There can be more than one reason to compost.

Lloyd

Lloyd,

It looks to me like you've covered most of the reasons, AND most of the methods. What do you use your tumblers for? It's a great design.

Tropical_Thought wrote:
> If you try to guilt people into composting it won't work. One has to really love it to want to continue.

That's a really good point. You and NancyJane aren't sisters, are you? You both make so many good points. This passage by author Barbara Pleasant from Mother Earth News was interesting, I thought:

"Hooray for everyone who is composting, but why do so many people think it's OK not to compost? Compost educators in search of answers are all over a recent study from Scotland titled "Behavioral Determinants of Household Participation in a Home Composting Scheme." The bottom line is that it's all about attitude. To get a non-composter to pick up a digging fork, forget about saving the world. Instead, convince them that composting is what they must do to be a good person. Then give them a bin."

Ms. Pleasant continues:
"These and other studies on home composting also shed light on the habits of active composters, who typically compost 70 percent of their food waste and either compost or recycle all of their yard waste. Once people start composting, they don't stop -- nine out of 10 people who start composting are still at it 10 years later. Long-time composters tend to keep more than one type of compost, too -- usually a heap and an enclosed bin."

"Sound familiar? Another statistical tidbit about fellow rot-watchers caught my eye: People who make compost are more likely to buy compost. Confession time: I had been feeling guilty about the three big bags of Poplar Manor compost I bought last week, but not anymore! After all, buying locally made compost is a good move that helps my garden and my community, and it takes the pressure off of my compost to hurry up and get done."
[End of quote]

Barbara Pleasant is co-author of "The Complete Compost Gardening Guide," which I just picked up at Amazon. This book is so helpful and awesome. It's another one of those books from Storey Publishing. (I'm not affiliated with Storey in any way, but I've really been amazed by them the past 8 months. They always put together great books, often in an over-sized format with lots of gorgeous color photos throughout their books. Quality outfit.)

My first tumbler was built for our household use when I was using the pallet bins. The 45 gallon drum tumbler was something we found in the local dump that we used in the compost demonstration area. The multi-tumblers came about because we had an old 300 gallon fuel tank that couldn't be used for fuel any longer so we tried to find some way to make it into a tumbler. It snow balled from there when we got a couple of I-beams from a demolition and jury rigged those and some car parts into a base to hold multiple drums. We still haven't finished the darn thing but it is on the 'to do' list. ;-)

I mainly use the tumblers for food items (stuff rodents and other animals would love to get at). Being out in the country yet close to some residences and a major highway, I did not want any issues/problems for my neighbours. There is a capped landfill only a mile away and there are rats in the area. I do not want anyone going to the local government accusing me of being a problem with the rodents/wildlife. If they shut me down for whatever reason, I lose a decent income stream and the beneficial materials for my fields.

I'm of the opinion if a person wants to compost on a larger scale they had best not cause inconveniences to the general public. Having the demonstration area, being very mindful of the neighbours and generally being good to the community with support and donations shows people that a small scale operation doesn't have to be detrimental overall.

Lloyd

P.S. For some reason I think that Barbara Pleasant is a member of gardenweb and was posting here a few years back.

I think a lot of authors must like GardenWeb. Sandy Baker, author of The Complete Guide to Organic Lawn Care mentions this site in her bibliography. Great book, too.

I gotta say, though, that Atlantic Publishing Group didn't do a good job editing, proofreading, or typesetting the book. Not sure which of those 3 functions is involved, but I am not exaggerating in the least when I say this finely written book has an error on *every* fifth page.

I highlighted with a marker every error I found if they want me to send them my copy. Whew, I've never seen so many errors in a book--literally every 5th page.

Thank you Lloyd. I knew you would have a good clear and rational explanation.

Kind of reminds me of the phrase:

"If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"

You have an inspiring operation.

Took a while but I found her....

bcomplx1

Lloyd

And not only do you have an inspiring operation like Bi11me said, you also are helping Mother Earth more than many of us put together, if author Paul Tukey is to be believed when he writes in his book The Organic Lawn Care Manual:

"I submit that the conscious creation of compost and the subsequent addition of compost to the soil is humankind's primary contribution to the health of the planet as a whole."

....Tell that to the council if they ever want to shut your compost operation down, due to their being misinformed about the importance of compost.

Kimmsr wrote:
> Turning often does not necessarily cool down a compost pile

Turning a compost pile both cools the pile down and warms it up. The turning will initially cool down the pile. Say you turn the pile when it drops below the thermophillic threshold of 104* F. The turning will immediately drop the pile into the 60's, 70's, or 80's Fahrenheit, depending.

But within an hour or two, the pile's temperature will again begin to climb because the aerobic bacteria now have the oxygen they need (as a result of the turning) to carry on their work. In 24 hours--give or take a few hours--the pile will again be in the thermophillic range above 104* F.

This assumes a good C:N ratio and adequate, not excessive, moisture.

At least that's what I've found with my small, 5-cubic foot pile inside my plastic barrel tumbler. Adding chopped, slightly moist (not soggy) banana peels, grapefruit rinds and orange rinds during the turning will increase the temperature even more. My carbon source has been shredded leaves.

Forgot to add: my small pile has usually been able to stay thermophillic for between 2 to 4 days before needing a tumble.

I found it does cool down a pile to turn it. You can get away with mixing it a bit. If I turn a hot pile the next day it is cool. I have add more coffee ground and more bagged browns to the top again to keep the heat going. I lost my compost thermometer for the time being, so I can't say how much heat is lost, would say a lot of heat is lost. It is better to wait until you lost heat anyway as time passes, then turn, then add more stuff. Rather then turning on a good heat and ruining it. Therefore I would assume with a tumbler each time you turn it you may lose heat, but I don't know since it's a closed system. I have not tested this, since I don't have a tumbler. But, just another reason that tumblers are not a good product. The cost a bit more. I am not speaking of an interest homemade one that could be free or cheap, but those slick website selling over priced plastic tumblers to seniors by promising no work composting. No work compost is like losing weight without eating less calories or learn to play music without practicing.

Most of my piles get turned only 3 or 4 times. I like to get a high heat the first time - above 150, then let it sit for about a month. I turn again without adding anything, but being careful to use what was on the inside at first - now the best composted - on top of what was on the outside. I get a good second heating, but not as hot and not as long. After it cools, I turn it once more, this time trying to get a good mix, and removing anything that is still easily recognizable to add to the newest pile. Any turns after that happen on a monthly basis as time allows. I usually use those piles within 6 to 8 months.

I agree with using the pile fast. I found if you wait a long time, you lose too much of the bulk. If you want more compost like I do, I just let it age even more in the ground after I use it. There are a lot of red worms that can eat up all your compost. If they do it in the ground instead of in the bin there are not so many in the ground. But, of course a tumbler won't have worms at all, so that is a not a issue with tumblers. Someday I may try a closed system for fun, but not a tumbler closed system.

I just got an email update from ZoysiaSod, that I had missed. One would think hypothetically you would get more heat by changing the placement of the matter and providing more air. Turning makes fast compost especially since I was mush up any lumps with gloves on. But, it does not give me more heat and always give me less heat unless I then add more of the coffee and bagged browns at the time. So, while it should work in practice it does not work for me. I want an extended heating period to help break down the mass of fall leaves that are taking too long to process at this time. Even after waiting a day, even after checking it again and again. The compost that is mostly spent has to be removed it or will slow down the rest of the pile. If I removed the finished compost I will be lacking in the matrix of mushy stuff, so then I add more and get more heat. I check again, I think I am getting more heat from my turning, but I am getting it from the addition of the new materials. This is why a lot of people get really into turning. They turn and the compost does well, they think they are making progress. Did they need to turn so often? Or would just turning infrequently be just as good? More people would get into compost if they did not think it would be so much work with turning it so much. Four times turned for a fast batch seems to be the optimal amount of turning.

Turning a pile and tumbling a tumbler have different effects, the two procedures are similar but different.

Lloyd

I forgot that GardenWeb gives folks the option to receive Automatic Email Updates when new posts are made to a thread. Email Updates are a nice feature.

My tumbler's opening is wide enough to allow me to comfortably use a pitchfork to "turn" the ingredients. I first turn with a pitchfork, then tumble.

I guess that's one of the advantages of using a large plastic barrel with an open top: you can easily insert a pitchfork to turn the compost before you tumble it.

By the way, is there a way to find out who the moderators of the forums are? Also, I'm wondering if moderators have access to I.P. numbers? Just curious :-)
Thanks.

I'm still trying to understand the first post here about so called toxic leachates.
So it's OK for the leachates to leach into the soil but it is bad for plants that grow in the soil?
Do I need to call a hazmat crew to remove this bad stuff?

The toxicity relates to concentration, not content. A double espresso is pretty good - ten double espressos, not so much.

Right what bil said, it is too strong to use a compost tea. I never use compost teas at all. It seems like too much work. I have real compost, no need for a tea. Even a high dose of nitrogen can burn a plant, althought nitrogen is healthy for plants. But, there could be too many bad bacteria if you end up going anaerobic. Right now my compost is some what too wet, this creates problem things in the compost, that I want to drain away into the ground. It does not hurt near by trees, they seem to like it. I am talking about saving up all the leachates in like a little tray and then dumping it on the plants. They may wilt. It could be too strong for them. But, I have never tried this since I was warned here on garden web years ago, not to do this.

Leachates and compost teas are different. For tea, you use a small proportion of compost in a large volume of water. Leachates are formed by a small amount of water in contact with large amounts of compost. Water filtered through compost will absorb everything it can until it reaches a saturation point, and that will result in excess. Compost tea has moderate amounts. It's like comparing a 12 ounce Bloody Mary to a shot of vodka - the same volume of straight vodka is going to have a very different effect. Leachates are a sign of nutrient loss and inefficient compost methods.

And teas are typically kept aerobic by bubbling air through them. Otherwise the microbes will use up oxygen way faster than in can diffuse into the liquid. Concentrated compost leachate will be not only devoid of O2 but have a lingering demand for more, which can't be good for the soil microbes if used full strength. I don't know if this is the primary mechanism of damage to plants, but it seems like it would be a problem.

Tumbler websites tell people that the leachates are compost tea. This is confusing to newbies. In one case, they claimed leachates were liquid fertilizer, which they are but they not the same as some thing like say fish emulsion. Since the tumblers don't drain to the ground like a bin, they have trays to catch leachates which they try to put a positive spin. They take the negative factors and try to make them positive. It's all deceptive marketing.

so leachates aren't bad if they are diluted first?
in essence they are actually good for plants when dilluted?

no, I still don't think they are good because leachates could have bad bacteria.

How would you keep air bubbling in a compost tea? Maybe one could make it an old fish tank set up and use an aerator? Those air stones that pump air into the water. It seems like too much work if you can do real compost, but if you live place without space for a bin or a pile, maybe it would be good.

I don't think my success in gardening is due to fungal or microherds, I think it is the soil improvement that means the soil gets the water and nutrients to the plants better then pure sand. I don't think compost benefits can be bought with magic compost starters or fungal powders. I think it's the organic matter that brings the most benefits. You want to dig in that organic matter as deep as the plant roots go to make sure the plant is getting good benefits down to the root of the plant. Sometimes it is not realistic to dig up a plant to improve the soil, but at least if you plant a new one you can improve the soil around it.

So if I am understanding one of your objections to tumblers correctly, it is that the advertisers are not telling the complete truth about the leachate. And that is the tumblers fault, how?

Lloyd

Well, I'm still happy with my $5 dump find of a bullet type tumbler!
It does occasionally end up upside down, but 1/2 turn fixes that!
I still have bags and bags of leaves to add my greens/ucgs to.
I tumble 1-2xs per week and get a much faster breakdown of materials, then dump the whole kit and kabootle into the bin to finish.I also have a bad shoulder that won't allow me to use the pitchfork.
This seems to speed up my compost by about 6 months!
I do, however, have several bins working at the same time. I'm not just counting on the tumbler for my compost.
What ev, to each their own! Nancy

With all due respect to those who dislike tumblers, you must not be doing it correctly.

I am new to vegetable gardening and purchased the Jora JK400 tumbling composter. This thing is amazing and so easy to use! I collect coffee grounds from the local Staryucks, combine with grass clippings, leaves, and kitchen scraps, add a little bit of water, and voila! The compost gets very, very warm - hot to the touch, in fact - and I have glorious compost in 3 weeks.

They key to creating compost so quickly is simple: 1) reverse the greens/browns ratio - make it 2 parts green to 1 part brown; 2) tumble at least 5 times each day to maintain aerobic bacterial activity. Less browns, more greens, tumble plenty and you are rewarded. The traditional brown/green ratios are good for piles, but for tumblers that ratio should be reversed.

The key to having success with a tumbler has everything to do with the tumbler. The Jora is insulated with 2" of foam on the inside. This allows for high thermals with relatively low mass of compost. The total capacity of this composter is 100 gallons, or approximately 14 cuft., divided into two compartments.

I live in a suburban subdivision in Arizona where an exposed compost pile would attract nuisance pests, flies, and who knows what else during our 110ú+ summers. The tumbler was the best solution for our situation, supplies us with beautiful and rich compost, and is not at all difficult to use.

I don't know a single compost pile that can produce usable compost in 3 weeks. And about those "leachates"... the brown liquid that drains from my tumbler after a rainstorm is like black gold for my plants. Don't pay attention to the nonsense here.

he Jora JK400 tumbling composter does seem really cool, and it might even work great in hot climates, because its metal and would get hot. I looked at it online, but it costs 739 dollars! I thought I was crazy to spend over 100 dollars on plastic bins, but that has to be the most expensive ever. I would love to have one and totally test it out and report back, maybe that it works great. And most people are too lazy to bother to get coffee grounds from starbucks, and that can lead all kind of problems with insects. I mean it's good you get grounds, they are 98 percent of the whole deal. Without grounds I can't make good compost at all.

"I mean it's good you get grounds, they are 98 percent of the whole deal. Without grounds I can't make good compost at all."

I noticed that wet grounds tend to compress the pile. In my experience, the most simple mix is grass and leaves (except for fall leaves, maple, sweet gum and oak). If you find grounds to work well, I wonder what 'browns' you are using, and how finely they are shredded.

Starbucks had two kinds of grounds when I used to go there, seven to twelve years ago. They gave away expresso grounds in a bag weighting maybe twenty pounds rather wet. But once they had none and I asked persmission to check the dumpster. I never went back inside, the dumpster had over 100 pounds of grounds with filters, and they were looser with less water. Checked it on collection days with a rubbermaid and long-handled tool, and always cleaned up any mess I made.

Later they switched the big bags to little bitty bags, and it seemed like company policy did not encouraged the give away.

I find grass to be a excellent 'green', but problematic to use others grass. My favorite ingredients are small fish and seaweed, if available.

Every starbucks has a different policy for the grounds. In my area, they stopped filling bags and now it is much harder. If I could pick up a bag, but you have a huge complex process of requesting it and on and on and sometimes they try to me a huge bag, I can't carry. I bring my own bags and containers. It is very annoying and difficult and often they are too wet and that can be bad. I never add water to my compost to off set the wet problem. However, even too wet coffee grounds are still better then none. Grass is a huge pain, it matts up and is a lot of work to deal with. I don't have a lawn anymore. In California we are having a drought and not supposed to have lawns. I could see in Arizona things would dry up fast, off setting the wet grounds. But, you need a closed system. Grounds attract flies.

Just goes to show how people see things differently. I found fresh cut grass to be easier to work with than the used coffee grounds the last poster Tropical Thought prefers.

I like grass better than the wet Starbucks expresso grounds, and even the dryer Starbucks dumpster grounds mixed with filters (and some trash). But 90% of my browns are finely shredded leaves (paper is hard to mix in my experience), so twice mowed grass mixes in well. Of course grass is only available from April to late October in my mid-west climate.

In any pile, tumbler, or gismo, I find mixing the main ingredients to be better than layering. Problematic stuff like fish parts and kitchen scraps go into the center of the pile.

Getting a little off topic from tumblers, but I agree on the mixing. If one has enough volume at once, a whole batch with a good grn/brown balance can be made at once. I've made some great compost with huge batches of grass clippings and leaves mixed on a tarp.

I wrote that first post back two years ago and newer tumblers have come out. It was reaction to some friend of mine that had this little cheap tumbler that was plastic on thin wire frame. It was too heavy to turn at all, and it had an infestation of fungus gnats. It was too hard to turn because the water was not draining away. But, that was a super cheap tumbler.

Now looking at some of the high end tumblers I do want that one that cost 700 dollars plus. It would great for my problem with raccoons trying to dig under my bins and then removing stuff and strewing it all over the yard.

The cheap poorly made compost tumbler is one of the most heinous crimes foisted upon unsuspecting consumers. There should be a special anaerobic circle of hell for the people who sell them.

I found the JK 125 is around 300 dollars and not totally out of reach. In fact, I want to buy one of these sometime down the line if I was too old to do turn it myself, which considering I am almost 50 could be not that far away. But one problem is I would worry about someone stealing it out of my yard. The appear to come in three sizes small medium and large. I would like the small or the medium. I wish I could see them in a show room. The big one would be too big, I feel for my needs, but would be good if you had a restaurant and were recycling a lot of food and were raising vegetables as well to use it all up. The sun would shine on the metal and heat that up really good.

So in conclusion, low end tumblers are bad, but high end ones are good. This was been most enlightening for me to have posted.

Here is a link that might be useful: the smaller size one is affortable

I have used a tumbler for a year and a half, a bought plastic bin for a year or so, and mesh bins for about ten years. The cheap hardware cloth mesh bins are the only one I recommend.

They all will serve to make compost, but the large mesh bins work the best, and cost the least IMHO. They retain heat longer towards winter, smell less, can be moved, hold lots more material (handy if you are storing the fall leaves). Took me five minutes to set up -- the compost tumbler took me three hours to assemble even if the instruction said two hours.

I have been trying to think of one nice thing to say about my tumbler -- but I can't think of one. It tended to form clumps if you didn't get the moisture just right. It was harder on my back than than my 24" high bins and the compost fork. The center bar rusted out in less than four years.

The experience did reinforce one idea -- knowledge is often more important than a fancy gizmo.

I am happy for those who enjoy using tumblers. I recall seeing pictures one person made of a motor turning a huge round drum, with rubbermaids underneath.

People often have strong opinions about their composting system. I sometimes wonder how many other types of composting they have experimented with.

The san Francisco garden show started today and I saw the Jora JK125 tumbler and it was too small, because it has dual chambers, but that means each chamber is only half the size of the total volume and it will not have enough volume to generate heat. I would like it better if they removed the division. It was the sort of thing that people who don't want to touch or sort the compost would use, but it would be way too small. One could use the thing until it was half done and then go to ground bin for further curing. It would just not be big enough for me and would take way too late to create compost. I like mine done fast so I use it before it gets eaten by worms and other bugs and things.

We're in the pacific northwest and we have a problem with forest rats if we just throw household waste into a pile. So I made a 55 gallon plastic barrel end-over-end tumbler and I find it keeps the rats at bay but it doesn't compost worth a damn. We dump in some veggie waste and blend it with dried leaves, pine shavings and wood ash and this make it smell a bit better but it's basically a stinking wet mess. Once it got about half full we quit adding any more veggie waste in the hope it would dry out and begin composting. I also drilled more holes and larger holes to try to get some air movement and drainage. Neither of these moves gave me the result I was looking for - in part because it rains a lot and the humidity is always high in the winter. It does keep the rats away though and I mounted it high enough that it's easy to unload. I figure that if we leave it alone long enough it'll take care of itself. Last year I added whatever was left in in to the mix we start in the fall in our classic three bin system.

We also have a classic three bin hot composting system in which we compost chicken manure, pine shavings, leaves and some wood ash. We fill two adjacent bins with this mix and then shovel/turn them every few days by shifting each bin over to the vacant bin beside it. This unit works extremely well.

When using a system like that even with some holes, one has to turn it more often. I found when I started using the raccoon proof bin, and its a lot of work, so I don't get to it as much as I could or should. But, it can just stay there until you are ready to change to another bin, that is what I do.

I have 2 of the compost twins , and 2 of the compost original tumblers with the cranks and wouldnt trade them . I have learned to turn them so as the doors are down if a lot of rain is anticipated. I tend to turn them only about twice a week and I dont come close to compost in two weeks. I use them mostly with kitchen scraps and leaves. Usually after about 6 weeks or so all of the contents of the four will fit into one of them. Then I add grass clippings to it and fill the other three again.
I also use open piles on the ground about 6 ft. square chicken wire for non food items where the crows and squirrels arent interested.

I have found the end over end rotating ones to be too awkward. The barrel types that are on rollers with the screw off openings become unbalanced and very hard to spin with their molded in dents for turning.

I was digging around in the Wayback Machine a while ago and found a similar thread from about 10 years ago. One came away with bigger is better for batch composting as well as following manufacturer's instructions. If they called for 6 turns per day, that did not mean that 1 turn in 6 days gives the same result. I've got friends who bought the small ones just for kitchen scraps and love it. Input is not much more than a pint per day but it all eventually breaks down to very rich compost. They don't need a big one, just something big enough to contain what little they generate and create an environment that will break it down with minimal loss of nutrients. Tumblers are the only things that allow that.

I green cone will do that, also. They are small like a wastebasket, but you turn it yourself. I like big ones to fit all the starbucks grounds and all the sheared wood. Small ones won't make heat even you are balanced. It has to be something like a cubic yard, I forgot how much, to get heat.

I have a jorafoarm compost tumbler and i have to admit it does hold alot of water or it lets rain dribble in so i need to tarp it to keep it dry and not smelling bad. but in the summer the darn thing composts so fast i can hardly feed it enough. i guess at least the joraforms have their strengths and weaknesses. they are definitely not worthless though they work well you just have to keep the dry, and i never use the tea from a bin all the good stuff is in the compost anyway.

I see where the original poster is coming from. Tumblers are not as cheap as they should be and they don't process as much as an open bin can. For people living in a city though in either a condo, townhome, or a house with a small plot of land it's a good way to process the small amount of food scraps they produce.

I have one and I'd definitely prefer to have a several cubic yard bin instead. If for no other reason so I could do true "hot composting". I've had it go stinky once when I was first learning and remedied it with some dry leaves and shredded paper. It's a batch system though so you have to let it finish cooking before you can use it. Initially that meant I stored all my scraps in the freezer for about a month while the bin finished. Now though I have a Vermicompost bin that I use to finish the compost. This way I don't care if the tumbler gets 100% finished as long as it gets close enough that the worms like it.

It's not an ideal solution but it reduces the waste my family puts in the land full and it produces some good compost for our vegetable garden. Maybe someday I'll have a bigger piece of property so I can do a big bin, but for the foreseeable future, I'm happy wig how the Tumbler works into my garden system.

I used to think that about tumblers. I built one and it sat in my yard for a year or two, and I never used it (because I didn't know what to do). Then about a year ago, I decided to tackle the issue on not understanding. I've completed a 5-part video series after trying different "recipes" over the past year. I've learned more about compost in general by doing this, not just about hot compost. Check it out if you're interested. Hot Compost in a Compost Tumbler. Here's a picture of some grape tomato plants I grew this year in my garden using homemade hot compost, worm castings, and other organic fertilizers and soil amendments.

That's not a tomato plant ........that's a tomato tree! Just don't let it tip over and crush your house in a wind-storm.

Is the soil for those only as deep as your three landscape ties? Whatever depth it is your plants are obviously enjoying it!!

Harry

Wow! Old thread. I must be getting old because now I just shrug at the inaccuracies I see posted.

Lloyd...Yeah, I started into it before I realized how old it was. I've never used a tumbler but to each their own. "Shrug at the inaccuracies"...lol...know what ya mean.

I wish I had blight-free tomatoes like that, even if they were only half that tall. :-]