I am going to use some of it at planting time under tomatoes,

Oh my dear - please, if you have reviewed even a few of the many discussions on manure here you know you should not be doing this. Weeds seeds are not the primary concern - pathogens are and almost every single discussion on manure discusses how it should not be used fresh and how it MUST be composted for a minimum of 4-6 months prior to use around food crops.

Manure is normally applied to the garden in the fall, not the spring. Manure is a green, not a brown. To compost it you must add carbon materials such as straw, cardboard, fall leaves, newspaper, etc. Even the wood chips, if that is all you have available and they are not also fresh, will help some but straw would be better.

And covering piles too has often been discussed and serves little purpose unless you live in an extremely wet environment. And has the added problem of sealing off air that is needed from the pile.

Please do not incorporate the fresh stuff in with your tomatoes and just mix in as much carbon brown materials you can with the piles and leave them alone. They will serve you well as soil amendments in the fall and even NEXT year.

Dave

Dave, have you been drinking the Einstein Kool-aid?

"it MUST be composted for a minimum of 4-6 months prior to use around food crops."

Any links to support that statement?

Lloyd

Hi Dotty

I'm not a gardener but I wouldn't use the untreated manure in a garden setting myself. If I could compost it to meet the guidelines for pathogen destruction, then I would be more comfortable.

Having said that, I might be persuaded to go with the NOP guidelines calling for incorporation into the soil and a 90 day restriction on no contact produce and the 120 day restriction on direct contact produce.

But as an extra precaution, I wouldn't use much of the untreated manure, maybe an inch or two incorporated to a depth of at least 6 inches and the soil temperature has to remain above freezing.

Personally, I would not grow a root crop until the following year but that's just me.

I'd also go for a non-manure mulch such as shredded straw to prevent any kind of splashing of the soil onto the above ground plant/produce.

As far as composting with wood chips, never done it. Manure is a nitrogen source and the wood chips would be a carbon and if one could mix them well enough it should work.

IIRC, somebody was talking about donkey and sheep manure but I can't remember who it was and if was somebody whose opinion I would trust. You may have to do some searching on that. This manure is different but I can't recall why.

Good luck

Lloyd

Einstein Kool Aid? Nope. Not needed. ;) Been tons of supporting documentation posted here over just this past year on the need for composting fresh manures when used in food production gardens. It's scattered heavily thoughout the 100's of discussions here on manure safety in the food garden.

I know you don't garden Lloyd but just for you: ;)

Washington State University: Composting Livestock Manures

Wait 120 days from the time of applying fresh manure to the time of harvest of high-risk crops (those where the edible part is in contact with the soil: such as root and leaf crops and strawberries) if those crops are not always cooked. Wait at least 90 days for other crops. If you apply manure within 60 days of harvest, use only aged (for at least a year) or hot-composted manure.

Analysis of Escherichia coli O157:H7 Survival in Ovine or Bovine Manure

Pretty self-explanatory on the e.coli survival rates.

University of MN: Risks of using manure as a garden fertilizer

For starters....

Dave

Dotty - check out this article from Alberta Agriculture and Rural Development

Composted Versus Stockpiled Manure; Different Processes ... Totally Different Results

The link below is for your reading pleasure Lloyd. Please keep in mind that composting for non-food use, which I know you are very knowledgeable about, and composting for use with food crop gardens, especially manured compost to be used in the food garden, don't follow the same set of safety guidelines. ;)

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Composting manure discussions..

I'm wondering if English is somehow different in the U.S. from Canada because I see nothing to support your "MUST" claim in any of those three links.

WSU site says pretty well what the NOP says and doesn't mention minimum compost times and in fact endorses the usage of hot composted manure within a 60 day window of harvest.

Analysis of e-coli site talks about survivability of e-coli in non-treated manures under various temperatures and time frames. In fact the words "compost" "vegetable" nor "garden" appear in that document anywhere.

The UMN site mainly complains that the 120 day guideline is not possible in MN with their short growing season and then gives a recommended work around, basically a fall application. They endorse properly composted or sterilized manure.

I do agree there have been many discussions about manure on the forum but I do not recall one where a credible source was cited (with a link) supporting your 4 - 6 month minimum claim. Would you be able to locate one for me please. And I'm talking credible, not Einstein repeating a mantra fifty times. I've asked for credible links in the past but alas, none were forthcoming.

The way I read them, the three you just gave don't really say what it is that you claim they say.

Lloyd

"composting for use with food crop gardens, especially manured compost to be used in the food garden, don't follow the same set of safety guidelines."

I am beginning to sense that there is a lot of fresh manure being bandied about here. I also suspect you meant "composted manure" versus "manured compost" but I could be wrong with the Canadian translation again.

Please show me a link to the "garden" guidelines you are referring to Dave.

I already gave the NOP and OTA guidelines in previous threads but would be more than happy to dig them up again.

Lloyd

The more I read, the more confused I become. In past years, I have put fresh manure into the planting hole for a tomato and the tomatoes have grown beautifully. Because the manure is under the soil, there is no contact with the tomato that you eat. And it takes several months after planting before harvest so therefore, the manure should be benign by then. Shouldn't it? I read the paper on stockpiled manure vs compost and that makes sense. It even says to use wood chips with the manure and I do have those readily available. I don't have access to straw. It's a regional thing -- in the west, we grow trees, prairies grow grain. So I guess we have to use what we have on hand. I don't mind buying some inputs for my manure/compost piles. And, thanks for the advice, I'll leave off the tarp. Thanks for all the replies, they all add pieces to the puzzle.

I'm wondering if English is somehow different in the U.S. from Canada...

I guess it MUST be. At least when it comes to understanding the written word. ;)

Does the word "contrary" exist in Canadian English?

Dave

I think so, would this be an example of how to use it? (Webster the Dog was sleeping so I couldn't ask him. LOL)

"Contrary to popular belief, a few people on this forum aren't very credible and tend to make stuff up on occasions."

Still awaiting any credible link to a 4 to 6 month composting time frame and safe garden guidelines you care to provide there Dave.

But hey, if you obfuscate another 3 or 4 weeks the weather will be nice enough up here that I won't be around to challenge any claims. :-)

Lloyd

You know, Dotty, if this is how you've always used your manure, and you want to keep using it that way, then I fully support you in it. I, for one, won't tell you that you "can't" garden as you have always done.

Yes, there are some pathogen risks with fresh manures. However, I think some people are probably more alarmist than they need to be. You should educate yourself on this topic, make your own decisions, and proceed with the course of action that you think is best.

I'm gonna guess there is some confusion about the difference between aging manure and composting manure :-) If manure is composted properly, there is NO danger of pathogens and it can be used freely for any purpose on any crop.

Dotty, there is some scientific evidence to support the contention that certain pathogens can be transmitted from the manure/soil to the plant and therefore can be systemic in any plant foliage or fruits/produce. Composting removes or eliminates these pathogens. There is also a much greater risk of nutrient overload from using most fresh manures, especially when they are applied in close contact to delicate feeder roots. It is your call how you wish to proceed with the fresh stuff but at least you know what the concerns are.

Which pathogens can be systemic IN any plant foliage? I had understood the only danger is if the pathogens are splashed on the crop then eaten. Can you provide a link to your scientific evidence? Inquiring mind would like to know.

Alfie posted this link in a previous thread.

Lettuce Plants Internalize Bacteria

Interesting read.

Lloyd

Any "weeds" that might be in that manure would be the least of any concerns I would have since today we know that there are many disease pathogens in all animal manures that can be transferred to the food we eat. All of the Ag schools today recommend that animal manures be aged 12 months before being applied to the food garden 90 to 120 days before harvest. Simply aging manure is a large waste of the nutrients in that manure so all animal manure should be properly composted before being applied to the food garden.
Given that in the last 25 years there have been many stories in the news about people getting ill, and even dying, after having eaten some food contaminated by one or another of these disease pathogens should be enough to give all of us caution about the careful use of manures.

I agree with just about everything said so far, even the contradictory stuff.

There is a lot of controversy over using fresh manure in a veggie garden. Since the Gardening Police will not come arrest you, it finally boils down to your personal preference. The rawest of raw sewage is in use as veggie fertilizer around the world every day. It is probably responsible for disease and even deaths, but if you look at the statistics, it is probably very rare. On the other hand, as gardengal said, proper compost has NO diseases associated with it.

Personally I would never use fresh manure anywhere in my garden. I occasionally collect horse manure, compost it for a year, and use it only on top of the soil.

"Contrary to popular belief, a few people on this forum aren't very credible and tend to make stuff up on occasions."

Assuming this was directed at me then my apologies Lloyd. I didn't realize you felt this way and mistakenly assumed that you were often joking.

While I readily admit that I am very conservative when it comes to food garden safety, I feel there is more than ample evidence available to support that conservative approach. Especially so when it comes to the use of manures in the food garden when so much of that food will be consumed by others.

If one distrusts or fails to grasp the many discussions and links posted here then they need only Google terms such as 'composting manure', 'manure safety in the home vegetable garden', 'using manure as a fertilizer', 'pathogen uptake in food crops', 'pathogens in manure', and similar terms. They can then draw their own conclusions.

I also readily admit that I am often very frustrated with infinitely repeated questions. That frustration sometimes comes across in my replies - sometimes intentionally. That may make the information offered less palatable but it doesn't make the information offered any less valid or "made up".

All any of us here can do is offer our own personal opinions. So yes, knowing others will disagree, IMO, for safe food production, one MUST actively compost any fresh manures for a minimum of 4-6 months. Further, there simply is NO justification for using freash manures of any kind in the home food garden. One need only note the # of days of survival of the various pathogens in composting manures (detailed in the info already linked) to see the basis for this position.

Of course, the reader always has the option of accepting or rejecting that information and choosing the level of risk, when risk is involved, that is acceptable to them.

None of us can legitimately claim to be certified authorities on the issues, but some of us, simply because of the years of experience with a particular topic and the degree of topic research done, can claim to be knowledgeable on that topic - whether others agree with us or not. ;)

Dave

The rawest of raw sewage is in use as veggie fertilizer around the world every day.

I lived in Korea as a kid 79-82, the smell was horrid when we first arrived, you get used to it though. They fertilize the rice paddies w/ honey buckets, taken directly from the hole in the floor that is the outhouse.

I myself won't be jumping on the humanure bandwagon any time soon, but I did get some aged horse manure that was very dark and added it to my cooking compost pile. After cooking it sat and aged for a few months and now fills my raised beds to 6''.

If the manure is fully composted, why in the world is it necessary to let it sit further for an additional 4-6 months? Pathogens are destroyed once compost achieves a temperature of 150F and that is maintained for several days - sitting for an extended length of time after it is finished achieves nothing further. And most pathogens that affect humans have a relatively short soil life even without composting.

Hi Dave

Allow me to clarify my position for you. If a person uses a "must", "shall", "never", "always" or any other such "absolute" terminology, I will often ask them to supply a link to support such information (usually politely), if they can't or won't, I will assume they made the information up and also assume any other information or advice they give/gave is suspect as well. Giving me a link to a search that results in six hundred and some odd threads isn't a link to support a claim, it's obfuscation IMO.

Trust is earned, respect is earned and some slack should be given until such time as a person has demonstrated to me that they are not credible nor reliable. This usually comes after repeated attempts to allow a person to quantify what they claim.

If a person wants to make stuff up and defend their POV with a "it's been posted many times in the past" kind of statement when it hasn't been, then IMO they are being untruthful and I can't do much about that.

If it is an opinion being expressed, then a poster should state it as such, and certainly not give a passing reference to a credible organisation in the same breath. Perhaps they ought to give a disclaimer that a given procedure is what they follow for whatever reason.

If a person is offended by being challenged, they ought not to make stuff up. Nothing personal, I just have trust issues with forums and inaccurate information being given out. (especially to new people)

I have been accused of being a curmudgeon, having half a brain, a baiter, a person to be ignored, a gas guzzler and a hijacker. None of these bother me, they are all true to some extent (especially the hijacker one). It's a public forum and as such, some friction is to be expected.

Like I said, nothing personal, I question lots of folks.

Lloyd

P.S. Sorry to Dotty for taking this waaayyyy off topic.

Just to complicate the subject of manure even further there is also the possibility that manures may have antibiotics in them as well.

Any opinions on this?

Here is a link that might be useful: antibiotics in manure

If the manure is fully composted, why in the world is it necessary to let it sit further for an additional 4-6 months?

gardengal - It isn't. But then we aren't talking about fully composted manure here per the OP:

manure pile, no bedding, just donkey and sheep poo that has accumulated over the winter

That isn't composted manure. And it sure isn't "fully composted manure".

You may wish to review the article linked above on the substantial differences between stockpiled or aged manure (and this isn't even all that old) and composted manures.

Lloyd - I fully understand your position, honestly. And for the most part I can agree with you about the validity of some info posted here. But posting here or on any message board is obviously nothing more than stating one's personal opinion unless verifiable credentials are attached to the post. That is the nature of message boards and requiring that one point out to the reader that "now this is just my personal opinion" is superfluous.

But challenge just for the joy of challenge serves little purpose and mere disagreement with statements made or even the manner in which they were made isn't grounds for labeling the other person "untruthful". Better yet to give them benefit of the doubt. Unless of course, you can provide documentation that they are in fact wrong. Or even to assume that perhaps, just perhaps, they are tired of posting in such copious detail the same information over and over and over again when it is so readily available to all with just a search.

And I did provide links above - once again - and can provide many more and have numerous times in previous posts. But you just sluffed them off.

This despite the fact that Analysis of Escherichia coli O157:H7 Survival in Ovine or Bovine Manure clearly states that E. coli O157:H7 survived in the manure for 21 months, and the concentrations of bacteria recovered ranged from

And A second E. coli O157:H7-positive ovine manure pile, which was periodically aerated by mixing, remained culture positive for 4 months. An E. coli O157:H7-positive bovine manure pile was culture positive for 47 days.

And The long-term survival of E. coli O157:H7 in manure emphasizes the need for appropriate farm waste management to curtail environmental spread of this bacterium.

I don't think I should have to do the math of converting the e.coli survival # of days to the equivalent number of months. ;)

And the U. of MN article linked above clearly states:

# If you plan to apply manure to your garden this year, use properly composted manure.
# Apply non-composted or fresh manure only in the fall of the preceding harvest year. Minnesota's winter weather will destroy pathogens that may be present in fresh manure.
# If you apply non-composted or fresh manure in the spring, make sure there are 4-6 months of time between fertilizing and harvesting or on soil used in growing late-season vegetables.

I find it fairly easy to extrapolate from those statements that

(1) all manure that goes into the garden should first be composted - not fresh, not just aged, but composted.

(2) that non-composted or fresh manure should only be applied to the garden in the fall. It can then at least age in place for an average of 4 months (the average length of winter) before planting.

(3) that if one insists on applying non-composted or fresh manure in the spring for some reason then there should be at least 4-6 months before harvest or it should only be used for fall crops.

From that point - my common sense tells me that if one merely composts (not ages but composts) their manure for a period of 4-6 months FIRST it can then be safely applied to the food garden at any time and that if one does not have a 6 month growing season between application and harvest, composting it first is even more sensible.

However, as has been pointed out by others, that period of 4-6 months may be too short a time, especially given that the e. coli can survive well over a year. And this doesn't even begin to address the issues of salmonella, viruses, cryptosporidium and giardia parasites, other bacteria, or the anitbiotics/hormones issues or the uptake of any of those things by the plants themselves. That is a whole other issue and yes, it has been discussed here before complete with citations for studies done.

Please understand that I am not in any way denying the benefits of using manure in the garden. As a life long farmer I have used it for over 50 years in my food gardens. I am merely advocating safe use of it and a method that imposes no great hardship to do so - compost it for 4-6 months before use.

Dave

Additional Resources:

UC Davis: Pathogens in Manure

UC Davis: Food Safety Tips for the Edible Home Garden

UC Davis: Planning for Postharvest Food Safety
During On-Farm Production

Addressing Animal Manure Management Issues for
Fresh Vegetable Production

Principles of Environmental Stewardship: Manure and Water Quality Concerns

Dave

Just so I do not misunderstand, the 4 to 6 month minimum that you stated manure MUST be composted for, is now solely your personal opinion?

Had you said that after post number 3 of this thread we could have saved a lot of time. It is difficult to tell when you are just stating your personal opinion because you have used the phrase "my personal opinion" in the past and this time you didn't. You might deem it superfluous, but a distinction would help, especially when using such authoritative verbiage.

And by the way, I read the links you provided on this thread except for the ATTRA one as that was just a link to a home page. Interesting links, all of them.

Lloyd

I was just looking on Craigslist for free manure and just emailed a local dairy farmer inquiring about his manure. I also found a listing for free horse manure so this topic interests me. My plan is to compost the manure anyway, but now I might let it compost even more.
As a home veggie gardener and novice composter I'll choose to be cautious. Perhaps, since many home gardeners are novices at using and composting manure, warnings of possible harm are emphasized.

It seems that much danger can be avoided by just thoroughly washing fruits and veggies. The actual contaiminents are not in the fruits, but on the surface, right?
I'm sure some pretty nasty and harmful stuff has come into existence in my compost pile when I added too much greens to it and it was not really hot. With time though and the pile getting hotter, these were killed off, I think(at least the smell got better). I wonder how many people spread compost onto their gardens that is full of pathogens?

Pete

Pete,
Hit page up about 10 or 11 times to Lloyd's post earlier in the day.

gardengal, where is it suggested that, "If the manure is fully composted, why in the world is it necessary to let it sit further for an additional 4-6 months." ?
Dave stated that manure must be composted for 4 to 6 months before being applied to the garden, but I see nothng about that compost needing to be "aged" longer. I ma not sure that you need to compost manure that long as long as your properly compost that manure and when that compost is done it can then be applied to the garden. I have seen some here, as well as a few frequently quoted garden writers, state that compost needs to be "aged" before going into the garden, but I have frequently stated here that is nonsense.
There are very good reasons to not apply fresh manures to your garden, and there have been many news stories about why that should not be done, but even the Ag Schools and the CDC do not state, emphatically, that manure cannot be put on the garden they simply recommend that fresh manure not be put on unless it has been aged a minimum of 12 months. Yes, some old web sites (prior to 2008) can be found that will still say that "fresh manure should not be put on your food garden sooner than 120 days to harvest" but these same places will have newer posting that state that 12 months is the minimum. Since the number of people that have been exposed to disease pathogens, and gotten sick enough to be reported to the CDC and get reported in the news, has been increasing exponentially in the last 25 years, common sense should tell us all that we should not apply fresh manure to our gardens. You can adopt the industry standard of risk/benefit and determine that your chance of getting ill from a disease pathogen manure is 1 in 100,000,000 and say that is acceptable, until you are that 1 person. If you have never had a disease from one of these pathogens well and good and I can tell you that you do not want one, and you certainly do not want to expose family members, unnecessarily, to them. Because few people make the link, or even get sick enough so they need to see a doctor, the CDC can estimate that there are 10 people getting sick from manure borne pathogens for every case that is reported to them and then gets in the news.

Seems to be an awful lot of extrapolating going on here :-) I've read most of the articles and research papers on using manures at various times researching various issues and I don't have any disagreement with the concept of properly composting most manures before use. However, if one goes back and rereads those papers, none of them state the manure must be composted for at least 4-6 months, only that it be fully composted and with that, the assumption that it has achieved proper pathogen-destroying temperatures - the term most often used is "hot composted". Even the U of Minn extension paper refers to that time frame as it applies to fresh or non-composted manures, not composted material. The same with NOP.

If you can properly compost the manure - heat it up to at least 150F and maintain that temperature for a minimum of 3 days then allow it to cool down to finished levels - however long that process takes is all the time that is necessary before applying it to edible planting beds. It could very well be 4-6 months under some conditions - it could just as easily be 4-6 weeks under ideal conditions. The key is the composting process itself, not the specific amount of time.

Is it any wonder that the OP is, "confused by all of the discussion about fresh manure here."

However, if one goes back and rereads those papers, none of them state the manure must be composted for at least 4-6 months...

No but several of them do say 120 days minimum. Last I heard 120 days = 4 months.

And yes, if one believes that all gardeners properly hot compost their manure, fine. UC Davis points out that more time is needed specifically because the average home composter does NOT do that.

And if one chooses to totally disregard

(1) the studies on how long e. coli survives in even hot composting experiments and

(2) how long a period of time of hot composting those studies show it takes before the level of surviving e. coli begins to decline, and

(3) how long those studies show that plants will still absorb any antibiotics, herbicides, or hormones in tha manure,

then yes, you are free to use it whenever you wish.

So yes Lloyd, to answer your question, if one chooses to disregard all that and to ignore the recommendations of respected AG university researchers, then it is all just my personal opinion.

Now, that said, I would like to see some linked scientific research that supports the position of those who insist that

(1) using fresh manure or
(2) using animal manures that have been "collected over the winter" or
(3) using "stockpiled" or "aged" manures or
(4) using manure "composted by the average home composter"

is safe to use in the vegetable garden. Got any anyone?

Dave

Dave, Dave, Dave. (shaking my head) I give up, uncle.

I offered a piece of advice to Einstein a while ago and it seems apropos now as well. One of the first steps for getting out of a hole is to stop digging.

Lloyd

Don't want to add more fuel to this "discussion" but wonder if there has been a study done to show how long e. coli survives when tilled into soil. I've thought of tilling in relatively fresh horse manure in my new garden but would not use it for edible plants for a year. I thought it might provide a good start on the OM in that hard clay soil and help the worms increase in numbers. As it is there's old horse manure all over that soil but it's a few years since we let them "mow" the grass and weeds in that area so I expect the e. coli have not survived.

digdirt and pt03,

Please take a moment to think about what you're doing here. You guys seem to have only slightly differing opinions. Why does it seem like you're trying to solve the problems of the world? This is a forum of amateurs trying to help other amateurs. Please allow for the occasional slip of the keyboard and allow for differences of opinion. The entire argument, which has consumed quite a bit of yours, our our, emotional resources, is over the use of the word, MUST. pt03, all you had to say was, "I agree with digdirt except for the word, MUST." And then you could have explained your slightly different version. The OP did not ask for a scientifically proof. She asked whether she should cover her pile with a tarp. I believe whether the rest of her assumptions were on target is a matter of opinion because the science (and opinion) is all over the map on this one. Hence her original confusion.

And by the way, you don't have to look very hard to find examples where I have participated in similar discussions. I'm not so much the pot calling the kettle black as I am the voice of experience trying to atone for my misbehavior. If gardengal agrees, please feel free to step in and moderate my next outburst with her :-)

I just spent about ten to fifteen minutes reading this argument between Dave and Lloyd.

Lloyd, you asked Dave for links to support his position and although I find some credibility issues with what he's saying, he still gave those links and rebuttled his opinion. Then Dave asked for links about using fresh manure, aged manure, etc. and you "gave up." I'm thinking that he was directing that question to you, mainly because of your insistance of him supporting his POV. I know you never said how you feel on the subject but I would like to know how you do stand. And if you have links that would be great too.

I'm not one for looking up links, heck, I have no clue what obfuscate means but I'm too tired right now to go running for my dictionary.

Not trying to start anything here... just want some closure.

I didn't realize it until dchall said it; the two kids agree that fresh manure should not be used. It is a shame that someone can not ask a question without getting her hand slapped. I think that may be what really started this "discussion".

Hi Grateful,

"I know you never said how you feel on the subject"

If you were to look up, way up, to post #4 (my reply to Dotty) you will, in fact, see how I feel about manure.

If you would like the NOP or OTA links that I offered up thread as well, they are in this thread.

If you would like to see other conversations where incorrect, unsubstantiated information was given out, here is a good one that just happened recently. (regarding thatch).

And if I may I'd like to quote another poster (deerslayer) because I am not able to say it any clearer than he put it.

"As I said earlier, my issue is larger than the safety of Milorganite. It's about presenting honest information. I believe that the frequent posters on any forum have a responsibility to be as factual as possible...no spin and no omitted relevant facts. When I give an opinion, I always try to label it as such if I think it may be interpreted as something other than an opinion."

I hope that provides the closure you needed, if not, I can talk some more, obviously I am not shy. :-)

Lloyd

P.S. Obfuscate: to be evasive, unclear, or confusing.