Ask him which fungicides he uses.
There is something about the 1800s yellows/light apricots/buffs that is (IMO) a weakness that is exacerbated by climate.
Remember the years it took me to get growth on Peter Beales Version of Parks Yellow Tea Scented China?
The weakness on that one was cane damage and not with just one kind of canker (just based on the fungal expression as symptoms).
I've never gotten Jaune Desprez to be a large bush, but it will live for me.
And I have a Duchesse d'Auerstadt that doesn't die, but is nowhere the plant one of its genetic twins is in better soil and a half zone warmer and 200'lower 18 miles away.
The rose August Halem will survive, but not vigorously.

I wonder if our Crepuscles could have an inherent propensity to a bad reaction to overwintering fungi. Not all fungi can be knocked down by all fungicides and we don't have much of an arsenal of systemic fungicides.
I know some folks locally who are high tech wine grape growers and they have a large arsenal of fungicides. Not that I would ever use anything on a rose that wasn't approved for roses, but I also have grape vines in pots that need spraying.

I wish research were going into understanding how to make roses stronger, and that the genetic research were more grounded in real life needs.

I sure will ask him, Ann. There was some reason and I cannot recall what but he neither grows nor sells it. He said he had many people asking for it, but...and I cannot remember the "but" part. I am anxious to know now that I have failed with more than one and they are not youngsters but huge monsters.

They're heat lovers, those yaller Tea-Noisettes.

None of them grow all that well here, near the CA Coast -- tho the same roses do very well a few miles inland, where it is both drier and warmer.
Kim Rupert told me this long ago, and he is right.
I have stubbornly ploughed ahead and tried to grow them, but of all of them, only Reve d'Or thrives here.
Duchesse d'Auerstadt is an upright Shrub. Mind, it's not at all a bad-looking upright Shrub, but it's nothing like the same rose in the Heritage -- a lusty climber.
Crepuscule -- I give up.
I've tried 3 times. I'd like to try it budded on something like Fortuniana.
My 3rd attempt at Jaune Desprez is a two-cane wonder with few leaves and no blooms. It is doomed. When Clay gets a Setzer Noisette ready, it's going into that spot. I can't argue with him on that.

Back in the 19th-Century, even, it was generally acknowledged that, to thrive, Marechale Niel needed to be budded.

Jeri

Jeri,
Even before Google put so many books on line, as I read through the ones I bought, I started laughing at the Marechal Niel problems. (They never came out and said it should be grown as an annual ...a la Color Magic's comments) Almost every book had a "do this" re Marechal Niel.

I've heard Leonie Bell had a stronger Jaune Desprez but I keep forgetting to get cuttings.

How do Hot and Dry fit into France in the 1800s? Even with glass houses, it could not have been that easy to create a hot and dry situation.

I'll try to bring pictures of both my Duchesse d'Auerstadt as well as the one in great soil next to a four lane highway and the river.

Patricia...ask him if he thinks the problem could be systemic and untouched by surface treatments and almost untouched by systemics.

I'm going to have to worry with fungi on rose canes with a microscope...I think the local ag campus may be working on some of the different races of Black Spot.

How do Hot and Dry fit into France in the 1800s? Even with glass houses, it could not have been that easy to create a hot and dry situation.

*** South of France?
And I bet they were budded, at that.

I think the local ag campus may be working on some of the different races of Black Spot.

*** Now that's something even I would like to know more about.

Jeri

Now I understand why I've had no luck with Crepuscule. I've tried two. The first didn't survive. The second hasn't thrived. I also had Duchesse d'Auerstadt that didn't make it. My Marechal Niel blooms rarely open. I love these colors! How sad.

Pat, I'm going there again tomorrow. Which lavender did you buy? I bought a lavender dentata that is really pretty but am thinking I may grow it in a pot...

I love that big ole tuscan blue rosemary plant he has out there. I hope the one I got gets as big as his.

Patricia, my Crepescule has done well here in a 5 gallon pot for over 5 years (still waiting for that addition to the garden). So I'm thinking it can't be the cold as we get our share here. Many yellows are more tender here but this has not been one of them. A friend also grows it near me with no problems and she is spotty at best about spraying. Mine does get sprayed a bit more than hers.

Maréchal Niel is also thriving after a slow start. I'd be interested in the rest of the responses as I'd hate to lose any of them after all this time. Jaune Desprez is over 18' fountaining over a wagon wheel pole. The only one I'm having a problem with is William Allen Richardson..really slow to get going after 2 years (may be too much shade in that location).

The other roses I'm having a problem with are yellows..but moderns. One Easy Going out of 3 is dying back for some unknown reason.

But remember -- in a hotter, drier climate, Crepsuscule looks like this:

{{gwi:250141}}

Jeri

Kaye's on top of a mountain. Great drainage in a pot and I'd guess it's a black pot so would be hotter roots than if it were in the ground.

One of the Marechal Niel "how to" required that we have a green house, and that our MN be grafted. The rest is kind of wierd...remember they were going for flower production... plant the roots outdoors, right next to the greenhouse and then train the MN part of the plant to go through the greenhouse wall and keep MN totally inside the greenhouse. (I would also suggest that the roots right next to the base of a greenhouse might be getting more calcium from the cement foundation of the greenhouse than otherwise.)

San Jose: redefines sandy soil.

Gean, LOL. I told my husband today that we would have to take some of the lavender with us since I lost the name and we bought several kinds, some of which did not do well.

Ann, I do believe this is going to turn out to be fungus and Jason does not spray for fungus. Nothing he has gets sprayed so it might be that is the reason he does not grow Crep but I am going to ask. Gean, I wish I could tell you which lavender. See, I am like a dog who hides a bone and cannot remember where she hid it.

I had 5 Crepuscules that looked like the one in that picture, Jeri, until last year and I was down to 3 and now I am down to maybe 1 but doubtful that it is going to make it. Looks sick.

Kaye, I am going to think it is fungus. You are a whole zone colder than I am. It is strange that the noisettes that I thought I had lost (or did for a season) are returning except for Crepuscules and the ones I lost last year are not returning and the ones that were fine last year are looking like they are goners.

Kaye, I lost my Easy Going plants, the whole bed, but it had something to do with digging them up when my house was flooded. :-) You know I live on a hill so don't ask how my house got flooded except the water came down so fast and the soil was so dry and someway it got up under the slab and I had a flooded house and snow on the ground. It was an amazingly maddening 2 weeks until we got the walls and floors dry, the fans out and the floors pulled and put back down again.

San Jose: redefines sandy soil.

*** Actually, where that garden is, it re-defines cr*ppy soil. A lot of it is fill stuff, and they're on recycled water, I think. Tough conditions.

I've read that business about planting the roots outdoors myself. I just can't imagine!
BUT Roses like Marechal Niel and Chromatella were grown in Southern CA -- I've read descriptions of them used around some of the old Rancho Period Adobes. All gone now, of course.
And the one place where they might have survived either didn't have them (tho we have a great description) or they have been lost long ago.
I'd bet on lost. Though I have seen what was identified as Chromatella, in a Gold Rush Era cemetery in the Sierra Foothills.

Jeri

Pat, I looked and noticed that he doesn't sell any yellow tea noisettes except for Reve d'Or. He does sell Lamarque.

Other things I wonder about when I go there:

1. why does he say he can keep Cramoisi to a 2 foot hedge and how does he do that?
2. how does he keep Reve d'Or pruned to 1/2 of an 8 foot trellis with a big ole Zeffy on the other side?

One day I will go take a tent and live there and find out his secrets.

Gean, are you on your way to Petals from the Past? Amazing, and I wonder the same as you how he keeps his teas so compact and blooming constantly, his Reve d'Or is gorgeous on that trellis and it never gets big and out-of-control like mine. His MAC is the most beautiful huge blooming fool I have ever seen and mine rarely blooms when I let it get that big. It is now a bush and blooms well but before, nope, not much bloom and you notice his teas don't look like women who went to a church picnic and ate too much fried chicken after consuming a whole coconut cake. They are just reasonaly sized and look more like the size of a nice HT instead of big old buxomy broads. I did see his MRs BR Cant pruned one spring (not sure by accident, i.e., storm, or intentional as in demonstrating pruning to customers) down to a fare-thee-well of about 18 inches and within a 4-6 weeks, it was just beautiful, just perfect and it did not seem as though his roses need pruning or that they have just been pruned (for the most part). They are all just perfect. Same way with clematis and he pays no attention to what class they are. He says they all die back in winter and when they start coming out, he trims them up nicely to what he wants. I just don't know. I can't get that in my garden. Maybe I need a staff.

FWIW, I grow both Marechal Niel and Crepuscule. Crepuscule is very vigorous and grows up a pole of the 12 foot pergola and has spread over to the center of it to compete with Secret Garden Musk Climber. It is a terrific climber, scented and care free. Marechal Niel is currently blooming with hundreds of blossoms which look absolutely terrific so long as you keep a respectiful distance. Unfortunately, the plant (spread on a lattice) is pit bull ugly with grey bark and almost no foliage. The rest of the year it is hidden by Cl Winnie Coulter and that is just as well.

I should point out the the climate is, although technically like that of inland Santa Barbara, tends to be drier than the coast with occasional influences from the Santa Monica bay area through the Sepulveda pass. We do get spring blackspot; otherwise we rarely get enough humidity to support that fungus. Neither rose gets much in the way of care except for a yearly dose of timed release fertilizer.

JimD

"Unfortunately, the plant (spread on a lattice) is pit bull ugly with grey bark and almost no foliage...."

But it's not supposed to be. Mine was not for many years and now it is. That's not the way this plant started out. It started out being foliated constantly except in the coldest of weather and now it has become a leafless, lifeless hulk.

Ann, I gave Jean a MN because it was already showing enough vigor that I didn't think I had room for it in my garden, the last I heard, she said it was a huge, thorny beast in her garden in Tennessee.

Carol

Carol, I am being a buttinsky here, as I know you were talking to Ann, but was that a budded MN or own root? I had a friend who sent cuttings of MN to a rose place that buds but I never heard from them, so I guess it did not work out. I would HAVE LOVED to have a MN but I would want a budded one since I hear the vigor is lackluster without it. I have no idea WTH happened to my Crep's. They were beautiful foliated, green lovely, apricot laden plants two years ago. Three of the 5 were budded plants that I got from Paul a few years ago, when he was still using R. Mf for grafting. Oh, well. I guess it was not meant for me to grow with any degree of success, dogwoods, Yoshinos, kwanzans or yellow flowers without some bug spray or fungicide.

Pat, it was an ownroot rose from Chamblees and it took off growing like a wild thing. When Jean was here I gave it to her since she has more room. That was the year we had the workshop at Ashdown and it has done well in her garden so far. I have no idea how it fared through the crazy cold weather we've had this winter though. I am tempted to order another and put it on the obelisk where SGMC was :-)

Carol

I have never seen sandy soil anywhere in the Bay Area except very near the ocean beaches. Most places it's heavy clay!

Now, Morro Bay and Los Osos -- those redefine sandy soil. I used to go out and weed my auntie's garden there just because it was comparatively so easy to pull out anything at all. (Sick, I know.)

-Greta

**Greta said: I used to go out and weed my auntie's garden there just because it was comparatively so easy to pull out anything at all. (Sick, I know.)

Greta, this is not sick. This is normal behavior.

Sick people bulldoze trees and grass and don't plant roses. Remember this.

Patricia, how old were your Creps that are gone? Maybe longevity isn't their thing. Maybe there's something in the soil (like nematodes here) that its roots are sensitive to. What kind of soil do you have? I know Multiflora rootstock is terrible in Florida's soil. Doesn't last long at all. But that's probably not the case in Alabama. When you remove your latest lost Crep, try examining the roots.

Sherry

My Crep has a lot of winterkill this year. I'm dreading pruning it to find out just how bad. I suspect most of the plant is gone. I have two other Noisettes being treated as climbers, Blush Noisette and Alister Stella Gray, that sailed through the winter with minimal die off. BN and ASG have been in the ground 4-5 years. Crepuscule has been there two years and had put on a lot of growth. I was really looking forward to seeing it leap this year. Makes me wonder if this is just a less cold tolerant rose. We had 18" of snow in Dec/Jan.

I would say my Crepuscule plants (some were about 7-8 years old) and others were 3-4 years old). I don't know how long Trish has been at Ashdown but she was not there when I got the first 3 and she was there when I got the last one but she had just come there. One I got from Pickering. See, that is what is strange, different ages, different nurseries and some grafted, some not. They all sailed through the Easter freeze of 2007 and started dying in spring of last year and though 2 started leafing out this year that were unscathed last year, these seem to be dying now.

LindyB, we had a very hard freeze and snow on Christmas a few years ago and my Crepuscules did fine but I lost a lot of other things because I had not mulched as I was not preparing for such a hard freeze with snow-turned-ice so early on. I think it was a combination of the drought for so many years, not practicing good antifungal surveillance, all of which weakened the plants and perhaps they are not as hardy as the good old faithful pinks of OGRs.

Could it be voles? What kind of fungus would kill entire big plants suddenly? Did the leaves look bad before the plants died? What kind of fungus is systemic and doesn't mainly live on the leaves? If it's a systemic fungus then it must be contagious to kill several of your plants. I wonder why it wouldn't be killing all of them. That could be as bad a scourge as RRD.
Linda

This is how I lost my Crepuscule. It was fine for three years and then when it was already big plant and beautiful it didn't woke up after one winter, which was not even particularly cold. I blamed my zone for this loss, but could be it was something else.
Olga

Perhaps Alphonse de Lamartine was not referring to a season atall whence he referred in poetry. Had one of his many amorous subjects been the owner of a garden containing the lovely noisette, Crepuscule.

Le crepuscule encor jette un dernier rayon

(The crepuscule encor threw its last ray).

I am coming out of lurkdom here because I attended Jason's rose class last year and saved the handout. Here is why his roses are so compact: "The pruning of Old Garden Roses is far different from that of the modern hybrid tea. Removal of all dead canes and clippings no more than 1/3 of the remaining bush is a good rule to use. This encourages full foliage, and heavy bloom without destroying the vigor and natural form of the plant....varieties which are everblooming can be lightly trimmed or 'tip-pruned' several times a year to encourage the new growth on which they flower. Once-blooming varieties should be pruned after they bloom."

My notes:
"Hard prune after first bloom. This is when Japanese beetles come and this way you avoid being troubled by them."

"Climbers cut side branches 6-8". Side branches trim 8-12" Don't reduce # of canes."

"Shrub roses reduce height 1/2 to 1/3 and make dome shape. Don't thin."

I was at Petals from the Past yesterday and inspected his roses and they were beginning to bloom and were a mannerly size. I remember he had some growing up poles and he demonstrated to the class how he would prune them in the spring so they would grow up the pole in a demure way.

I hope this helps and does not confuse anyone. Petals does have a web site and they are very wonderful about answering emails too :-)
Sharon

Sharong, good to have you here. I hope you are liking our weather in Alabama, but not sure about our insects and humidity.

You are right about Jason's pruning methods. I have attended several of Jason's rose pruning classes and his method is very similar to, if not identical to, the demonstrations that David Stone gave at Ashdown which some of us attended 2-3 years ago. I just don't have the staff to keep mine looking like thatm and sometimes when I prune it's too late or too early. I think discipline is the ingredient missing in my pruning. :-)

Please DON'T BE A STRANGER here.

It is so good that you are participating. Please, please become a frequent responder. We are delighted to have you.

Oh, I am touched! Thank you! I do not have many roses (20?) and this is their 2nd or 3rd season. I moved here from NC where I had many many roses. I surely miss them. We do not plan on living in this house too long, so do not see the reason to expand the garden from what it is now, but am looking forward to our next house where I can have a bigger rose garden. I have learned a lot from reading everyone's posts and thank you again for the kind words.
Sharon

The Crepuscule Jeri pictured is budded. My fairly vigorous plant is budded, from Tom L1ggett. Own root, I'm on my second attempt, and it is a weakling. I believe that it needs to be budded to be reasonably vigorous. Or, the people with the telephone pole climbing clones need to spread them around. Mine is clearly not that one. It could also be badly virused and needs a rootstock to push growth.

My two Juan Desprez are huge own root, as big as the shed. The other yellow Tea Noisettes won't grow no matter how hard I try. I am growing out some Manetti and will try budding them if I can find 10 minutes this summer.

Sharong, we need to get you a pot ghetto going for your new place. I am supposing you have chosen very well the roses you are now growing.

Please keep us posted on progress of the roses and the new up and coming home.

Cass, I am wondering if the grafts "gave out" on mine and that is the reason for the sudden decline. What are your thoughts or those of others. Mine were as big as the ones pictured by Jeri.

Well I have just one rose in a pot right now--Evelyn, which got beheaded last year when the shovel fell on her. She totally has recovered, albeit very slowly and is ready to be planted. We've had so much rain that I have not had the chance to do that yet. The roses I have are MAC (2), Lamarque, ZD, Sea Foam (on an embankment), Mystic Beauty, Heritage, Old Grey's Cemetery, Safrano, Sombriel, Graham Thomas, Duchesse de Brabant, Mutablis, Desprez a Fleur Jaune (3), June Anne, and Quietness (4), and of course Evelyn, which I have a love-hate relationship with. My roses are looking sort of pitiful because we had a frost this week. Also, I apologize for hijacking this thread. And I have not thought of a pot ghetto!
Sharon

The Crepuscule Jeri pictured is budded.

*** That's an excellent point.
I really think I might get Crepuscule to grow for me, budded.

OTOH, my Duchess de Auerstadt is a budded plant from that same San Jose nursery you mentioned -- and it STILL doesn't have enough energy to grow over a scant 4 ft.

My two Juan Desprez are huge own root, as big as the shed.

*** After 2 years, our Jaune Desprez has grown to the top of an arbor, but it STILL has only two thin canes, few leaves, and ONE bud.
That's the only bud it has produced, to date.
Clay's ready to shovel prune it and replace it with a Setzer Noisette, to match the one on the other side.

Jeri

BTW, isn't it a little silly (and annoying) for this List to block any post including the name of that former San Jose nurseryman? The person in question hasn't been on this List for years, and the nursery is long-closed.