This is just my opinion and one regular poster has already asked today if I am full of manure. Thus, you can judge whether or not my post is worthy based on others' questioning me.

I have grown both. They are each as difficult as the other. They have similar genetics. Papa grows taller and has ugly, ugly legs. Abe is tall enough, lets are not pretty but somewhat prettier than Papa's but Papa is the prettiest bloom and smells the best, but they are both high-maintenance roses in my zone, in my "manure" opinion.

Thanks Patricia. Your 'manure' is good !

I have ML and he smells so good, but he was such a black spot magnet here in Dallas that the bush never had any leaves on it. He also gets huge. I have Papa Meilland on order - should arrive this week. I also love reds and I won't buy then unless they are very fragrant. I have velvet fragrance and it smells awesome! I can't keep my nose out of it! I am also getting chrysler imperial and deep secret this week. Both are deep reds that are supposed to smell great!

Hey Patricia:

That is good to know. I'm going to show my husband your post. He is really smitten with Mr. Lincoln and as I think I told you in another post we are trying it from a body bag. If it fails I fear I will have to buy it from Roses Unlimited or a respectable vendor next year. And then give it five years to show its stuff because my husband has no stomach for shovel pruning:)

After all those events have come and gone I think I will get him Lavaglut.

Appreciate your feedback.

Kate

If you like Papa, Mr. L and CI, you need to buy Charles Mallerin, the father of all these beautiful reds.

My British rose book has some rude things to say about Papa Meilland, although it admits the flower is almost perfection. I have two cheap and cheaper Mr. Lincolns. In Maryland (humid) I didn't find it to be particularly bad re blackspot. True, it grows straight up, but oh, when it flowers the smell is divine - worth any issues I've had - and the flowers can be really big.

Oklahoma is my favorite red, and Chrysler Imperial is a close second. Both smell divine. Oklahoma is a deep velvety red and CI is kind of a, well, 'screaming red' is how I put it. Love them both.

Mister Lincoln is a must-have but repeats slowly for us. One fragrant red is not enough, so plant Oklahoma and Chrysler Imperial too! At least in Texas, I found both Chrysler Imperial & Oklahoma quite easy to grow. Another good one for the heat is the dark-red fragrant Austin, Tradescant. Ours grows sideways so blooms are always very low..until they hit the vase on my desk!

I have Papa, Mr. Lincoln and Chrysler Imperial. My favorite by far is Papa Meilland. It has more blooms per bush, quicker repeat and is more bushy, rather than tall and lanky like Mr. Lincoln. I love, love, love Papa's scent...just heavenly.
I spray without regularity and they all do fine.

Then I guess PM is it. The scent... oh, the scent! (One of those 'love is blind' situations as you can see)

This is my favorite rose fragrance, so I agree about getting CI, and trying to find space for another (although you just said only one will do). I have been in gardens where all of these were growing, and the smell is very similar. I think the repeat on CI is better, and its not as big. One of my other favorites is Climbing Crimson Glory. I have the climber in a pot, and it is 10+ years old. Here it is in late April- grown no spray:
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'Firefighter'. The fragrance is heavenly and the productivity is outstanding.

Mr. Lincoln grows taller than Papa Meilland and the repeat isn't very fast or good. Papa Meilland is also a slow starter but gets bushier, has more blooms and as cut flower it lasts more than a week. P.M. does not blue out and gets even darker and more velvety as cut flower. Papa M. starts spotty when new but somehow grows out of it when matures. As far as fragrance goes I think (smell) Papa M. is the best and I do grow a lot of dark reds.

I do not have Firefighter of those that are mentioned above.

I forgot to add to my previous post. The best Papa M. could be obtained form Palatine roses but I think it is sold out by now. Other than that I do not know which vendor to recommend - it is not a very easy rose to find. Vintage, as I read, has a very good clone (virus indexed), but first, I don't know if they list it available this year; second, I am not sure that you want to start with a band if there is the only red you have place for.

I just ordered my papa m from Heirloom. It shipped today so they should still have some in stock.

I bought mine at Wal Mart.

So many people have recommended Chrysler Imperial to me that I finally bought one to try in a pot.

Chrysler Imperial is a Gamble Fragrance Award winner--as are PM and Mister Lincoln.

Actually, I think you (and I) should get all three. If you don't have enough space, CI grows a relatively compact
3' X 2 1/2', and has been recommended to me for a pot.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chrysler Imperial

I had Mr Lincoln for 5 years it was tall leggy and the blooms were not as nice to my mind as Chrysler Imperial or Oklahoma Charles Malerin is also a beauty

Ceterum, what is your zone? Palatine does not have PM, but Vintage does have a virus indexed one. I have grown bands before, straight in the ground, so that should not be a problem. I do need a tall rose, since it will be growing 'behind' another rose, so that it can be seen, so I think PM fits that bill. Others: I wish I had the space to also put in some of the other roses that share the same heritage or are parents, e.g., Mirandy, which has the among the headiest perfume I have smelt (another was Tiffany).

Would Ingrid Bergman fit the bill? Comments? I was eyeing her.

IB is fabulous but not much fragrance to my nose.

If I can add my two cents, I think that the best red hybrid tea I have ever seen is 'Mirandy'. My grandmother still has a 40-year-old-plus bush growing alongside of her house that as far as I can recall has never had a major case of blackspot or mildew and never fails to produce large, sumptuous, headily fragrant blooms all summer long. It would be my choice if choosing a dark red, strongly fragrant hybrid tea. And Vintage has a virus-indexed clone.

As for shrub form, 'Mirandy' is a typical hybrid tea with ravishingly beautiful blooms on top of awkward, lanky stems. But it is less awkward and lanky than 'Mister Lincoln' and it has a much better rebloom, IMHO. I have never seen a mature specimen of 'Papa Meilland'.

Yeshwant, I garden on zone 8 in humid and hot coastal NC.

Yeshwant91,
you might want to pay closest attention to testimonials from other rose growers near you/in your region. But here's my 2 cents' worth, anyway.

If you are seeking a tall fragrant red, as you say, Mr. Lincoln fits the bill--much taller than Papa Meilland by most accounts. I have not grown PM yet, mine (virus indexed) is due to arrive from Roses Unlimited next week, as is Chrysler Imperial. I HAVE grown Mr. Lincoln, both in cool western Washington State, and in hot and humid Mobile Alabama. Both places this rose grew very tall. In Mobile it was easily 8 feet tall, too tall for my preference. In Washington it had a rich deep red color, did not "blue" nor "blow" so quickly as in Mobile, and the blooms were terrific. It also was respectably productive. It would be my pick for fragrant red in a cool summer climate (along with the much smaller Deep Secret!), but I found Mr. L's quality a little disappointing in the Gulf South. Others on the Gulf Coast I know disagree with me, though.

I'm excited about Papa Meilland, largely because of ceterum's long-standing rave reviews of him. But many reviews say his form and fragrance are unsurpassed. (yea!)

Chrysler Imperial is a much lighter red. I had a cheap (almost certainly) virused plant of it from Walmart a couple years back. Hey, for $4 I thought I'd try it as a disposable. The plant was runty but the blooms, when they came, were wonderful. I'm quite excited to get a healthy specimen (knock on wood) from Roses Unlimited. Healthy CIs are known to be one of the more prolific bloomers, as well as having the same long cutting stems as Papa M. and Mr. Lincoln, and similar Damask fragrance too.

If you haven't already done so, check out the photos and descriptions and comments on both roses at helpmefind.com/roses.

Raptorfan, I have grown Ingrid Bergman, but only for a year and a half. As rich a blood red color as they come, but the bloom form is variable, and I detect not even a slight fragrance. Perhaps bloom form is better with a mature bush? IB gets quite variable reviews on fragrance. Veteran's Honor is definitely more fragrant, and consistently excellent form, though the color is not quite so rich. Both are impressively prolific bloomers.

Crysler has been one of my all time favourites. I love the form and colour of the bloom. It is burgundy red for me, which has suited my decor in the house and goes lovely with Amber Queen and any light pink to give the old country roses affect. The fragrance to me is out of othis world.

Mr Lincoln is still new to me, so cannot comment too much yet, though it almost looked and smelled like Crysler when I first saw it, I thought that had to have been a mistaken identification!! but now guess not!

But from what everybody says here, I have to try, and I will, Poppa Meilland. Not this year though - as one can only order so many - that rule does not apply to our Beth of course! heehe!
Pauline - Vancouver Island

Marie, Mike, I have to cut Papa Meilland back to get him as "low" as Mr. Lincoln. Papa is on multiflora that I got from Ashdown a few years ago. I wonder if it just likes the location. In fact, I have Mr. Lincoln on Dr. Huey (which has now gone ownroot) and on fortuniana and in both cases, the Multiflora Papa is taller. I have an own-root Papa M from tiny baby band 2 years old but is still baby.

Patricia, I'm curious, how tall is your Mr. Lincoln? It sounds to me almost like your bushes IDs are reversed. Mr. Lincoln typically grows straight up and down, not particularly spreading. It's blooms don't last particularly long but are quite respectible in cooler weather.

Thanks everyone. I ordered the virus indexed Papa Meilland band from Vintage Gardens. Mister Lincoln, Mirandy, Chrysler Imperial were very close runners up.
From reading and re-reading all the posts on this site (incl. Ceterum), I get the impression that PM is more fragrant and disease resistant than ML, more fragrant, taller & darker red than CI, darker and nods less than Mirandy (which I think is more disease reistant). I hope I am right. Unfortunately I just have one spot in my tiny urban backyard.

Mike, my Mr. Lincoln is many, many years old from J&P and is about 3-4 feet tall. My first Papa was from Ashdown and is about 8-feet tall. The second one was from K&M and is about 6-7 feet tall. The third is from Vintage own-root and is about 5 feet tall but is not old enough to be fully grown. Chrylser Imperial is shorter - perhaps 2-1/2 to 3 feet.

ML was always 8+ feet tall for me. Very leggy. Kind of a simbol of tall leggy rose in my opinion. I always use ML to describe this kind of bush shape, if somebody askes me about tall leggy rose, I say it looks like ML bush :).

Olga

Ingrid Bergman looks great to me.. I have a picture of her..

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http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w164/jdsong/?action=view¤t=ingredbergman.jpg

I am so sorry about the loss of your Kardinal Song, Sally. Your garden sounds beautiful.