Just to add my two cents, since this thread has been revived... M.hat, I'm guessing the reason that you've seen these things looking tame and docile is because they're growing in a prairie, and not actually getting their preferred level of water. I believe they reach menace status when they are introduced to a waterway. I have no idea whether or not this tree is banned here or not, and it seems more invasive on the Western slope, but I wouldn't ever plant one as they are so messy. Always dropping little branches, or pieces of bark; in the spring it produces drifts of pollen and then the "olives"! Little hard, crunchy things strewn everywhere for most of the summer/fall. I also agree that the scent is wonderful, from a distance! I think having them lining my property would be extremely overpowering, and allergy producing! So Storey, I think you made the right choice even esthetically. Also, if you've got kids, these are no fun to climb! Nasty thorns everywhere! Lara

Hi Pagan, I agree with everyone.. Let they dry out before you bring them inside. Even with Gritty Mix. Mine are in the same mix and I will stop watering the way I usually do with mine. They are put in my sunroom, but will still drop leaves and eventually become dormant. Even the ones that I try and keep going under T -5 lights , still drop leaves and some will then get spider mites. So I will probably not worry about them growing under lights.. They are fine In The winter just relaxing. But, I am one who will give a little drink depending on the size of the tree once a month. Just a little. They still have live roots, so I will give 1/4 to 1/2 cup each.. Again, depending on the size of the container. ( because they are in the Gritty Mix, it will drain Fast too!) I like Ricks recipe .. I also like to spray fish emulsion on them a few weeks before I bring them inside. The fish Emulsion stinks.. So be careful!! But it does help eliminate any critters... Good luck!! Take care, Laura

Thanks for the generous suggestions, everybody. bubba62, I'm concerned that you're right about bletillas and hellebores (especially the caulescent ones) not getting enough sun to flower in areas like what I'm working with, and neither genus has a lot of ornamental value without flowers. Iris japonica is an excellent recommendation and a good example of exactly the kind of tip I was looking for. It's a plant that I've never grown in my yard, but that I've always admired elsewhere. I think it will provide nice semi-evergreen foliage, occasional flashy flowers, and kind of a spreading groundcover effect, even in dark shade. Cool. I also agree with your assessment of Illicium henryi as a choice selection, but unfortunately, I don't know of any nurseries around here that offer them in anything larger than 3-gallon pots, so I'll probably have to stick mainly with my old standby, I. floridanum 'Halley's Comet.' Tricyrtis, Saruma, Asarum, Disporum, Disporopsis, Speirantha (my favorite), Trillium, etc., etc., etc. are all worthy suggestions, but for now I think I'm going to focus just on larger, more substantial plants as I lay out the structure of the new beds, and then go back later and fill in the gaps with smaller little perennials like those. jeff_al, I agree completely about Pachysandra procumbens, although I find its slow spread almost as frustrating as the aggressively rapidity of P. terminalis. Still, a better all-around choice, and I've put it on my list. ncdirtdigger, leatherleaf viburnum is another great example of exactly what I was looking for with this post. It's another plant that I have never grown and had sort of forgotten about, but I have seen it prospering even in very heavy shade. And I think it's really pretty, too, although I've known some people to be repulsed by the droopy, wrinkly texture of the foliage. Aucubas were already on my list, but definitely worth another mention as indispensable elements of the deep shade landscape in this part of the country. I'm not sure if winter daphne will get enough sunlight to flower in any of the areas I'm working on, but I love it so much that I think it I'll give it a try. If nothing else, I know that it's one of the few shrubs that won't be bothered at all by the extreme root competition that it will face from the maples and sweetgums in the wooded portion of the new beds. birdannelady, aren't fatsias terrific plants? I can't imagine having a dark, shady garden around here without it. I've already bought and planted two in my new beds, and may get more as the layout continues to evolve. Which variegated osmanthus do you have? My usual go-to favorite one is 'Goshiki,' which is gorgeous in light to moderate shade, but loses a lot of its color in heavy shade. Maybe other variegated varieties are better-suited to these conditions. What kind of acanthus are you growing? I like acanthus, but I don't really think of them as plants for dense shade. But I don't have a lot of experience with them, and I haven't really experimented with them very much. You're also exactly right about competition from tree roots being as big a problem as the shade itself. And I too have faced the catch-22 of the situation where each and every thing that we as gardeners do to provide good conditions for the roots of the plants we plant (soil amendments, fertilizer, supplemental watering, etc.) also end up promoting the roots of nearby trees to invade the hole and compete with your new plant. Some trees seem to be particularly bad (magnolias, river birches, and the worst: red maples), but most trees pose this problem more or less. It's a conundrum that I've never solved if you have any tips about how to cope with that paradox, I'd love to hear it. Nonetheless, I'm a big fan of edgeworthias, too, and in fact I bought one the other day for the new bed. Hopefully I can find a spot for it where it'll hold its own. Anyway, thanks again for all the help. I've begun acquiring some plants, but I continue to add to my list of others to consider for inclusion. In a lot of cases, I think the thing to do is just to find which plants will work there through some trial and error. But if anybody has any more suggestions or tips, please keep 'em coming. I really appreciate it.

Thanks all!! Samantha - As for the variety of azalea, we were thinking either Autumn Angel (white) or Autumn Chiffon (light pink with darker center). Both are dwarf and should only get to be 3x3. I was leaning more towards the white just for a neutral color, although I already have the dark pink from the Knock-Out roses. I *think* they may be hardier in the full sun. Yardvaark - Thanks so much for the design ideas! As for that Osmanthus (& holly), I like the idea of making it more into a tree - but I have some questions about how to go about doing so! We bought this house 2 yrs ago, and of course inherited the landscaping. The previous owners clearly didn't do much in the way of yardwork/landscaping, so both the Osmanthus and the holly on the opposite side had gotten quite large. The holly was trimmed in a cone shape and the Osmanthus was circular. I just recently trimmed several feet, again, off of each shrub, and made the holly into a (very poorly shaped) ball to match the Osmanthus. If I had to guess, there was a holly on the right side at one time too (there are some shoots that keep trying to come up), but it must have been replaced with this Osmanthus. As a native Virginian, Osmanthus isn't something I'm familiar with because I assume it's a little too chilly there for them. However we lived in coastal AL for a few years before moving here and I was quite fond of the very fragrant "tea olives," which now I know were a type of Osmanthus! But anyway, I've taking a photo of the trunk of that Osmanthus...to make it into a tree, I guess we would prune off the lower limbs - and the same for the holly? Here's the backside of the Osmanthus (which seems to me to be a large mass of trunks): This is the holly on the left side: Both of these have "holes" on the in/back side where the previous old laurel shrubs that were in front of the house had grown too large. Now, if I am successful in making the Osmanthus & holly into a tree form, plant either the azaleas or compact hollies both under the inside window, and under those two new "trees"?