Never used one but have looked at them. Northern tools has some entry level ones, see the link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Northern tools PTO generators

Generally they say you need about twice the horsepower as the output of the generator. A 5000 watt generator needs about 10hp. This curve changes slightly as you go up. A 20,000 watt generator needs about 37.5hp rather than 40hp. One thing to keep in mind is the amount of time that you might use a generator as compared to fuel usage. If power will be out for days or weeks then your fuel usage could get to be enormous. Also keep in mind the fact that to actually use a generator on house wiring you will need a transfer switch which can be quite involved and expensive.

"Also keep in mind the fact that to actually use a generator on house wiring you will need a transfer switch which can be quite involved and expensive."

Not true, All you HAVE to do is to flip the mains and hook it up to a 220v outlet, use your dryer. I live in ice storm country been there done that for 14 days straight. But be carefull, some generators do not put out very even power and can fry electrical bits. You get what you pay for.

I would also say I would look at a regular generator or a entire house setup. Fuel will be crazy running a tractor to run a PTO gen. I am saving up for a propane gen. don't think that is a solution for you with the high winds you deal with. Until then I run on a 5000w. gas gen. It will run for about 12hrs on a tank and will run everythig but my stove...and dryer. Just remember to flip the mains.

I do not have a lot of experience on this topic. But I understand you can get yourself into some BIG trouble doing this (flipping the mains off/on) and possibly not live to talk about it ...

A while back someone did something like this in our area and forgot to flip off the main... This resulted in KILLING 2 electrical workers who were sent out to mend the broken wires at the pole... The home owner was charged with something like a "double homicide".

If the guy spent a few extra dollars on a properly configured electrical circuit - he wouldn't have to carry the weight of 2 dead men on his shoulders. (thats a lot to live with - in my opinion).

This is just coming from someone who really does not understand electrical circuits well. Be careful with what you do friend - I recommend calling a few electrical contractors for a "professionals opinion" on this matter.

yep, around here if the POCO catches you backfeeding a genny into your house they will remove teh meter and not reinstall it until you can prove you have a LEGAL transfer switch.

while you may have enough sense to flip the mains first, many people who read these and other forums have no clue what the main breaker is. neveer recommend somethign as dangerous and flat out illegal as this!

BTW, i had a good friend get killed because of a jack ass that ALWAYS turned off his main before running his genny. problem was, he was turning off the breaker to the stove, not the panel main.

How? If the mains are off your pannel is not getting elect. from the grid, The connection is broken at the box.

Now if said person left the mains ON and pluged in a gen, then he would try to run the entire downed section off his generator....he becomes the power station. That could do what you talked about.

But if the Mains are off at your box, and your box is hooked up correctly there is NO DANGER OF KILLING ANYONE, there is no way for the power to move outside of your house.

Infact I ran my house this way before the power company got the trench dug for power to my house. They even used my generator to run their power tools, came in to the AC house, and had some ice water from the running fridge (They KNEW what I was doing). It would seem to me that if there was an issue in doing this the technicians that WORK FOR THE POWER COMPANY would have said something about it.

I think you might need to recheck the facts on your story.

Flipping the mains is no different the flipping a breaker, and no more dangerous. Just like there is no chance of electruction if you flip a breaker to a room to put in a new light, the breaker kills all power to that area of the house, the main kills ALL power from the grid to your house.

Now by all means if you do not know what you are doing DON'T MESS WITH THIS STUFF. Don't take anything you read on the internet for fact. This stuff will KILL you. But if you know how to wire up a new addition to your house this is cake.

Which ever way I go, PTO or automatic stand-by generator, I do plan on spending the $500 to $1000 for the transfer switch. This will be new construction so it makes sense to wire it correctly from the start.

The PTO generator makes sense in one way, in that if I use my tractor weekly, I always know it's ready ....and I can take it all over my property for other projects. I know those stand-by generators test themselves regularly but a large one that can handle 1/2 a house is very expensive.

I still have alot of research to do. Thank you for the replys.

Hi Cherokee. I understand what you are saying about flipping the main breaker. Here's my take on it.

In a factory, you have a lock-out/tag-out procedure. When you are going to work on a machine or do anything electrical, you find the circuit, shut the breaker, then lock it with a padlock and tag the breaker so everyone knows you are working. You need the key to flip the breaker back on. Great, safe system, one of the safety laws that really makes sense and saves lives.

I view your home setup the same way. The electrician on the line is not in view of your breaker panel. He's relying on your knowledge and diligence in turning off your breaker. If in the course of 20 years of generator use you forget, or in a more likely case a friend or relative happens to be at your house during the power outage, knows you have the generator, and starts it up without flipping the breaker, the lineman gets belted.

I pull the key out of the ignition when I'm working on my tractor or boat or car. I unplug an appliance before I work on it. I'm not going to rely on flipping a switch to protect a guy working on the electic lines, I want a clean, fail-safe transfer switch before I run a generator at the house.

Cherokee, you are allowed to use a generator in the manner you did on your "new and under construction" project BEFORE the building is connected to the public utility power grid. After the "service drop" or "service lateral" is connected to the building, you are no longer allowed to energize the building wiring from any other source without an approved transfer switch to ensure that the two power sources are never connected simultaneously. The reason for this is (as 2 other posters cited) because not having a means of separating the power sources has led to MANY deaths of electrical utility workers in the past (not just the 3 cited here). Click the link (everybody) and read what Cornell University says on the subject. Please note the part about how power "back fed" into the public power grid passes backward through the transformer and becomes 2,300 VAC (instead of the 230VAC output from the generator).

Here is a link that might be useful: Generators

This is all news to me, in our last ice storm ~02 or so, when the linemen where out they came into my house (without power) and had hot coffee. They could hear the generator running, see the cord running into the house to the dryer outlet. They said nothing. I would doubt that they would not have lambasted me on what I was doing.

Not picking a fight, but I have had "power company" people in my house twice when the thing was running and they have said nothing.

Where I live there are no building codes, no permits, no nothing. This is the way it is when you live in a rural area. Don't know if that has anything to do with it. Neighbors on both sides and behind me do the same thing. One has now gone to a propane setup just because it is so easy, We loose power about once a month for anywhere between 15min to a couple of hours. He got tired of starting the gen by hand. He had an elderly person living there that needed some kind of breathing machine so he had to have power.

The automaic systems are so nice don't have to mess with fuel, just runs of the already there propane tank. Makes me want to get one hearing his running when I am sitting in the dark.

I put a 35 kw automatic natural gas generator in last year. I needed the unit to support a computer server business in my house. It tests itself once a week, it's very quiet and the few times it came on were very comforting. The unit powers every thing, including central air. Once you decide to put one in, the extra cost of a big one is minimal

Just my thoughts Chuck

"I do plan on spending the $500 to $1000 for the transfer switch."

Good thinking.

Walt Conner

Being rural is no reason to be stubborn and repeat ignorance instead of listening to knowledge and applying it. Nor for doing something that can kill an innocent working man.

Daveo1 made good explanation fo why commn sense and decency should prevent not using a TS in an "on the grid" house using a backup generator.

Granny was poor and proud, but they used at TS at then ranch!

Anyone with some common electrical sense can safely backfeed their gen. What's with the "you'll kill a lineman" chicken little type. They are the type that cry you'll burn down your house if you burn pine. More people will die from sheer boredom of reading my post, than all lineman from home generators. Any lineman STUPID enough to work on the lines with bare hands got what he deserved! Anyone working on electrical lines in industry ALWAYS must assume live wires! What a fool a profesional lineman would have to be to leave his gloves off because he can "trust" a neighborhood of homeowners he don't even know. What a bunch of crap. Secondly, unless you were the only house, your little 5k gen would trip it's breaker or the feed breaker, trying to power the whole neighborhood, long before the lineman got there. Third, during a reconnect, the generator would be out of phase with the line. This would immediatly trip the gen breaker, or the nearest breaker, if not the main breaker.

If you had read all there is available to read in this thread (including the links) you would have learned the part about how the 230/240 VAC becomes 2,300 or 2,400 VAC after passing backward through a 10 to 1 transformer. The gloves that you would have your lineman wear are no guaranteed protection against voltage levels of that (or greater) magnitude. Besides, it is plainly a violation of the National Electrical Code and your state law to connect a generator to a wiring system that is also connected to a public power grid without an approved transfer switch to prevent the 2 systems from being interconnected. Save all your derogatory remarks and comments for the next time you gaze lovingly into that mirror.

mownie my little friend, my post was not full of derogatory comments as yours just was. If youfeel the need to pump yourself up and challange me on electrical knowlege, bring it on.

"What's with the "you'll kill a lineman" chicken little type." Not derogatory?
"Any lineman STUPID enough to work on the lines with bare hands got what he deserved!" Not derogatory?
"What a fool a profesional lineman would have to be to leave his gloves off because he can "trust" a neighborhood of homeowners he don't even know." Not derogatory?
Pump myself up?? Hardly. I responded in kind to your post.
"Anyone with some common electrical sense can safely backfeed their gen." Common sense?? Nobody with any common sense would go to a public forum and post something like you did, trying to mislead unsuspecting people into believing that any person can disregard the need for a transfer switch to keep their little portable generator from backfeeding into the public utility grid.....if they only use some common sense. There is no defense against people of your mindset. For as much as you might know about electrical systems, power distribution, or wiring buildings....you completely and arrogantly disregard the notion that safety rules and regulations are there because not everybody has your understanding and knowledge (by your own account). The rules and regulations are in place because the vast majority of people DO NOT have a clue about even basic electrical principles and fundamentals, let alone how to wire something or design a power distribution grid. Challenge your electrical knowledge? I have no doubt that you know a thing or two about electricity......but your knowledge is not what I question. Your Wisdom is what I question. That you would try to belittle people who genuinely would like to be as safe as they can be if they decide to utilize a standby generator during a power outage. I have known a few people like you in my life....always eager to pooh pooh safety rules and minimize or laugh at the threat of electrocution or or other perils. I had the privilege of attending the funeral of one electrical "expert" that I worked with years ago. He was under a house (crawl space, dirt surface)pulling a new home run for a branch circuit that was being added. He was using a metal fish tape pulling 12 gauge NMB. He had the main breaker open. When he began to withdraw the fish line, it snagged or hung up. He fussed at his helper (who was supposed to be guiding the new cable through the knock-out and connector while he pulled from below). His helper had gone back to the truck for something. So the electrician got impatient and started pushing the tape up and down in the wall. The NMB came out of the "noose" and the hook end of the fish tape (which had a sharp edge where it had broken some time in the past) went in between the main service entrance cables and in his yanking and pulling, the sharp edge of the fish tape "hook" dug into the thermoplastic insulation and made contact with the conductor inside. According to the homeowner (who had been standing nearby all this time), he never made a sound, it just got quiet. The helper came back into the house and called out to him but got no answer. The helper was unaware that the fish tape had dug into the hot wire at that time. The helper finally crawled under the house to check on him and he was unresponsive. When the helper grabbed the man's pant legs to drag him out, the fish tape came into contact with the edge of the knock-out, causing a loud pop (as it touched the grounded panel) that the helper and home owner both heard. It did not require a lot of forensic science to figure out the cause of his death and the circumstances leading to it. Even this man's considerable knowledge and experience did not protect him in the end. So don't try to hide behind a facade of knowledge and make fun of people who are just trying to do right and play it safe. Your bluster will not save one life, but transfer switches certainly can.

Where do I start?

I will start by saying I am am truly sorry that you had to go to the funeral of a coworker killed by a hot wire.

That aside, that circumstance has no relevence to home generators, that is, unless you want to make the case that
it is always the electician's responsablility to make sure that his work is safe? I didn't think so.
My original post stated that "Anyone with some common electrical sense can safely backfeed their gen. " So please
don't put words in my mouth. Your accented fear of electricity may very well have come from your co-worker's death, not unlike some people's
unfounded fear of snakes.
I think you fit the phrase, "Be afraid of what you don't understand"
Show us these "MANY"" home gen deaths.
Is this not the forum for those looking for technical advice?
Is this not the forum for those who would rather try to fix it themselves?
What is the point of posting on this forum if your message is only to be scared and to pay a professional?
Yes I'm different than you and PROUD OF IT!
NEC rules are so bloated... let me guess you love lawers?
NEC rules are extreme at best. Rich layers made tons of money with these "one shoe fits all" rules.

You MUST not dive a car. There is NO WAY you would make this unsubstantiatied stand on personal moral
direction, while simultaniously operating a 4000lb machine, which can, and does kill innocent people regularly at the slightest mistake.
Let me guess, You want to outlaw guns too because they can be dangerous with some people?

Nuff said.

Page 48, case # 90-05

Here is a link that might be useful: On topic

See also Page 47, case # 90-03

Here is a link that might be useful: More of topic

Mownie,

Not only are you exactly correct you also clearly explained the issue and backed it up with facts. I just wanted you to know your time presenting your expertise was not wasted. There are a lot of people like me who simply will not post information on topic because we dont feel like being insulted like you have been.

Remember most people that have knowledge, understanding and useful experience on a topic such as this wonÂt take the time to post. It is usually the people who have limited experience and no real training or education that get defensive and post on a lot of these forums. Without the education you really canÂt know what you donÂt know. That is where the danger is.

BTW: I have a doctorate in electrical engineering, but donÂt work in the power field. I also have installed a transfer switch and generator in my own home. It wasnÂt hard to do, just necessary.

Thank you Dr. Stevens. I worked for one of the largest electrical contractor companies in my county in the 1980's. It was mostly residential work with some commercial jobs (on my crew). I never worked with the crews that handled the industrial scale jobs. This "hitch" in the electrical field (no pun intended) was due to me being laid off at my job as a truck mechanic. My (then) neighbor across the street, worked for the electrical contractor company. When he found out I was laid off, he asked if I wanted to do some wiring. I said yes and went to work for the electrical contractor company two days later. I got a recall notice to return to my mechanic job a couple of years later and argued with myself about whether I should go back to repairing trucks. I returned to the trucking company and still work there today.

Danman, you wrote:

"Let me guess, You want to outlaw guns too because they can be dangerous with some people?"

Glad you brought that up. Guns are fine with me. When you hand a gun to someone to look at, is it loaded with safety off? If you leave a rifle on the rack in your pickup, is it loaded with safety off?

No, I bet you unload the gun and put the safety on. You might even use a trigger lock, who knows. You do those things because you don't want to take a chance on hurting someone else needlessly.

I don't know if this is a great analogy, but it came to mind. Don't take chances with someone else's life.

my friend that was killed was a lineman for 15 years. he was called out on a trouble ticket and somehow got electrocuted. the guy tha twas on the call with him said that his arm hit the line as he was getting situated. the POCO said he did not have on his gloves, but the friend swears the shock knocked them off his hands.

if you are going to back feed, then pull your meter FIRST. most home owners do not know enough about AC to even remotely know how to do this. for those the ONLY way is a proper TS. I have backfed before plenty of times, but i do know how to take the proper precautions and ONLY do it in an emergency. most everything i need fed from a genny is thru a TS anyway.

My last point, then I'll shut up (maybe?!). I have a small generator, just in case of emergency. I don't have a transfer switch, though I'm thinking of putting one in. If I need to run something off the generator I run an extension cord, then whatever I want to run I unplug from the wall then plug into the cord. Not very high tech or snazzy, but then again I don't intend to power the house with the generator anyway. Perfectly safe, I use 12 gauge extensions to handle the load OK and a heavy duty 3 in 1 pigtail to plug in multiple items. If you don't want to put in a transfer switch, just do it this way.

dave01,

That is exactly what I did too. But I have a well, not city water, and the pump is hard wired to 220v. The easiest way to power the well pump was through a transfer switch. Otherwise I probably would have just used extension cords.

In the two years since I have installed the transfer switch and generator, I have not needed it. In the 10 years that I have lived in the house I have never needed a generator. So, the extension cord would definitely have sufficed. I really just put the transfer switch in because it was fun.

Tim.

I have a generator that I can backfeed my electrical system in my house. I installed the wiring to allow "me" to hook up the generator during a power outage.
If I were doing it agan I would put in a transfer switch and a generator that was designed to start and auto transfer on power outage.
The reason I would do it differently is it would add value to my house if I were to sell it, the way it is I have to remove "my system" if I sell the house (very simple process, remove the 220V recpt on the outside wall and the 220V breaker in the main panel). I would also remove the sign inside the door of the main panel of which breakers on and which breakers off before going on generator.
I had this setup for several years - the biggest problem - its a pain in the a$$ to exercise the generator (every 6 weeks or so). The auto setups, you can now buy for the homeowner, exercise the generator weekly. I have electrical 2 issues with my system.
As far as back feeding the line to the power company I don't worry about it - When I throw the main breaker off I'm disconnected (the 1st issue is the breaker for the generator feed is not interlocked to the main. The 2nd issue is the chance of overloading and destroying my generator is great, either by my own load being to great or the main power breaker being turned on while the generator is connected.
Most if not all power companys now in the U.S. are equiped to handle backfed power into thier systems because of people generating thier own power by wind or solar and selling excess power back to the company.

"BTW, i had a good friend get killed because of a jack ass that ALWAYS turned off his main before running his genny. problem was, he was turning off the breaker to the stove, not the panel main."

How did I miss this one? If this story was true, the individual would have tripped a breaker at minimum the very FIRST time he did this the moment power was restored. Just for giggles let's say that the story continues that this person had the 1 in a million luck that he always took the gen back off line just before power was restored. It would take another 1 in a million chance that all the neighbors didn't notice or report that they kept getting brownout repowers shortly after every power failure, as he would be trying to power them ( most neighbors would likely have damaging low voltage). And throw in another 1 in 1000 that he never tried testing his generator while there was power. In that case he could have at least tripped a breaker again.

If you understand electricity, have at least a voltmeter, and common sense..If you don't suffer from memory issues...
Actually, If paying for a transfer switch makes you sleep better, then you are exactly the person who should pay for one.

"It is usually the people who have limited experience and no real training or education that get defensive and post on a lot of these forums"
Sometimes, sometimes not. You never really know who is at the other keyboard do you? In fact sometimes it's just the opposite. Sometimes some people that are knowlegable on the topic actually enjoy playing un-edukted :)

Posted by mownie:

Besides, it is plainly a violation of the National Electrical Code and your state law to connect a generator to a wiring system that is also connected to a public power grid without an approved transfer switch to prevent the 2 systems from being interconnected.

****************************

I haven't tried to check on the state law issue, but the power company sent a notice to be sure the main breaker is turned off if useing emergency generator without a transfer switch.

This is probably because many generators are sold during storms and it isn't possible to have a transfer switch installed until later.

JerryO