Pennymca asks:

"Do you use blood meal or MaxGro(TM)?"

First of all let me say that using teas or other organic tonics is a very powerful tool when used correctly. Responsible and safe making and using of any organic tea should be job #1 (just keeping it real). That being said lets see what we can do to get a healthy, bountiful, and tasty harvest from the use of this technology.

I have used alfalfa meal, soybean meal, fishmeal, and blood meal in my Bug Juice (high protein = high nitrogen). Any protein source can be used, I use what is convenient and offers the most bangs for the buck.

"Is BJ a super concentrated version of a nonaerated (re: bubblers) compost tea?"

Yes, it is concentrated, as concentrated as the compost that is used. Remember, well-matured compost will have more enzymes, acids, vitamins, and nutrients than non-matured compost. High microbe count is all well and good, however, unless there is a way for the plant to access the nutrients it is all a waste of time IMO. We want all our teas loaded with Humic and Fulvic acid to take the nutrients into the plant; the bacteria and fungi do not do this, they just make the acids. And too, which would you rather have, plants waiting on the acids to be made, or the acids there, ready to go to work?

I also feel that aerated-vs-nonaerated is overstated; both are going to give one the same results in the end. While aerated will give one a higher bacteria count, the soil can only carry so much microbe life, when the food is gone there is going to be a mass die-off due to lack of food. So what is the point of overloading the soil with bacteria? Better to load the soil with nutrients, the plants will take what they want and leave the rest anyway. The nutrition will not be wasted; it will be stored within the humus in the soil (if there is humus there and not destroyed by plowing/tilling).

"Do you use it directly on your plants as well as to hop up the compost making?"

I dont use it on the compost (but one can if one is looking for speed of decomposition), but I do use it as a soil drench and foliar spray on plants. Again, this is a tool these teas we make, we are suppose to use them to make our plants grow better and produce to their maximum potential. Thus each tea we make is supposed to do a certain thing for a certain reason (not just go out there and spray the hell outta everything). A young plant need nitrogen (canÂt grow heavy tomatoes/pepper on a skinny plant), a mid-aged plant need phosphorus to flower and fruit (canÂt grow big without the nutrients), and an older plant needs potassium for girth and weight (again, canÂt be loaded with vitamins/minerals unless they are there when needed). The teas we make are supposed to provide the needed food at the needed time; it is our job to know when to that time comes (plants donÂt wear a watch). All this is why Bug Juice, BIM, and all the other "tools" we have are so important and why they make our job so much easier; as long as we pay attention to our plants.

"Do you use other "compost teas" as well as the BJ? (I'm thinking of B.Deueley's aerated tea recipes which seem to be a bit "lighter" in composition."

Yes. Compost tea is the base for everything I foliar feed or soil drench. We want our compost to be loaded with fulvic and humic acids, they are the "work horses" for all that stacking, turning, watering, and smoke watching we are prone to do. We are dealing with what Maye E. Bruce called "the powerful little"; a small amount gives a big dividend. This is why there is no need to be greedy when using teas, the power is in the small amount that is needed, too much and our plants go "bionic". So yes, I use the right tea at the right time at the right amount, and in the end eat a right good amount.

"Also comparing this to the BIM I've made with the yogurt whey and molasses. I have a gallon of the stuff which is to be further diluted 2-4 T per gallon of water."

Compost tea IMO should be used 10:1, but as low as 5:1 ratio is ok. It is better to use a small amount more often than a large amount fewer times. I can always spray/drench more, but I havenÂt figured out how to suck some off when I put on too much. Better to err on the side of too little, there is plenty of time to add more.

IMO, growing food and flowers should be a passion of love; we all do much better when our hearts are in the right place. The reward should not come at the end (harvest); it should be there the entire time. Our commitment to make better speaks for itself, all we have to do is do what we do; the right thing for the right reason. There are many more joys than to go outside and find a 30# watermelon laying there waiting to be eaten, not to mention that it is a little bit bigger than a bathroom scale; but biting into that rascal sure does push it up the scale as I close my eyes and savior that flavorÂ

{{gwi:263429}}

Blutranes

BT,

WOW! Whattamelon!

Great info, too, as always.

Much appreciated.

Penny

Pennymca,

The pleasure is all mine, thanks for asking the questions.

Can you imagine what would happen if I planted the way Valerie RU shared in the charcoal thread? Let me be the first to say I cant wait to get out there and use that technique. And too the information you (Penny) found about BIM; we are going to be needing a walk-in freezer around here. I suppose that is what we get for having an open mind and not being bound by one way of thinking; IMO, this is a good thing.

All I know is this thing called "organic gardening" just keeps getting better and better. I can hardly wait to see what the future provides

Blutranes

What is this bug juice? I read the link and I see it as being a tonic, but still no correlation to why BUG is in the title? If it is ready once the yeast and corn starch are done doing their thing, it says you can add it directly to plants trees etc. If it is at that stage there would be no reason to think bugs still had to digest this concoction for it to transform into the state a plant can use.

Can I make a request. If you're going to start a new thread to continue a discussion from somewhere else can you at least clue us in to where we might find the rest of the conversation?

Hi penny,

please refresh my memory, what's BIM? Thanks.

Otis.

This almost seems like snake oil to sell this "mystery" product called MAX GRO. I feel more comfortable buying the other snake oil products like Dr. Bronner's oil soap and Super Thrive.

Pepprz asks:

"What is this bug juice? I read the link and I see it as being a tonic, but still no correlation to why BUG is in the title?"

From the Bug Juice web site:

"This is what you need in order to make Bug Juice.
One 5 gallon bucket.
Corn starch
Bread yeast
MaxGro our fishmeal product, or another source of protein. Blood meal will work.
Ripe fruit, such as plums, apples, apricots, peaches, watermelons, peeled bananas or whatever. No citrus."

And later says:

"You have now mixed the ingredients, a handful of good compost and added water. Mix periodically to aerate the mix and leave the bucket in the sun. After one week, start applying the Bug Juice to the compost or table scraps you have collected, or directly to poor soil. Bug Juice can be directly applied to plants, trees, grass, whatever. It is disgusting to look at, but it is a powerful organic "nutrient soup" for the soil."

Thus one takes the mixture, put into 5-gallon bucket, and add compost (about two (2) handfuls) and water. The microbes (bugs) in the compost will thrive on the added mixture. The resulting tea is strained (if so desired) and added/sprayed on plants, compost pile, lawn etc. As stated above, I suggest diluting the mixture 10:1 based on strength of compost used.

Greenwood85 asks:

"Can I make a request. If you're going to start a new thread to continue a discussion from somewhere else can you at least clue us in to where we might find the rest of the conversation?"

See Link Below...

Blutranes

Otis, Greenwood

Here's the link back to the original post on BIM (beneficial indigenous microorganisms). The title of the actual thread is "Why I love the internet...REALLY it's ON TOPIC"

There are several links within a couple of my posts over there. One is quite long but the basis for capturing your own BIM from the air, soil, etc. Very interesting reading.

Ppopp....I'm thinking that the MaxGro is just fish extract which can be bought from several places online.
So sorry for the confusion.

Also, if you youtube "compost tea" you can watch this series of videos from a seminar on compost tea, among others. LOTS of great info there, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGISMHOCuhU

PPoPP...

I misspoke...fish MEAL instead of fish extract, though I'm assuming they're essentially the same thing.

Here's one place to buy it:

http://www.cleanairgardening.com/fishmeal.html

Or cheaper if you buy 2 boxes/4lbs from this source:

http://store.emerysgarden.com/sifishmeal.html

I'm betting Bluetranes might know of an even better/cheaper source for this, too.

And be sure to read his link to Reversing Plant Aging, above. If THAT doesn't give hope to a gal with red clay for soil, NOTHING will.

BTW, BT, that whole site (Grouppe Kurasawa)is MOST interesting. Thanks for those links.

"I'm betting Bluetranes might know of an even better/cheaper source for this, too."

I have never used MaxGro. As I stated above:

"I have used alfalfa meal, soybean meal, fishmeal, and blood meal in my Bug Juice (high protein = high nitrogen). Any protein source can be used, I use what is convenient and offers the most bangs for the buck."

All this talk of "snake oil" and such is becoming suspect IMO. The author even suggests using "any protein source", so I fail to see anyone trying to sell anything.

"BT, that whole site (Grouppe Kurasawa)is MOST interesting. Thanks for those links."

Thanks, I was amazed when I first found that site. Their focus on healing of people with chronic as well as terminal illnesses is very motivational and touching. With the chief scientist having the hobby of organic gardening IMO is a bonus for those of us who share that same interest.

About "reverse agin"; I too had two trees (Dogwood and Peach) that were close to death and the chainsaw when I found that site. Needless to say both trees are very much alive and growing like never before. The only thing I have applied to both of them are Bug Juice, compost, and mulch, so I know all that was said about Bug Juice is true. If you do decide to purchase MaxGro please let me know how it works for you, I always enjoy adding good products to my gardening tool box.

Again thanks Pennymca for your kind words. The Bug Juice as well as BIM will serve you and your garden very well IMO, as it has mine these many years...

Blutranes

Hey Bluetranes..

I'm very much looking forward to making my dreary desert of a yard ('ceptin for grass and a few flowerbeds) into a thing of bounty and beauty. Tired of just thinking about it and time to do something about it. You have no idea how much your insights have helped and pointed me toward stuff I'd never thought of before. (Along with a dozen or so other regular posters here...)

As for the MaxGro..I meant you might know the best/cheapest source for fish meal. Sorry I didn't make that clearer.

Funny thing though, while googling "fish meal" I found my way to a site that, umm, (cough cough) Michael Phelps might have found interesting in November. It answered a question about fish meal in feed for farm raised catfish, which my oldest dd's boyfriend's daddy raises.

Off I go into Googleland tracking down what is in catish feed and am lead to the article in the link.

At first glance I thought the guy looked familiar. Reading his name, I nearly flipped. Hometown guy. Matriculated from HS with his daughter. Ahhhh, the circle of life.

If I made bug juice and innoculated it with Trichoderma
harzianum or Streptomyces lydicus, would I end up with
bug juice loaded with those bacteria?

Any innoculum that is used in "Bug Juice" is going to grow. This is why in my first post I stated the importance of safety in making any type of "tea". And too, using any BIM organic ingredient can be inoculated with any source of bacteria or fungi. Again, safety is the key...

Blutranes

bluetranes said "A young plant need nitrogen (cant grow heavy tomatoes/pepper on a skinny plant), a mid-aged plant need phosphorus to flower and fruit (cant grow big without the nutrients), and an older plant needs potassium for girth and weight (again, cant be loaded with vitamins/minerals unless they are there when needed)".

The above quote, at least to me, seems to be one of the most important parts of this conversation.

Any ideas on how to achieve the right balance in our brews for the 3 stages of plant life?

Gjcore asks:

" Any ideas on how to achieve the right balance in our brews for the 3 stages of plant life?"

The key to getting the right nutrients to the plants at the right time relates to what is being fed to the microbes when making Bug Juice. By having the right nutrients being fed at the right time the plant can respond the way the gardener desires. As an example:

Early growth

Adding fish emulsion or a seed meal (alfalfa, soybean, or other high protein (nitrogen) source will result in good fast growth for the plant.

Mid growth

Adding bone meal, seaweed, or other high phosphorus nutrient will ensure good root growth as well as stem development.

Flowering/fruiting growth

Adding seaweed, potash, greensand, or other high potassium source will insure good fruiting and weight to harvests. And too, adding calcium at any given stage will insure plants will have the right ratio to adsorb all the nutrients being fed to plants.

While using any given tea will always aid in plant growth IMO, having the nutrients in the soil to feed microbes is always important. While some will advocate having a soil test to know what is needed within soil, the ability to measure organic nutrients in said soil is extremely expensive and unrealistic throughout the growing season. Plants are smart enough to know what they need and when they need it; we are responsible to make sure all the nutrients are in the soil at the right time. Talk of pollution from overfeeding plants is all well and good, however, soil endowed with ample organic matter and compost/humus will store nutrients until needed by plants. To my knowledge, no soil test has been developed to measure what is stored with soil compost/humus levels yet, thus to mime about testing something that is "untestable" leaves much to be desired. Better to maintain high levels of compost and humus in the soil, make sure all the nutrients are in the soil for plants to be able to absorb said nutrients, and the gardener at the ready to harvest and consume said harvest are the best way to get healthy food to the table. Full spectrum amendments (loaded with all the nutrients we need for our body) added to the soil in the form of fertilizer or compost tea remove all doubt of weather the nutrients are there; we know they are there because we put them there. This includes all the nutrients a so-called "soil test" never tested for in the first place. I am not saying to never get a soil test; what I am saying is I never waste my money on a soil test; we test our soil at the dinner table.

Blutranes