"Cannery Row" is kind of a hoot. I was thinking about it the other day. Intellectual scientist Doc and all his wino bum hangers-on. It's very California to me. It's the way a lot of California beach towns were before the rich people took them over.

I visited Hardy's cottage in Dorsetshire and you can see a bit of where part of his gloomy worldview came from.

Austin has a 'Sweet Juliet' rose, and the code name for WS2K is Ausromeo

Dolly has done wonderful things for childhood literacy in our part of the world.
(I'd rather see an old fashioned rose named for her, though.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Dolly's Imagination Library

It is a wonderful novel -- one of my favorites -- and filled with wisdom and poetry -- but in the climactic scene the five little children hang themselves "because we are too meny [sic]." Or rather the oldest one (aged five or so- if I recall -- he may have been 7 or 9) does it to himself and the little ones. It is hard to get this scene out of one's mind when thinking of the novel -- though we know such tragedies, alas, occur too often -- as in West Virginia Tech among a slightly older crowd.

I would not name a rose "King Lear" -- though it is a wonderful play, containing some of the best poetry ever written -- Or even "Kill Bill" or "Nightmare on Elm Street." But who knows? Tastes change. Perhaps we have reached the stage where "Mothers shall but smile when they behold / Their infants quarter'd with the hands of war; / All pity choked with custom of fell deeds" (William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar) and anything goes, as far as violent imagery is concerned.

Anyway, generally I do agree that Austin has the right idea in his names -- not least in commemorating Hardy. Just perhaps not this time.

I should have named this thread "roses named after depressing characters"
"Hurin" comes to mind. The Children of Hurin by Tolkien was NOT a happy book. Must have been written during some notorious English weather. Hope nobody names a rose that. I still think the Lord of the Rings has some lovely, different names that would do justice to a rose.
Meanwhile Cannery Row is asking for a reread. I had a good giggle from that story the first time. Grapes of Wrath, not so much.

Triple B, I'm a Tolkien fan myself but I would agree that The Children of Hurin would put him right up there with writers of depressing books. However his other works do not qualify. Lots of sorrow but happiness as well.

Rosefolly

I find the Hobbit is a delight. And Lord of the Rings is a hard act to follow. His poetry within the trilogy is really something.
The name Rosie Cotton (Sam's love)would be cute for a rose. Also there is Arwen and Eowyn, both beautiful courageous female characters that would do a rose merit in literary names.
Tolkien is a literary genius. Very eloquent. He deserves roses for his legendary work.

I can understand Home Run for a name. A great home run makes you want to jump up and shout for joy. Maybe that's how the hybridizer feels. I don't watch sports all the time but when I get over to a Angels or Ducks game, I always have a good time. Maybe the hybridizer felt it was a home run achievement for him. I hope it wasn't just a made up name by the people in marketing.

I would find it hard to resist at least one rose name from Middle Earth.
About Romeo, there is a hard to find rose called Old Romeo.
About the Thomas hardy names. Austin's nursery is in Hardy country.

Monarda, I can respect your sensitivity to the awful images of the dead children in Jude, but I don't think that naming a rose after the book had anything to do with thinking that anything violent should be condoned or commemorated. I need to reread Jude but feel pretty sure that Hardy was not saying that the tragic things in his books were well and good. Anything but! If I named a rose after Hester Prynne ( The Scarlet Letter by Hawthorne) it would not be because I thought what she went through was a good thing. It would be because she had such courage and even though publicly scorned, she chose to care and contribute. Or I'd want to commemorate Hawthorne for his work. There must be things in Jude that transcend the tragedies. Like I said, I'll have to reread it. I reread Tess of the d'Urbervilles recently and though I loved it on first reading, I got much more out of it recently. Hardy doesn't depress me. It is more depressing to me that he gave up writing after being criticised for writing Jude. There's a recent biography of Hardy, THomas Hardy: A Biography Revisited by Michael Millgate that I want to read. Apparently some of his books were semi-autobiographical.

Speaking of John Steinbeck...I got bogged down in reading The Grapes of Wrath years ago but am going to give it another try, because a lot of times a book will seem very different at another time. I finished reading a biography of Steinbeck a few days ago and was impressed with how much he cared about less fortunate people. He spent two days without sleep slogging through mud working in the migrant worker camps in CA. I think his books grew out of real caring. His mother -in- law despised him for associating with riffraff.
When he first had success as a writer he was asked for a blurb about himself for the dust cover on his book. He didn't want to put anything about himself, because he said in the process of writing he had to submerge himself so something else could come through. It wasn't about him. I admire that. He was also a passionate gardener.

Linda

Hi Erasmus,

Of course I don't think that Hardy "condoned violence,"
but you just inadvertently made my point when you said you would name a rose, Hester Prynne, and (by implication) not The Scarlet Letter! -- which refers to a punishment for adultery. Anyway, it's a small thing -- but it suggests that whoever named the rose after the book hadn't read it.

For anyone who had read the book, would have probably preferred to see it called Jude Frawley or Sue Bridehead, since they were sympathetic and appealing characters.

But you can't have everything. It is better to have a great book and author commemorated by a beautiful rose than not at all.

Monarda,
I think I see what you mean. I'm also glad to have a rose named Jude the Obscure.
Linda

Linda, East of Eden by Steinbeck was good too. The movie changed things and left things out I noticed. Not many movies do justice to the origional books. However because of that age-old complaint I think directors and screen writers are trying harder to stick to the story.
Even in my beloved Hobbit, the old animated movie changed the beginning. The book had a much better, more humorous one.
Still, Bilbo is not really a ROSE name is it. Gandalf MAYBE...
Grapes of Wrath was depressing but so was The Red Pony.

another one of Austin's famous names from historical people.

Here is a link that might be useful: Saint Swithum

I'd love a rose named Lothlorien. Or Rivendell. Or The Shire.

Reading all this reminds me how low most of our mass culture (television and films) has sunk. Shakespeare in his time was popular culture. So were the Greek plays. So was Dickens. Our progressive forbears of a hundred and fifty years ago would be amazed if they could see where we've ended up.

Melissa

Like, uh... Desperate Housewives?

What an interesting thread. I have Jude, The Obscure and it's one of my best roses - deserves a place of honor in my garden. I am also a big fan of Thomas Hardy and have read most of his novels, including Tess and Jude. Jude is one of the most depressing books I have ever read. Beautifully written, but utterly depressing. I simply do not feel how come such a light, fruit scented and gloriously Summerly rose can be connected to this tragic book. I love the fact that DA gave the book's name to the rose, but I feel it should have been to a darker, somber one, maybe a very deep purple or a red. The soft apricot shade of Jude does not seem right to me when compared to the book. Also, for me Tess should be a pink rose, not a reddish sort of one. Call me crazy, but I have these pictures of the characters in my mind and they have these colors :-)

Steinbeck's Cannery Row is my favorite book from him (now don't get me started on the film Hollywood has done from it). Wouldn't mind a rose by that name either.

Talking about depressing books, even though Edith Warton was mentioned, nobody seemed to mention The Age of Innocence? Pretty gloomy finale too, no? On the category of more recent extremely depressing books, how about Angela's Ashes?

In the end, a rose by any other name...
Eduarda

Well, if there ever is a rose with a Middle Earth-inspired name, I hope I like it because I'll probably grow it whether I do or not.

Rosefolly

I may have to write to Weeks Roses as they are my faves and put a bug in their ear. Shall we start a petition? A Middle Earth series?

I think it would be wrong of me to argue that a book is not depressing, because if you find it depressing, then it is for you. But there are a couple of things that make a stark, tragic, gloomy book a little different from depressing for me. I think the main subtle factor is that the author lovingly cares about the character and makes you sympathetic to them. So whatever they go through, you come to see through their eyes with empathy. Bringing a lot of the ugly or painful things about life to light in a story is to me like lancing an infection. How about Schindler's List or Sophie's Choice? I avoided watching Schindler's List for a long time because I thought I couldn't take it. But I finally mustered up the courage to watch it and am glad I did. Someone I knew said they enjoyed it....I can't see how anyone could enjoy it but it was worth seeing and is important to see.

Triple, I don't see why a rose couldn't be named Bilbo Baggins. Heck, you got Betty Boop.

I think Lothlorien or Rivendell would be mysterious, magical names for roses. Austin sure has plenty of English authors to choose from if he wants to commemorate some more.
Linda

I was at a library discard sale yesterday, and you can get books super cheap. I got Jude the Obscure and Tess of D'uberville for 50cents each.
I suppose I better up my meds when I read them.

I read all those Hardy books and "Far from the Madding Crowd" only it was a long time ago. Now I would find them more depressing than they were then because I fight depression. There were also movies of two, no three, maybe more of them which I rented.

I've also been a fan of George Eliot (and many, many others) and read as many of her books I could find except "Daniel Deroda".

Somebody mentioned Norway. I read every Sigrid Undset book I could get my hands on, but never read Ibsen, maybe one about ducks.

Somehow I seemed to have outgrown novels; I'd rather read other things now that are real even though novels do have a message and are based on reality. I used to be a total bookworm, and now I look back and can't remember much from all those books I read, plus I can't lose myself in them like I used to be able to do. The only exception is I still enjoy Chekov's short stories now and then and Edward Rowe Snow (most of his accounts really happened or were thought by contributors to have happened). Now they should name roses after them :-), only Chekov wrote about goosberries and cherry orchards :-), and most of his works are sad, too.

Jude the Obscure is a truly beautiful rose.

I have started reading Tess of the D'ubervilles. The rogue hasn't seduced her yet but he certainly is giving it the 'old college try'.
I am almost finished readig Jane Eyre.
The old classics are a nice break from modern literature.

Jude (I have 2 side by side) are among my favorites! The fragrance is unusual- grapefruity to my nose. My Judes had a great 1st flush and are now beginning to bloom again. Here in the DEEP south, the succeeding flushes are usually superior b/c the heat eliminates the balling issue that is so bad in the spring. There is actually an open bloom with no brown streaks right now. And all of Abe's buds look promising as well. I know some have said that Jude is a shy bloomer, but my clones from Chamblee's have been great bloomers since the 2nd year. Buff

Very fascinating, finding this thread at this time. I decided I had to read 'Jude' since I was expecting the namesake rose this Spring. I had already read 'Tess' and loved it. Not what happens to Tess, but the story in general and it thinly veiled attack on the societal pressures of the day.

But 'Jude,' well, that's another matter altogether. I really got bogged down in the middle, but kept plugging along. I am sorry the spoiler has already been out regarding the climax of the book, i.e. the children. But the whole thing was awful and macabre.

Erasmus said, "There must be things in Jude that transcend the tragedies. Like I said, I'll have to reread it." I really don't thnk there was anything transcendent or redeeming in the book. IMO, that is. It WAS, as Jean said, the most depressing book I've ever read, and I made it all the way through 'Grapes.' I think I will steer WAY clear of Edith Wharton, thanks for the warning. :o/

Monarda said, "For anyone who had read the book, would have probably preferred to see it called Jude Frawley or Sue Bridehead, since they were sympathetic and appealing characters." I am actually okay with it being the name of the book, since it is actually the main character, as well. I sympathized with Jude the most, but in all didn't find any of them appealing, least of all Sue Bridehead. I thought she was whiny and selfish. But I am known to have a different perspective than many others! ;o)

All that said, I am glad I read it. After hubby and I talked at length about it (he was reading Tess while I was reading Jude) and the subjects of social conformity I felt a little more generous towards the characters.

But I will NEVER recommend this book.

And 'Jude the Obscure' the rose will have an honored place in my garden. Nothing real obscure about IT, right? Maybe that's the point...a tiny effort to erase the obscurity that dogged Jude even to his deathbed.

Jude is on my book pile. Along with some really big James Micheners and a 1340 page monster, Sacajawea.
So yea, maybe before Christmas I will get to it.

Maybe DA named the rose in irony. You are so right, there is nothing obscure about this rose. It is an awesome creation in every way. Buff

triple_b, best of luck on your "classic" venture. Hubby and I grew disillusioned with same-ol'/same ol' modern literature, and have really expanded our brains with the classics, recently. Stick with 'Tess'...sad, but a great read. Start 'Jude'when you have a lot of time and enough sunlight yet to keep you from getting committed at the end of it. :o)

Far From the Madding Crowd is the sunniest and (to my mind)the most satisfying of all Hardy's novels -- though all are wonderful, taken together. There is a terrific movie of it, too, with Julie Christie, though she is not how I pictured Bathsheba Everdene.

Hardy's poetry is also really great. The critics rate it higher and higher with every year that passes, it seems.

Now when are we going to have a rose called "Cranford" - anyone seen that incredible BBC series on Masterpiece theater? The best ever. Even Hardy would have approved, I think, if he had been a woman -- or not as the case may be.

Greenhaven, perhaps you are right. I have Jude in my back yard and like it better every year.

I don´t know who Dolly Parton or Oprah are? But I know Tess of the D'ubervilles, Othello, Jude (Law) the Obscure, Liv Tyler and the Wife of Bath.

Cupshaped roses

Dolly Parton, Modern country and western singer.
http://www.dollyparton.com/

Oprah Winfrey, modern talk show hostess.
http://www2.oprah.com/index.jhtml

To me nither has much substance.

I LOVED the lupin on your blog....

Karyn

I am reading Jude the Obscure now and finished Tess last week. He is a wonderful writer although his stories lean towards the trajic. His insight into human nature is amazing.

Bringing this up again. So many people here now were not on this forum when the discussion took place. I thought it might be of interest.

Thanks for bringing this discussion back up. I am new to rose growing and really love the Austin roses and I was thrilled to see that some of them are named after Thomas Hardy books. He is my favorite author and I read Tess and Return of the Native in high school english class. I don't remember them being too depressing. I was also happy to see a dolly parton rose.

Though Hardy is a downer, I enjoyed reading his work many years ago. I did not, however, enjoy reading Milton, so Austin's Young Lycidas conjures up almost painful memories of the college class where we pored over Lycidas. I would much rather Austin had named that rose "Paradise Lost". What a beautiful name that would be. Diane

This is an awesome thread--thanks so much for reviving it, rosefolly!

And I just want to say a "hear, hear!" to Robert's first post, w-a-a-a-y up at the top--After all, most of us take to our gardens both when we're happy and when we're miserable--it would be nice to have roses whose names reflect an equally broad range of human experience.

How about "Hypatia," for the pioneering Alexandrian female philosopher (yay!) who was beaten to death by a mob of early Christians (darnit)? Or "Paolo e Francesca," for Dante's doomed lovers? Or a pair of roses named after the rebellious and raucous Cleopatra & Marc Antony? I always get cheesed off when I remember that Agamemnon sacrificed his own daughter Iphegenia to secure favorable winds en route to Troy--the poor girl deserves a rose in compensation, no? Or how about the audacious Harold Godwinson, who gets an A++ for his heroic efforts to save his kingdom, but who nevertheless got shot in the eye by a Norman arrow?

Though, admittedly, Diane's idea for a "Paradise Lost" rose is even better--so evocative. And I'd buy a "Cranford" rose in a heartbeat--esp if it were cranberry colored.

Austin's nursery is in not Wessex - He (Austin) is a publicist, tapping into that English literary ideal with not a shred of synergy between the roses and their names. But hey ho, the modern marketeer!
Personally, I find Hardy to be an angry and often deeply political writer...and much of his time - much loved as a teenager but I wouldn't, couldn't bear to refresh my readings, particularly not of the likes of Mayor of Casterbridge.
I doubt I will be watching the latest adaptation of Far from the Madding Crowed either...although I did enjoy the dark Schlesinger film from 1967.
However, Hardy is far more bearable (to me) than the inane social witterings of Jane Austen (hang me, beat me, I am a philistine and I don't care)

I started out rather belatedly collecting some of Austin's literary roses: William Shakespeare, Scepter'd Isle (from his play),The Pilgrim (from Chaucer), and The Lady of Shalott. About that time, I began running out of space for more roses, unfortunately.

My real complaint, however, is that Austin has not seen fit to recognize any of the brilliant British women writers like either Bronte (well, I guess there is a Heathcliff--named after Emily's character? I don't know.) or Jane Austen or George Eliot or Christina Rossetti or Elizabeth Barrett Browning--or one of their famous characters like Maggie Tulliver or Elizabeth Bennett or Aurora Leigh.

Come on, David Austin. Let's get with it. Equal naming rights for women!

Kate

Yes, Kate, I totally agree. And while they are at it, why not name an Austin rose for a British mystery writer? I am rooting for a Ruth Rendell rose, or in a pinch, perhaps, an Agatha Christie rose.
Off topic a bit, but I'd like to mention with pride that the current recipient of the Pulitzer prize for fiction is a long time Boise resident, Anthony Doerr. He received the prize for his book, "All the Light We Cannot See". Diane

Agatha Christie has already been taken. That name graces both a 1988 Kordes climber and a 1966 floribunda.

I hadn't realized that very few Austin roses were named for famous women (Constance Spry is the only one I can think of) or for women characters in ilterature or folklore (The Dark Lady).

The Austin roses with "girl's names" were named in honor of people like his wife (I do love "Pat Austin"), his relatives, people who worked in his nurseries, & people for whom the naming rights were purchased (Sharifa Asma, etc).

I haven't run across a rose name that so aggravated me that I wouldn't buy it, but I've scrolled on past irises with names like Harlem Hussy & Pretty Quadroon, which hit me with a double whammy, being sexist as well as racist.

& I haven't watched Sesame Street since I realized that the only female muppet was Miss Piggy.

I vote for a beautiful Iphigenia rose. White would be my preference with just a hint of pale pink. I like the version where Diana comes and saves Iphigenia at the last moment. Here's a link to Kiri singing from the opera Iphigenie en Tauride by Gluck where she is also saved by the goddess. No sad endings for me

not sure where my link went......the music is at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P3Y88SmsZs

Oh, I shall enjoy listening to that, Ms Moonbeam - thank you for that and for the wonderful (and slightly giggle-making - or maybe that's just me) pic.. I wonder if it's an engraving 'after' an older painting.

No splash of crimson blood then, in your Iphigenia rose?

Strange thing, isn't it, how ladies back in the 'olden days' always seemed to have so much trouble persuading their breasts to stay inside their clothing....

Comtesse :¬D

Actually, there are quite a group of Austin roses named for literary characters. I had forgotten just how many. In a quick survey, I came up with twelve characters from Shakespeare, Hardy, Tennyson, Sydney, Chaucer, and from folklore. There were also several well known women from history, one saint, and of course lots of queens, princesses, and ladies.
The female literary characters include Hermione, Perdita, Cordelia, Rosalind, Lady of Shalott, Maid Marion, Juliet, Tamora, Tess, The Dark Lady, The Shepherdess, and The Wife of Bath.
Lists...what a compulsion and time waster of mine. Diane

I have the same trouble, Comtesse - catching sight of my wayward bosoms swinging wildly from side to side (I was in a rush and saw them in a shop window), I actually entered a bra shop for the first time in my life (Titissima - for 'big girls' or some such). The grief, the torment, the wiring and strapping. 34FF(S)! Having always been a feminista of 70's stripe, mine have generally been free range but I have massive pecs to make up for it and have never experienced much discomfort - this was purely an aesthetic choice,(plus a kindness to humanity). 2 weeks of torment...and I am back in vests. Let my bazookas roam free, hooters honk in abandon and my grandmotherly bosoms take flight.

There are two other roses that behold seemingly innocuous names, one is the Alba, Princesse de Lamballe and the other the tea rose Mademoiselle de Sombreuil.
The
former was a Lady in waiting of Marie-Antoinette. The story of her
demise is so bloody that an R rated horror film might pale in
comparison. If you're of sensitive nature do yourself a favor and don't read the account of her death, you'll have nightmares.
Thankfully Mlle. de Sombeuil story is less tragic. Her nickname was l'héroine au verre du sang,
the heroine with the glass of blood. I won't go through the gory
details of the event. Suffice to say, she became symbol of filial
loyalty. She would face anything to save her father's life, even though
ultimately he was guillotined...

I love my Jude! I would rather it be named that, than something like Ketchup and Mustard!

I have a rose called Greenmantle and I have a book about rose names. Greenmantle is from Sir Walter Scott's novel Redgauntlet and the character is The Lady of the Green Mantle, which I think would be a better name. I then discovered that Penzance, the rose hybridizer named many roses for Scott characters. I have another Penzance rose, Lady Penzance, which obviously was named for his wife (and was originally mislabeled as Lord Penzance). I wouid love to get all of the Penzance roses, but they tend to be large, once blooming and BS magnets. I do love the two I have though. The foliage smells like apples.

Walter Scott, Lord Penzance and Roses