None are invasive here. We have R. californica (several cultivars), R. alaternus and R. frangula. The alaternus seeds a tiny bit - and I really mean infrequently. I have rarely found a seedling from any of the others.

Mary, where are you located? We lived in the Chicago area until 2007, and Glossy Buckthorn (cathartica) is one reason I was happy to move. It is a viciously invasive species up there, so bad that the Cook County Forest Preserve District was in a panic because it was taking over the forests. We had a thicket of it at the back of our yard and it spread and reseeded, choking out anything planted near it -- even trees. It also seeded everywhere.

I've read mixed reviews about the Fine Line cultivar (frangula), but after my experience with Rhamnus spp, I wouldn't plant anything that was fathered by a Glossy Buckthorn.

If anyone is still checking this, I can attest that Fine Line buckthorn is completely non-invasive and does not re-seed or spread. I've had 2 planted around my patio for almost 10 years with zero problems. They are beautiful shrubs, narrow compact habit with feathery foliage. Mine are now about 8 feet tall by 1.5 feet wide, perfect for some screening of the patio.

depends on your area, fine line is sterile and doesn't seed so you should be fine with it.

The presence or absence of "any problems" in your yard has nothing whatever to do with whether a given plant species is invasive or not. Thus, ckerr's certainty is unwarranted. Even plants which seem to have no part of the invasive potential can still be contributing pollen to other, invasive types nearby. Ecological invasiveness is not something that happens in your yard....it happens across a region.

I'm with mulchmama on this-I would not plant any Rhamnus save for an actual native type, given the absolute disaster that is common( R. cathartica) and glossy ( R. frangula) in certain areas. So many other plants, why risk it?

With regards to Rhamnus frangula Fine Line specifically: "Seed development is unusual, with the few seeds that are
produced being non-viable. Species plants (R. frangula) have
limited value in the landscape in large part because they are weedy and
self-seed. In contrast, FINE LINE is neither weedy nor invasive, but is
valued as a restrained and versatile columnar accent. ‘Ron Williams’ is
the cultivar name, but plants are now primarily being sold under the
trademark name of FINE LINE. U. S. Plant Patent PP14,791 issued May 18,
2004."

However, it is still restricted from sale in certain areas.

Heh, I know Ron Williams quite well and was basically ready to choke him when he introduced this thing. Gal, perhaps you'd have to live where I do and see whole woodlots utterly taken over by this ultra shade-tolerant POS to quite get the point that we just do not and did not need another type of buckthorn.

All that said, Ron's a good plantsman and has introduced many a rose cultivar to the market and just generally has really pushed the introductions of numerous hosta and other varieties. I won't choke him because of those latter items, but the buckthorn is ridiculous....in all respects. Finally, it may be a pollen contributor for the two well-understood invasive menaces we've got here.

I ripped all of my Fine Line out because they were awful - tatty looking, too long without leaves and awkward. Deciduous, whereas our native Rhamnus (now Frangula - does that mean that Rhamnus frangula is now Frangula frangula?) are all evergreen. I wonder if it looks better in other places or if in other places where it is grown there are not the same alternatives? I was frankly astounded that anyone got this patented given its scraggly appearance, but I put it down to my climate not being its best location.

Yes, Ron lives in Suamico, Wisconsin. Eh........that ain't zone 9!

Fine Line is quite popular here for an interesting columnar accent. Grows well and is not invasive (nor are any other Rhamnus) in this area. I like it very much, had it planted in my previous garden and have used it numerous designs. Less dry and hot than Sara's zone 9, however. I do have a preference for Rhamnus alaternus 'Variegata' (or 'Argenteovariegata') though - evergreen and immensely prunable for a good hedge.

I guess the moral to this story should be that invasiveness is usually restricted to a region or location. Sometimes that region or location can be quite widespread but it does not necessarily mean that the plant in question should necessarily be considered equally invasive everywhere. Climate and growing conditions have a big impact. When in doubt, check your local invasive plant authority......every state has one.

So...I...should...take my hands....away from...Mr. William's....neck? OK-got it! Besides, I hardly ever choke people.

All of the R. californica grow here (no surprise) and there are some very nice cultivars. R. alaternus also, both green and variegated. 'John Edwards', the most commonly available green cultivar, seeds a bit but in no way problematicaclly.

Interesting conversation...as I said in another recent thread, 'Fine Line' is certainly an acquired taste. But I consider it pretty in many ways, especially in fall when the turning yellow seems to make the thread like appearance more noticeable. Maybe in California, with more of panoply of leaf textures already available to you (you could grow Podocarpus, after all, even the wondrous South African ones) it seems less distinctive than it does here.

No seedlings here, this being a place where camellias, yews, hollies, Picea abies, hemlocks and Japanese maples self-seed and germinate, sometimes abundantly so! Certainly seem sterile.

buckthorn isn't invasive everywhere, it just depends. 'fine line' is sterile so you can plant it in areas even where other buckthorns are considered invasive.

I'm the one who re-started this conversation, and despite the off-hand comment that my conclusions based on 10 years experience with 2 of these plants in my landscape were "unwarranted," I want to reiterate what I said for anyone considering this very useful plant. In my Zone 5a Michigan suburban landscape, and according to my 10 years of personal observation as well as the Michigan invasive plant list and every nursery site selling this plant, Fine Line buckthorn is NON-INVASIVE, develops few seeds, and any seeds it does produce are non-viable. In particular, my comment was directed at the 2013 post automatically associating Fine Line with other invasive buckthorn cultivars and perpetuating the doubts we still see today about the claim that Fine Line seeds are non-viable. Now 12 years after this plant was patented and a decade in my landscape, I can attest that in my experience the claims are true, Fine Line is perfectly behaved, and it will not re-seed in your landscape. Moreover, the Fine Line has not started producing seeds by cross-pollinating with the handful of common buckthorn I've had the displeasure of removing from my back tree line. With respect to why anyone would plant Fine Line when there are "so many other plants," the merits of this plant in a northern landscape are numerous and hard to match: a) extremely cold hardy (listed low range varies from Zone 2-3); b) deer resistant (deer have sampled nearly everything in my yard but have never touched the Fine Line); c) full to part sun locations (some even list as part shade; mine are in about 6 hours of direct sun); and d) drought tolerant. Not to mention the appearance that I personally love, with a very narrow, upright habit that works well in tighter spaces and/or as a privacy screen, plus feathery leaves that turn yellow in autumn. If I did it right there should be a picture of my two, now 8x2 feet Fine Line next to the patio. Anyway, I'm obviously a big fan of this plant and wanted to share my experience to help others considering it. Which I thought was the point of this website.

You are more than welcome to share your enthusiasm for specific plants, and I always appreciate hearing other gardener's experiences, but not everyone will share the positive feelings based on their particular experiences, so you will get a combination of positive and negative responses.

I interpreted WItom's comment about invasiveness as partly a general comment intended toward general education that what you see in your own yard/landscape isn't an indication of invasiveness. It's what happens when seeds leave your yard. While it seems from several comments that this isn't an issue with Fine Line since it doesn't set viable seed, often other posters have asserted that something isn't invasive since it doesn't seed around in their own yard, while the definition of invasivness is the plant's behavior when seeds of non-natives carried by critters (often birds), water or wind begin growing in wild areas and displacing natives.

All this handwringing about invasives seems pointless. Yes, of course it would be better if Buckthorn and Amur Honeysuckle were never introduced to North America, but they are here...by the millions. I've got Burning Bush popping up in my woods at a frightening rate, but it is still sold at just about every nursery or big box retailer in the area. Why is that? Is it because nurseries aren't aware of its invasive tendency? Hardly. I think we all under$tand exactly why this is so.

Here's the question: Does it even matter at this point? It seems the horse is out of the barn so to speak, but I certainly respect those who are putting up the good fight. I'm slowly eradicating Buckthorn on my property, but it runs rampant on my neighbors...along with Amur Honeysuckle. It's a sickening feeling.

I agree with maackia, I planted autumn olive. it isn't affecting the environment because I pick the berries for food. The invasion started in 1830, you can't stop it. let nature take it's course. I still don't like callery pear and ailanthus ;), but autumn olive as well as buckthorn has potential.

"Here's the question: Does it even matter at this point?"

As I've suggested before, I think sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It depends on the weed, and on the context.

Take the Northeast Corridor for example, the densely populated area from DC to Boston. Millions of people want to have the American lawn of scalped crabgrass. They want to have shopping centers and highways and high speed railroad lines that are really not that high speed. (I make this joke because I don't live too far from Amtrak's ROW, and I've observed a number of interesting weeds growing along it) Ergo, breaks in the forest boundary have to be created. They will be there forever. These are 'unnatural'.

In this context, it makes total sense to make decisions based on factors other than nativity. Something is going to try to be a ground cover and climb trees in such a forest edge. Poison ivy is the main native invader in this niche. European Ivy is a competitor. I see no problem with favoring the Hedera ivy in this niche. First of all, again, the niche existing is the real problem, not the plant that invades it. PI is obviously noxious. So, sure if you have some 50,000 acres of virgin woodland in central PA that is being invaded by ivy, that could be a problem. I've personally never seen it invade remote, old growth seeming areas of forest...but if it is doing so, fine, remove it from them. But I think the people who try to get rid of it in the inner suburbs are crazy. Something else is just going to take its place...and there's a good chance it will be a horrible native like poison ivy or Smilax. But again it depends on the weed itself. From what I've seen Asian Celastrus is 20X as virulent as Ivy. I've seen them germinating so thick in the woods they practically form a "lawn". I CAN imagine that quickly invading any and every snag opening in any forest. They strangle small trees, and probably big ones eventually. They grow much, much faster than ivy. Probably even more odious than Ailanthus, in my opinion.

" Trouble is, lots of folks don't do nuance."

Pretty much sums up our culture right now, but let's not go any further into that! Good response, thanks.

David and Tom, get down from that ivory tower! We are way past the point(s) you are making, whatever it is. ;)

We are also past the point of no return for too many exotic plants to name. It will take something like a moonshot to restore this mess, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe any of the presidential candidates are talking about how we're going to defeat the evil plant doers. Discussions on Houzz are not slowing the spread of buckthorn. Even our native birds are conspiring against us in this battle.

Ivory tower? I'm down in the ditch (with a bunch of invasive species!).

LOL. Tom, knowing how fond you are of the Wisconsin State Conifer, I took this pic just for you. OK, I made that up, but it should be the state conifer. Yes, our White and Red Pine are incredible, but no other conifer can handle the extreme cold, deficient soil, and drought like Jack. I believe Governor Walker has actually proposed this designation. ;)

You're a funny guy, Maack! My favorite tree and my favorite politician all in the same sentence!

Central UP of Michigan, north of Watersmeet,and south of Paulding-there are extensive older plantations of jack pine. Those are about the best stands of this tree I've seen. Still don't really like it though, lol!