplanting.

Live oak was actually the one that the builder planted at my new house. needless to say, I got rid of it. It was planted in the west side and I needed sun on the house during the winter so I planted Shumard red oak instead. The builder didn't do a good job of planting live oak anyway. 8 inches too deep and the hole was the exact size of the container....

Mexican White Oak would also be an excellent substitution for Live Oak.

Afghan pines do well all over West Texas. The fungal disease is more of a problem for those in more humid, higher rainfall areas. Any drive through the country in Tom Green county north and west will demonstrate many homes ringed with them for wind breaks. Afghan pine are native to relatively arid conditions.

lou_midlothian is right - Montezuma Cypress (Taxodium mucronatum) would be a great consideration. The New Mexico variety would be most winter hardy. They are drought tolerant once established and fast growing, strong trees (not a common attribute).

Oh, the sacrilege!

I may have to change my name to LiveOakTerry

A lot of opinions have been given. Many are valid - some not so valid.

Avoid bur oak in a small space - total shade, lots of roots, buckets of golf ball size acorns. Quercus fusiformis is not available generally through the nursery trade but instead Quercus virginiana is used - very fast growing - great tree but perhaps not the best for San Angelo.

Arizona cypress would do well.

Stay away from the "white" red bud. Crape myrtles give you a longer bloom cycle and will live to be over 50 years old. White red buds have a very short life as do Afghan pines (Pinus elderica).

Best advice - walk your neighborhood and look to see what others have planted and how well or how poorly their plant material is doing. Duplicate what others have had success with. Look at some high desert plants such as palo verde, mesquite, huisache, etc. - Very small leaves, very little mess, extraordinarily drought resistant.

As an arborist for 34+ years, I've seen the many mistakes people make with the wrong tree in the wrong place.

One of the best things you can do is contact the Tom Green County Extension office. They will have some of the BEST advice. They may not have answers for the more 'exotic' suggestions above, but they will be able to tell you for sure what to avoid.

I bought my Big Tooth Maple from Metro Maples. He has the healthiest trees I've seen from any grower.

If you're letting the back go natural, I would suggest planting a couple different types so it looks a little more informal. Check otu Native Texas Landscaping by Sally Wasowski. Great book that gives you native choices region by region. It is a god send if you are wanting to plan your own landscape.

Just to throw a few more suggestions out there:
Texas Ash
Shantung Maple

I've been to Central and I can say that Live oak trees there are different than the ones in Houston. Totally different trees. I don't know what Austin Tree specialist is talking about. The live oak trees that I've seen sold at Lowe's, etc look more similar to native live oak in central which is probably Q. fusiformis. Not overly very large like the ones in Houston and eastward. Bur oak probably won't even get very large anyway because of the location (San Angelo probably doesn't get more than 30 inches of rain most years, maybe 15-25 inches). Not much rain that far west in Texas. It'd take 200 years before it gets too big if at all. It looks like there's plenty of room for bur oak that won't get huge like the ones in the east. Location, type of soil and climate ultimately will determine the growth and size.

It's rare for anyone to stay in the same house for that long time so I'd still give Texas white redbud chance only as ornamental tree or 'Fill in' space between permanent larger trees. No big deal if they don't live long as long as they're not to be used primarily shade tree. It's a nice tree.

Lou,
Most of the live oaks sold in this area are tagged as quercus virginia. If they look similar to native trees its because they are may be a mix of the two trees. Some say that once you leave the coast, all live oaks are a mix between the two. This is one of those topics that leave the experts at odds with one another. (sort of like the Texas Red Oak vs Shumard Oak debate). While the native live oaks are of the quercus fusiformis type, what most people plant are nursery grown live oaks tagged as quercus virginia and which are probably a hybrid between the two.

The Oaks shown in the plan for the front yard need to be replaced with large growing deciduous trees which do not drop acorns. Once the two front yard oaks get as large as the drawing indicates, their dropped acorns will be a mess on the curving front driveway.

Other than that, try to keep any alternate trees you choose in the same height and spread plan as the landscaper designed. It is clear from her plan that she chose trees with consideration of ultimately providing some wind break and direct radiant heat break for providing less harsh heat-up conditions in your southwestern, west ,and southeastern lawn and house footprint areas.

Terry, I may have to change my name to LiveOakSherry! :) I know they're overplanted in many places, but if you live in a hurricane zone, you can't beat 'em - only magnolia grandiflora holds up as well against high winds.
Sherry

I think lou and scotjute are both correct. A wide swath of the Live Oaks growing in East-Central Texas are intermediate between Quercus virginiana and Q. fusiformis. Once you get West of I-45 it becomes more and more pure Q. fusiformis. The native Live Oaks from the DFW area down to Waco are mostly Q. fusiformis with little influence(not zero influence though) of Q. virginiana evident in my opinion. Many of the nursery propagated Live Oaks in Texas are propagated from local Oaks and are hence somewhat intermediate just like the native trees, while some are imported in from growers further East and are hence mostly pure Q. virginiana as well as some of the named cultivars being propagated. While some are from growers further West and are hence Q. fusiformis. Q. fusiformis is much more drought and cold tolerant than Q. virginiana and should be readily available locally, especially from nurseries which propagate many of their own trees since it's native to the San Angelo area.

If my calculations are correct for the scale of the placement of the Bur Oaks out front, I don't think they're too close to the house. Sure in time they will become large enough to shade much of the area, but shade in San Angelo in the summer time doesn't sound too bad to me and might help out with the A/C bills quite a bit. They are very durable, strong wooded, long lived trees(some have been documented of being older than 400 years old) that shouldn't have any problems for about 200 years or so.

I also agree that the White cultivar of Oklahoma Redbud Cercis reniformis 'Texas White' is a good choice. Sure it won't live for a long time(for trees), but 20 to 30 years wouldn't be unexpected.

Kman,

You mean West of I-35? It goes from Austin to DFW while I-45 goes from DFW to Houston. At least I think that's what you meant.

I don't see anything wrong with Bur oak either. It will take many years to get that large esp in San Angelo where it doesn't rain very much. I have a bur oak that is 25 feet from my house and it grows right into caliche soil with solid bedrock somewhere beneath it so I'm not really expecting it to get huge like the ones in deep soil. The size is very dependent of weather, location and type of soil. Generally the further you go east, the larger it will be in shorter period of time.

blistful in Texas, The live oak trees are highly valued down in the Valley region of Southern Texas. That is due to the fact that very few majestic looking trees will grow there. Maybe your area of Texas can grow enough tall trees that it tends to devalue the Live oaks in the opinions of the locals there.

The backyard area seems large enough that the Live oak acorns, flowers, and leaf litter should not be a problem close to or within your naturalized area.

Why do you think the Shumard oak will grow well in the San Angelo area? the WG Tech Bulletin - Outstanding Trees for Texas does not agree with that opinion.

I realize that San Angelo does not seem to be very far southwest of Fort Worth, Texas; yet, the WG Tech people are most likely considering your average rain fall to be more similar to the farther west parts of Texas, which still sits near the same longitude as San Angelo.

The following is their list of the large trees (35' and above) suggested best for your area of Texas. (Your San Angelo, Texas location is considered be be within the WG Tech zone 6)

WG Tech -- best large trees in their zone 6 rating:

Bald cypress: Taxodium distichum
Bur oak: Quercus macrocarpa
Cedar elm: Ulmus crassifolia
Chinquapin oak: Quercus muhlenbergii
Deodar cedar: Cedrus deodora
Honey locust: Gleditsia triacanthos --choose a thornless cultivar
Lace bark elm: Ulmus parvifolia
Live oak:Quercus virginiana
Pecan: Carya illinoensis
Texas red oak: Quercus texana

lou,

Actually you start to see the influence of Q. fusiformis along the I-45 corridor in my opinion. I live not far from I-35 up here in Kansas and have traveled down to Austin many times(6th street was fun in my college days) along I-35 and along the stretch South of DFW down to Austin it is almost pure Q. fusiformis in my opinion.

Apparently Kevin Nixon(I believe he's the one that wrote much of the Quercus section of the flora of North America) agrees in that he says "Q . virginiana in typical form extends into Texas only as far west as the Brazos River drainage along the coast from there to the escarpment of the Edwards Plateau; most populations elsewhere are either intermediate between the two species or show greater affinity with Q . fusiformis ."

I'm not seeing the acorns as messy either. Sweet Gums, now those are awful, but I loved by oaks - planted a bur oak (Colleyville) and it's going to be an excellent tree. We just moved to Florida and will be planting several live oaks.

I completely agree that you should check out Native Texas Landscaping by Sally Wasowski. It's terrific and I love Howard Garrett's books too.

We use to live in San Angelo. I wouldn't plant pines either - stay native and you'll do great.

kc