We don't know where the OP is, but Zone 9 is pretty far south.

I too am a bit confused by this pile, but I still suspect it is just beyond its very hot stage and would need much more high-N materials to heat up. But it doesn't really need to, if it had manure and it got hot, start a new one and let it finish till spring.

A picture would tell 1000 words about what's going on in there, though.

Ammonia is the origin and beginning of life on the Earth (amino acids..) So why it should not be considered organic ?

Do you mean organic or Organic? :-]

Off the top of my head, Nature doesn't collect ammonia in concentrated form in a plastic bottle, for starters.

It also occurs to me that there are many things in nature that no organic gardener (heck, no gardener of any kind) would put into their garden. Lead...petroleum...hot lava...you get the idea. :-]

we use to use Urea in composting where it can be big source of NH3

ammonia is the source for microorganism during degradation

2 - There is NO YEAST in the typical American canned beer. They get
filtered out before bottling or canning. Even if there were bazillions
of yeast cells, beer yeast is not going to break down anything in a
compost heap. It's a specialized fermenter, not a lignin or cellulose
metaboliser.

Agreed, but adding moisture to a compost pile is second only to slug bait as a suitable use for Keystone.

To each his own...I rather like Keystone Ice as a daily swill, much more than some of the other cheap stuff, but that's just me.

I would never pour it on the compost directly though, it's a shame to do that. It should be processed through the human body first for improved economy and best effect. :-D

@migdad: You are correct of course, ammonia is part of the nitrogen cycle in soil. The question in the original thread was about how natural it was to use concentrated liquid ammonia in the garden or whether it could be considered Organic gardening. I'm no expert but I think it would be considered a chemical fertilizer just like ammonium nitrate or urea.

Liquid Ammonia can be injected in the soil but you know converted to gas but we said in composting ,microorganisms need it to build their bodies when the composting completed we should remove it out because it become toxic killing say mushroom .in other side if we use Urea with composting it would be great sources of Ammonia and then we need times to remove it out of composts

I saw the videos and the magic supposedly comes from the sugar, yeast, and ammonia using a clever sounding cool gimmick.

So if i didn't want to waste a good beer and soda, what would a good enough recipe of the basic ingredients cypher down to in measurements. Or an ideal recipe?

... I have jars of yeast in my shelves at all times for bread baking.
... .I have regular table sugar by the lbs..
.... I have bottles of household ammonia

Anyone have an idea as how to mix?
I am a KISS person.

If you're "a KISS person", there's nothing simpler than using waste materials and the microscopic living things that are already freely available in the environment to make something as useful as compost. There isn't any better "magic" than that, and it's not for sale!

That bakers yeast will do little in a compost pile. Brewers yeast will do little in a compost pile. These are fungi and it is bacteria that are the primary digesters of the material too be composted.

Table sugar will do little in a compost pile. The bacteria that digest the material in a compost pile need Nitrogen to function.

Ammonia is convertible to Nitrogen and might be something to add to a compost pile if the Carbon to Nitrogen ratio is out of balance.

The best composting tutorial has ben shut down, but this one is close.

http://greenactioncentre.ca/content/composting-basics-and-getting-started/

kimmq is kimmsr

Thanks,
I am doing about all that I can for my compost bin except that I do have a shortage of hardwood leaves, or the necessary carbon / brown shortage as I understand it.
I have mostly St Augustine grass clippings and a small amount of long leaf pine needles and a fair amount of the typical kitchen,, vegetable, egg shell, coffee grounds, scraps.

I have been skeptical of the soda pop, beer and ammonia thing anyway it being a probable "sounds cool and clever" gimmick but that would be okay too if it really worked and really beneficial to the compost.
I was a little leery when I couldn't find anything else online about a basic recipe that would suffice as I asked here. Or a real non gimmick recipe.
I might look into the ''urea'' approach which I am not familiar with at all.

I might also try to find a neighbor or other local that does have clean and healthy hardwood leaves that will allow me to harvest this fall to mulch and add to my bin.

Thanks again, any other "cheap or free" suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Do you have a municipal source for wood chips or mulch materials? Your city or county may offer this material for free or a nominal fee, depending on what they have to dispose of - leaves, downed wood, etc.

I live in a small town, about 1500 pop. in a rural county and I should be able to find most anything beneficial as far as wood shavings or chips along with leaf material. I haven't been living here but about three years so will need to ask around from all the local long time old timers.
Not finding anything is not as big of a concern as locating the good clean and healthy non toxic kind of material.

I don't really follow the proper ratio for greens and browns and I don't find myself lacking for compost. I compost what I have available and let time and nature take its course. I help it along but turning it and keeping it moist but that is about it. I live in the Northeast and have annual cycles of growth and dormancy. During the spring I have early grass clippings and left over fall leaves. During the summer its mostly grass with some weeds I have plucked. During the fall it is mostly fall leaves with some grass and dead summer plants. Come winter it is mostly leaves and trimmed bushes and branches. It all becomes compost with time/moisture/air.

jlstevenstoo the best thing you can do is start.

I understand your concern about toxins. The most risky thing to get from others is grass clippings, so if you collect those you may want to ask what they are using on their lawns. For what it's worth, leaves and wood chips have much less chance of having chemicals on them. It's rare that shade trees are sprayed with anything. I collect leaves from wherever with no worries. Also, the vigorous microbial action in the compost pile degrades most anything that goes in, except for a couple persistent herbicides that are mostly used on pastures and can show up in livestock manures. Typical lawn chemicals and garden sprays are degraded fairly rapidly. Of course it's your choice if you want to simply avoid them entirely.

As for using urea, it's a super-green so if you already have a shortage of browns it's the opposite of what you need.

I have been having a nice compost bin every summer for three summers now but this summer I thought I'd get more into a perfect compost for next spring and of course free and KISS,, very simple
I moved into an old 100 y/o house three years ago and I think that I have found the only decent sized garden area that an old greasy garage or out building wasn't at anytime in the lots history so I want to really fix and cultivate that area for the perfect garden area,, yea right.

But anyway that is the want for a good toxic free compost and being retired I have nothing else to do but play around a compost project. I do have a lot going on and the compost is just a side thing that's fun too.
Finding good leaf source this fall is all I have left for the perfect bin I think. No cool gimmicks for me I think

.

I think it would be fun to live in an old house. I'd be getting a metal detector and looking for coins. Even trash piles are interesting. Outhouse pits? There might be several. After a century they are just dark organic soil. Usually you can find bottles in them.

A Plan B, just a thought and not meant to hijack the ammonia thread but a couple of months ago I brewed up 110 gallons of cow manure tea, two 55 gal drums plumbed together, that I have all but decided not to use on 25 tomato plants that I set out this spring.

I don't see any problem right now with just using all 110 gallons of the tea, and the remnants of the tea's manure on the compost pile just to get rid of the tea and maybe improve the compost.
Any thoughts about layering the tea in while I am turning the pile next time? Or will I just be wasting my tea with not much improvement to the compost.

I actually need to relocate or use the barrels of tea anyway to enlarge my compost bins with all the grass clippings that I keep adding in weekly. Probably about a cubic yard of fresh clippings and a few weeds every week.
I have an unlimited supply of free green manure a few miles away and the tomato plants are looking good without the tea I think. .

Compost tea is just fine for wetting a compost pile I suppose, if it's dry. Probably would be best to use it on something that's growing. If not the garden, the lawn, flower beds, shrubs etc. Curious why you are not using it on the tomatoes but that's secondary I guess.

Are you adding some browns in with all those grass clippings? If not, yikes.

No, no browns to speak of. I have none to add but I need to start trying to locate some asap.
I did ride around town late this morning and did spot a few patches of thick timber that looked clean and where no one would probably care if I did trespass and rake up a few large garbage bags full.
I do have a large bale of hay that I bought for dog bedding that I could use and toss into the compost so that will help if I use it for that.
I'd like to try to do it 100% free but that's just a DIY silly game and challenge that I'm playing with myself. I'm even in the first stages of building a totally free 12'x12' pallet wood storage shed in the back yard. I have all the pallets scrounged up that I need and just started the putting things together. I will probably have to buy the metal roofing, unless of course I can find used tin when roofing time comes. Or even use the pallet wood for wood shakes. I'm 71 y/o so wood shakes, water seal treated or painted, should last me the rest of my life.

My tomatoes are looking pretty good without anything at this point so if the manure tea would be more beneficial in the compost I would just as soon use it for that.
With 100 plus gallons of tea I probably have enough tea to do both tomatoes and compost.

Kudos on the pallet building! I built a shop building using a lot of recycled parts so you are a hero in my book.

Find some woodworkers and get sawdust and shavings, or a cabinet/millwork shop. Utility tree trimming crews often will dump chips free. Call your electric utility. Shredded paper and cardboard works in a pinch but it's better to recycle it so it's at the bottom of my list.

Do you have Craigslist where you are?

My closet Craigslist covers a small city about forty miles away from me but covers my area fairly well.

I'm taking photos of the shed project as I go and will set up Photobucket album soon as it really starts to take shape.

Rather than just start piecing the pallets together which would be easier and faster I.m getting out in the weeds with ideas and try to make it appear to look like a scaled down replica of something like an old country church, or rustic old jail house or country store, etc, just to see what happens or how creative I can get, or not get as the case might be.
All the pallets that I have access to are different odd sizes and different woods and that makes it a worse challenge, and slows the project down. If they were all the same and uniform I think it would go a lot smoother as you probably know a lot better than me.

Google images with all the many different projects, some clever and some basic and plain and simple is a good "go to" site for ideas. The pretty part about it, with two unlimited sources of nice new looking pallets I can have a never ending project that I can add on to as I feel as long as the town fathers don't yell, "hey whacko enough is enough"

I hate to mention it but I also have, got really lucky, with access to several acres of free nice looking bamboo, about 3" - 4" size and smaller at base to harvest as much as I want. So far the bamboo has come in handy for free bean poles and tomato sticks, etc every spring but I'm thinking a nice little cheesy 2 stool backyard Tiki Bar is on the list for some day. Google Image that.

To stay on topic I will ride around today and "recon" an easy source of hard wood leaves and rake up and load the trailer with enough to satisfy my needs for a few weeks..

This link might come in handy for the manure minded folks.
http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm
.

I dreamed of a pallet shop building for years, then found 16A of woods with a concrete slab foundation in the center from a house that had burned. It was 3000 sq ft so pallet walls were out. I did cut my own 4x4 oak timbers for the walls though, from local trees. And, we have a 100% pallet outhouse. For the roof you might consider a couple of clear polycarbonate roofing panels, they make them to match the sheet metal roofing so you can slip them in for some great light. They don't get milky like the older plastics. I've had them on since 2010 and still clear as a bell.

Bamboo makes an excellent fence material too. Friends of mine made a backyard fence with treated lumber frame and vertical bamboo strips. Looks awesome.

don't want to be late to the party or anything but have any of you tried this? first off the compost pile gets very hot very quickly. much hotter than a normal pile. this means there is faster break down of organic matter powered by the sugars in the soda and carbohydrates in the beer. plants exposed to this compost grow better than other compost i haven't had any analyzed yet but may in the future.i had a dandelion with an 18 inch leaf after only a few weeks. i like the process as the likelihood of organic contaminants surviving this process is low. an addition of a small amount of a bayer crop science product called serenade [or generic equivalent] will further reduce any organic toxins that may exist in the raw materials. i'm not worried about the ammonia being 'organic' as the process by which it's produced assures it's purity and therefore whether your ammonia comes from a bottle or is a byproduct of animal cellular respiration it's the same NH3. considering toxcrusadr is an environmental chemist i'm quite surprised at his/her stance on this. tox should understand the process by which ammonia is made. there is virtually no room for contamination or contaminates. also some is made with surplus and waste materials where the existing ammonia needs to be removed for environmental considerations or surplus electricity is used to power the process. the 'organic' movement was started to eliminate toxic compounds from food while increasing nutrition and production. since all the ammonia is used in the composting process [as tox knows to preserve usable N in the finished product] ] and if not there will be only very small amounts which will be used in the soil as a source if N by the microbial community. remember it's the microbial community that set up symbiotic relationships with the plants. these relationships feed the plants. we are powered by the same concept. one of the goals of composting is to turn raw organic matter into a microbe rich material ready to join with plants to produce not just food but food that is nutrient dense. just because food is 'organic' doesn't mean it's nutrient dense. that is assumed. remember the compost cannot return the the garden that which it doesn't have in it's raw materials. to me the problem with the 'organic' and 'environmental' movements as they exist today is that many of their devotees have a pronounced tunnel vision. sort of a knee jerk obedience to the perceived without much independent thought. i am surprised that no one has raised an objection to the preservatives in the soda or beer. thy this composting method your garden will love you and you won't die from toxic shock.

tox when it's time to replace that polycarbonate roofing try solexx material it's stronger and gives a better [not clearer just better more pleasant] light especially if your growing anything underneath.

A well-tried organic approach to inoculating compost with ammonia: Drink organic beer first, wait a few hours, then bring to the compost what nature demands.

good approach however, the beer intake needs to be metered to prevent overly diluting the ammonia content in the byproduct stream.

but seriously the impressive thing about this beer ammonia cola concoction is the impressive number of earthworms that appear. i would often have more than a dozen in a shovel full of dirt. worms do more than leave behind castings. their borrows provide airways for very important root aeration as well as water absorption. this could be part of the increased growth observed in it's use. while the above ground parts of a plant need co2 the below ground contingent needs oxygen. before you pass judgement do it you will be surprised.

while beer is actually quite healthful especially in the heat of summer alcohol consumption should be avoided. alcohol is not good for you except for external use. another use for beer is to be put in a pie plate in the garden where it will attract and kill slugs and other deleterious insects i'm going to make another statement that some may disagree with but is true. if you have insect damage to your crops your soil is not right your plants are not healthy enough. properly nourished plants sustain little or no insect damage. with the possible exception of tomato horn worms which can be taken care of by putting a bird bath near or in your garden to attract birds who will spy and eat them.

Without rereading the entire thread, I don't remember being concerned about impurities or contaminants in bottled ammonia. I understand quite well how it is made. I am not actually an Organic gardener and do not advocate strongly for or against. I use some fertilizer, although I minimize it and pay attention to soil tests and actual need. The original question was, is it considered Organic, and the answer was no, it would be a synthetic fertilizer. Organic gardening and farming is not only about contaminants, it is also joined at the hip with sustainability, and synthetic fertilizers including ammonia are not particularly sustainable. Of course it gets even more complicated when a gardener pops in here to ask a question, because they will always have different goals in mind (or may not have them in mind!) and may or may not know what it is they really want to know.

Anyway I am not at all surprised you had tremendous green growth after using it!

you have good points. that's why whenever i use the word 'organic' i put it in a single quote. i figure like in this case it's used in the process and mostly doesn't survive into the in the end product so it's ok. so happy gardening and try a batch of this it may surprise you it fortifies all aspects of plant growth.

My plants could certainly use some fortification. The garden looks pretty sad despite really good rains all summer.

if your soil drains well the rain could have washed the nutrients below the root zone. that's what it sounds like.

Is this post for real? Ammonia is what comes out of us in pee, as the urea naturally hydrolizes. Sounds kinda organic to me, but anything which can be easily described with chemical notation is mightily feared by the organicistas.

"if you have insect damage to your crops your soil is not right your plants are not healthy enough. properly nourished plants sustain little or no insect damage. "

Well, I will beg to disagree with this :-) Insect issues can and will be present regardless of how "good" your soil is. Healthy plants due to a 'healthy' soil may be better able to withstand insect predation but it certainly won't eliminate or reduce the problem. There is no verifiable cause and effect that validates this notion. Insects and insects feeding on plants are just part of the greater scheme of nature and will always be present regardless of how "great" your soil is.

Good healthy soil is reflected by how well your plants bounce back from any damage.

From the article linked below, " Recent studies have shown that plant resistance to insect and disease pests is linked to optimal physical, chemical, and—perhaps most importantly—biological properties of soil (Altieri and Nicholls, 2003; Zehnder et al., 2007).", ie healthy soils.

http://articles.extension.org/pages/18574/managing-the-soil-to-reduce-insect-pests

kimmq is kimmsr

>>Is this post for real? Ammonia is what comes out of us in pee, as the urea naturally hydrolizes. Sounds kinda organic to me, but anything which can be easily described with chemical notation is mightily feared by the organicistas.

Whether a particular product meets accepted standards for Organic gardening simply is what it is. No one here is an 'organicista' simply by virtue of discussing it. My comments on this question certainly don't mean that I fear chemicals, since everything is made of them. As an environmental chemist I'm fairly well informed on the subject.

Regardless of whether one supports its use in the garden, ammonia in a bottle is synthetic fertilizer.

My point was that organic devotees are often repulsed by compounds that are expressed in chemical form, wherever they come from. Ammonia is what comes out of animals, so I'd be hard pressed not to call it organic. I suppose that industrially synthesized ammonia that ends up in bottles in the hydroxide form can be declared inorganic because it has the aura of a factory attached to it, but that H2O that comes out of your tap might similarly be considered inorganic since it doesn't come straight from a lake or creek.

In fact, bottled ammonia should work wonderfully in a garden, though direct application to plants is probably not smart because of it's strong alkalinity. On the other hand, pouring ammonia on your compost would help a lot, for precisely the same chemical reason that manure and urine help a lot. It's the ammonia from manure and urine (from urea hydrolysis) that contributes biologically useful nitrogen to the pile.

"My point was that organic devotees are often repulsed by compounds that are expressed in chemical form, wherever they come from."

You came in to this discussion some 2 years late and apparently did not read the previous postings and do not have much of an idea of what you speak, either.

kimmq is kimmsr

the original discussion i believe was about the use of ammonia in what is termed 'drunken compost' 12 oz beer , 12 oz cola [soda] , 8 oz ammonia in a sprayer set to empty that quart of mix into 20 gallons of water creating a 256:1 final mix. this accelerates the compost process to the point that it can be applied to the garden as a mulch in 2 weeks. increased growth and fruiting are observed. increased worm populations are also observed. the reason for organics is to keep certain toxic compounds out of the food supply. it does not guarantee quality. quality is assumed. we now collide with man's penchant for fanaticism. all chemical fertilizers and compounds not having been created via a biological process or mined out of the earth in some way [some of which are not healthful at all though certified organic. azomite {very high in aluminium} comes to mined] have been termed as toxic compounds which may not be entirely true. the irresponsible use of anything can be harmful. then we have the whole salt index discussion which is more prevalent in soil with low organic matter.which brings another discussion the real culprit is often a lack of organic matter more than anything else. more later

ok i'm not a math major and it was late and i was very tired the total mix ratio is 80:1 not 256:1 just to point the total ratio of ammonia in the final mix is i believe 320:1 since ammonia is 1/4 of the total mix 80x4=320 if my reasoning is correct

I agree with you Greg on the idea that each thing should be considered on its merits rather than whether it's in a 'natural' or 'chemical' pigeon hole. Although I'm not a strictly Organic gardener, I minimize pesticides and fertilizers but I'm not afraid to use them when necessary. I generally avoid concoctions like this one in my own situation because I have plenty of compost, nutrients and worms. I also feel that food products and highly processed stuff like ammonia have a lot of resources tied up in them, so adding them to the compost seems like it's not the highest and best use. I see the compost more as a waste recycling process. But I'm not going to say other people shouldn't do it or that it's bad for the garden. I do want new gardeners/composters to understand those concepts so they can make informed choices, too.

you are absolutely correct on all counts especially the need to study and be as informed as possible to make the best discussions possible there is not one and only one successful way to have a successful garden

Moisture is of utmost impotance. To facilitate good composting we first need an overall moisture content of about 50%. Fresh materials like grass and weeds contain well over 50% water, but dry materials such as paper, straw or dry leaves should be well watered.

Grab a handful of compost and weigh up precisely 100 grams. Microwave for 39 seconds then re weigh and record weight. Continue to do this until no weight is lost. The moisture content is 100 minus the end weight ( ie end weight 45 grams 》 100 - 45 = 55% moisture content ) Desired range is 30-60% moisture.

Moisture is essential for speedy decomposing.

Should say microwavefor 30 seconds. Time is not critical -just microwave at short intervals until dry.

Strong bacterial foods promote bacteria "blooms" which quickly break down organic matter into humus. But this type of compost is strongly bacterial with negligable fungal component and low diversity. A great mulch for brassicas.

microbejack ... that's too much WORK.

You don't need that degree of precision to make compost. All you need is a pile that "feels damp to the touch" about a foot down in the middle after a couple of weeks. And don't put in a thick layer of fresh green anything unless you want stinky slime.

Whether you need to add moisture or protect against added moisture is more a function of your climate and season than your starting materials. Water will migrate from the wet stuff to the dry stuff and it all equalizes.

You're right about that. Damp like a wrung-out sponge is best - not dry, not drippy. I would be very concerned about heating half-finished or nearly finished compost in my kitchen - have you ever read about what happens when you try to sterilize soil in your oven? :-o In any case, how is the average person supposed to weigh precisely 100g of compost pile material anyway? [actually if you had a scale that precise, the amount wouldn't matter, only the before and after weights...but I digresss]