I'm certainly no stranger to being disagreed with, but to conclude that because two trees died and they had it must have been the freeze/thaw cycles is not logical. Consider the logic, which mirrors what you are saying: Your friend Joe is scratched by a cat while visiting another friend. Two days later he comes down with a fever, then dies. You conclude he died from cat scratch fever, never stopping to consider that it could have been any one of hundreds of other maladies. In the case of the trees you must consider other possibilities and have some means of eliminating them before you adopt a reason that is contrary to known science, which would be a considerable uphill battle. Other possibilities for the demise of the trees: Too wet Too dry The roots were exposed to killing low temps Not enough energy reserves going into winter Insect infestation Disease Others Besides - you relate an anecdote about two trees that died from unknown causes, and an experienced grower relates that >100 trees he overwinters in an unheated garage which see repeated freeze thaw cycles, not to mention the several trees (only the hardiest pines & junipers) that remain outdoors above ground all winter and that see dozens or repeated freeze/thaw cycles do NOT suffer ill effects from the freeze/thaw, so logic tells us, even w/o science, that the likelihood of my observation being the more accurate is much greater. Now - getting to the science ..... this is a copy/paste job from something I contributes to another thread a while back: Commonly, each species of plant has a general range of cold-hardiness. Within species and cultivar, cold-hardiness is genetically determined. That is to say that a plant that is propagated from cuttings or tissue culture will have the same ability to resist cold as the parent plant. Plants cannot "develop" a greater degree of cold-hardiness by repeated or prolonged exposure to cold, even after 100 years (trees). If we pick any plant at random, it may or may not be able to withstand freezing temperatures. The determining factor is the plants ability to prevent freezing of bound water. Bound water is the water inside of cells. There are actually three kinds of water to consider when we discuss "freezing". The water held in soil - When this water freezes, and it can freeze the soil mass solid, it doesn't necessarily kill the plant or tissues. Then there is free or unbound water, also called inter-cellular water. This is water that is found in plant tissues, but is outside of living cells cells. This water can also freeze solid and not kill the plant. The final type of water is bound water or intra-cellular water. If temperatures drop low enough to freeze this water, the cell/tissue/plant dies. This is the freeze damage that kills plants. Fortunately, nature has an antifreeze. Even though temperatures drop well below freezing, all plants don't die. In hardy plants, physiological changes occur as temperatures drop. The plant moves solutes (sugars, salts, starches) into cells and moves water out of cells to inter-cellular spaces in tissues. These solutes act as antifreeze, allowing water in cells to remain liquid to sometimes extremely low temperatures. The above is a description of super-cooling in plants. Some plants even take advantage of another process to withstand very low temps called intra-cellular dehydration. The roots of your trees can stay frozen for extended periods or go through multiple freeze/thaw cycles w/o damage, so long as the temperature does not fall below that required to freeze intra-cellular water. If roots remain frozen, but temperatures remain above killing lows, dessication is the primary concern. If the tree is able to take up water, but temperatures are too low for the tree to grow and make food, stored energy becomes the critical issue. Dormant and quiescent trees are still using energy from their reserves (like a drain on a battery). If those reserves are depleted before the tree can produce photosynthesizing mass, the organism dies. There are a number of factors that have some affect on the cold-hardiness of individual plants, some of which are length of exposure to seasonal cold, water availability (drought stressed plants are more cold tolerant), how recently planted/repotted, etc No one can give a definitive answer that even comes close to accurately assessing the temperature at which bound water will freeze that covers the whole species. Unbound water is of little concern & will usually freeze somewhere around 28*. Some material will be able to withstand little cold & roots could freeze/die at (actual) root temperatures as warm as 25-27*. Other plants may tolerate much colder actual root temperatures - as low as 10*. There's just no way of knowing unless you have a feeling for how cold-tolerant the genetic material the plant was derived from might be, and finding out is expensive (from the plant's perspective). ;o) Another example of this genetic variance is that trees found growing and fruiting well closer to the equator need no chill time, while other trees, derived of genetic stock from a more northerly provenance may need a period of chill to grow with optimum vitality in the subsequent growth period/cycle. It's wise to remember that root death isn't instantaneous at one particular temperature. Roots succumb to cold over a range of chill with cultural conditions affecting the process. The finest roots will die first, and the slightly thicker and more lignified roots will follow, with the last of the roots to succumb being the more perennial and thickest roots. Since any root death is a setback from an energy allocation perspective, and root regeneration takes valuable time, it's probably best to keep actual root temperatures in the 25-40* range as long as we can when the tree is resting, even though the organism as a whole could tolerate much lower temperatures. Even well established trees become very much like cuttings if all but the roots essential to keep the tree viable are lost to cold. Regeneration of roots is an expensive energy outlay and causes the trees to leaf out later than they normally would and shortens the natural growth period and reduces the potential increase in biomass for the next growth cycle and perhaps beyond. Sorry for the detour, Joann. The 5" liner will be fine. I use shallow bulb pans almost exclusively. Use a soil that drains VERY well, and try to be sure the bulbs are not touching when you plant. The volume of soil in the container is an insignificant factor. A larger volume only increases the length of time it takes for the soil to fall to the same temperature as the surrounding air. It doesn't change how low the actual soil temperature will eventually drop to, which is the critical issue. FWIW - large containers resting on the ground do gain some advantage from geothermal heat, but in the case of tulips, it wouldn't be enough to ensure their survival. Take good care. Al

It is kind of difficult to tell what kind of fungus or bacterial growth your plant has from the description. It is most likely botyris but it could be crown rot. The tuber may be rotted where you cannot see it. I would unpot it and see if there is any rot. Cut away any mushy spots and treat it with a fungicide like Dipel. Avoid damaging any good growing tips or eyes. If you cannot use a fungicide, put the tuber in a 10% bleach solution. That would be 1 part bleach, 10 parts water.Soak the tuber several minutes then let it dry. Repot in good soil, not the original soil. One thing that can prevent botyris is moving air. The fungus can't grow if the air drys it out. Use a fan to circulate the air. Sandy

equinecpa, sorry I meant to address the "When question". I have taken my semi-tropical plants in already. I always think, because of all the winterizing of the pond etc, "do the plants now, before it becomes miserably cold outside and the job becomes a chore that becomes a PIA!" I keep some of my Taro in their pots, the others I split, if needed and re-pot them. Some I leave dry in their pot all winter, in a cool area of the basement, the others I keep under fluorescent lights in a warmer part of the basement [50/60°F] along with the other semi-tropical plants, i.e, Papyrus and African Sword. I give the plants under the light water once a week to keep them moist, they produce a few leaves all winter. Some folks have them as house plants, it is up to the individual. Have a can of insect spray handy, even if you change the soil [or pebbles in your case], there is a big chance you will bring in some little flying critter's eggs that will hatch over winter. Once you have your pots situated in the rubber maid container,if you place a clear plastic leaf bag over the plants, held up with some type of frame to make a plant tent. You can de-bug the plants with a spray of the bug killer. Cut a couple of slits in the top of the plastic tent to allow condensation to escape. If you decide to keep the clear cover over the plants make sure that the plants are getting enough air circulation within the plastic tent or they could rot. Hope this helps, "Horton"

I will look into creeping red fescue--have never heard of it. Would you happen to know the "proper" name? Will also google it. Will also look for Ohio spiderwort. Also, I'm curious about the rye grass. I've read of that in vegetable garden books. That is a definite attraction to me. Doesn't it also improve the soil? I did hear recently of a couple in Lindsborg, Kansas about 70 miles from here who gave up their traditional lawn for a native grass that is bluish in color and gets 4-6 inches tall. I will try to find a way to get in touch with them. If it is dependent on sun, cannot use it. I had areas of my buffalo reseeded and it is fraught with weeds. My neighbor went to a nursing home, and the nephew who looks after the place is a farmer with no time, and let the lawn go wild, so I am getting the effects--that plus an abundant amount of rain this spring are the two causes, I believe. I have cats who are indoor/outdoor cats and try never to use herbicides, so I have spent hours weeding and nursing the buffalo along. The buffalo area is quite large and is around the sides and old front of our house. The new front is in the back of our house and I have a small area of fescue (forgive me for that!) and many perennial plants. But should the buffalo never recover, I sure would like to find a native grass. Thanks for your replies. Alleycallie