Karyn,

What you have learned the hard way is the difference between cane hardy,crown hardy & not hardy.

The ones that die and never come back are just not hardy enough even with your protection methods.

The ones that die to the ground but do eventually re-grow are crown hardy. That is the canes die but the crown survives primarily through your deep burial and and mulch protection and can re-grow.

The truly cane hardy choices are limited and not nearly as exciting as we would like but they are reliable and will not die all the way back to the ground. You may lose some cane length in a bad year but not all of it. These are typically the explorer climbers. Somewhat of an oxymoron in my books because most of them top out at 5 or 6 feet at best so to call them climbers is being very kind. Well except for William Baffin, he does actually get tall.

Or have a look at: John Davis, John Cabot, Henry Kelsey & Quadra. John Davis and Quadra are worthy of the space you will give them for sure.

If you want to keep cane length on a crown hardy plant you have to protect it, planting deep and mulching protects the crown but does nothing to protect the canes. If you want these types you would have to be prepared to not only do crown protection but to also to either wrap the canes or bend and bury.

You can find balance with a mix of both in our zones, good reliable cane hardy explorers with a few marginally hardy climbers in protected spots that you are willing to fuss over. We will never have those 10-12 feet high climbing roses just dripping blooms over an arbour or pergola... very depressing but true. There are ways to "cheat" nature if you accept the extra work.

I am playing with marginal climbers that are not cane hardy at all but are crown hardy and vigourous enough to put out better than 6' in a season, ultimately they get taller than the explorer's that didn't die back.

Give us some idea of what you want colour wise etc and we can certainly recommend some.

cathy

Only the Canadian Explorer climbers are truly cane hardy for me here in MN zone 4a. John Cabot and John Davis are adaptable to train on a trellis and completely hardy for me.

Quadra is another nice climber from Canada, but not quite as hardy. It has some die back in cold winters, but makes a nice pillar. It will recover to a height of 6 to eight feet here.

Some other climbers can be grown with winter protection and will recover to short pillars 3 to 5 feet in good years, but JD and JC are my best for an arbor.

Regards,

Charles

What I was looking to do was cover up the UGLY 6x6 post about 5' that the electric meter hangs on. Wires are all underground so there is just a post in the lawn. Couldn't talk the electric guy into putting it any place else. Guess he wasn't into landscape and trying to hide the thing. I thought I would paint it white and add a big bird house on the top and cover it with a climbing rose. I don't care as to the color since there isn't anything else there yet, i'm going to create around it, make it sort of an island that connects to my border across the stonewall. Sort of looking L shaped.

What do you think will be fuller for more coverage? Do you thing I should plant one on the left & right side of the post? I would like it completely hidden if possible. I'm thinking big bushy and full, not to look like a post with a few canes on it.

Cathy,

Thanks for the lesson, I sure needed that. I had that idea but just couldn't connect all the clues. I't hard for me sometimes to read the description on the roses and to truly understand what exactly it means. Not to mention the same rose depending upon where you buy it is rated for different zones or they don't tell you at all.

We will never have those 10-12 feet high climbing roses just dripping blooms over an arbour or pergola... very depressing but true. I'm bummed....

Charles,
Thanks for the information. I have been to MN in the winter and is it ever windy and cold. But oh so beautiful!

Thanks again,

-Karyn

Ramblin' Red has been a good hardy climber that makes it thru the winter with only tip of the cane die back in my Z4a garden.

Be sure to check with the electric company to be sure you're allowed to plant something there. I have a big transformer box in my yard and I'm not allowed to plant anything within three feet of the box on three sides or seven feet from the front. I had to plan my new garden around it.

I have John Cabot which is a dark pink rose, and it mostly blooms once in the spring for me so far with some rebloom later. But it is completely hardy to the tips of the canes and it's huge. At two years old it is about 8 feet tall and has completely overwhelmed the trellis it is on. I'm going to have to prune it a bit in the spring to keep it in bounds.

Good advice about checking with the electric company first, although since it is only the meter and not the transformer I would think you would have no problem. Just make sure the guy can actually read the meter when needed without getting scratched all up.

You will probably have the "few canes up the post look" for at least a few years. Perhaps a taller shrub is more of an idea as they tend to get bushy faster.

A Rugosa will do the trick and can easily attain the 5' you desire. Something shorter on the side that the meter faces should still make it easy to read. For non Rugosa'a but still quite hardy there are many choices....

Other Explorer's or Mordens along the lines of
Cuthbert Grant, (good deep red and can get 4-5')
Morden Blush, (lovely soft pink old fashioned bloom)
Alexander McKenzie (nice red although major bloom is in spring)
Prairie Joy (a good performer, clear pink)

all of these will get bushier than a climber faster.

A lot of the Austins would be crown hardy for you and will regrow to a decent size:

Brother Caedfael - pink
Crocus Rose - soft yellow/white
The Mayflower - pink
Mary Rose - pink
Winchester Cathedral - white

A clematis or two added in would be lovely and they don't present the thorns issue.

Cathy

To these suggestions I'd add a few other very winter-hardy ones: 'White Mountains' (bred in New Hampshire); 'Polestar'; 'Lilian Gibson';'Victorian Memory'.

wirosarian,
I looked this up on HMF, that is a pretty one. The zones are listed as 6b through 9b have I got the wrong rose? http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=39236(Ramblin'Red)Do you have this one?

athenainwi,
A great idea, I will check with the electric co. The John Cabbott sounds nice and several have suggested it. I'll keep that in mind.

shootingstar2,
Do you think a Rugosa or an Austin would grow that tall here? I have 2 MRS. DOREEN PIKE that are supposed to be Austins, they grow back to just 3' if i'm lucky.http://www.heirloomroses.com/cgi/browse.cgi?page=item&cat=19&item=77 (Mrs. Doreen Pike)

neroseman,
How fun a rose from NH and named for the White Mountains. I'll have to look that one up too.

-Karyn

Karyn, That's the right rose on HMF but their "zone" info is off. Yes I have this rose, growing on the west end of my house so it gets the full blast of any winter winds out of the W & NW--only die back in 3 years has been about 6 inches of the tips. Below is a link to this rose on Dave's Garden & there is one report from a person in Z3.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ramblin' Red

Climbing roses that have proven to be cane hardy in my Zone 5a yard, with the exception of RR, which suffered more than half of winterkill due to our late April frosts last year. I ended up digging RR up and replanted it in a sheltered spot.

Click to enlarge:

John Davis:
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John Cabot (far right)-- Has grown over 10 feet:
{{gwi:236201}}

William Baffin - Also, has grown over 10 feet:
{{gwi:236203}}

Ramblin' Red (Here's a pic of RR - a beautiful climber!)
{{gwi:236205}}

Viking Queen:
{{gwi:236207}}

Karyn,

Quite a few of the Rugosa's will get the 5' you are seeking without much problem. Many of them are pretty thorny however so I suppose it is a trade-off. They are very easy care, well scented & super hardy, just don't spray them they don't like it at all.

A few larger one's that are great are:

Roserie de L'Hay
Hansa
Therese Bugnet
Martin Frobisher
Linda Campbell (good red and tall but no scent)

As for the Austin's of course they all vary as to hardiness and vigour on regrowth, which of course is affected by the micro climate that they are placed in which affects the amount of winter-kill. The one's in the previous post are hardier than many of them. Mrs Doreen Pike is a shorter austin to begin with, I think she is only rated to 3 feet tall on HMF. On the other hand Mary Rose or Winchester Cathedral are rated at 4-5'. The Rugosa's will get taller and will be hardier than the Austins.

cathy

wirosarian,
OK thanks, I thought it was... Good to know the wind doesn't bother it much. The post has no protection around it at all and the wind really blows from the North down out of the field. I love the color.

bellarosa,
Oh these are all beautiful, I like the different shades of pink and LOVE that they are spaced out and fill in the side of the house! A beautiful garden, would you mind if I held onto these pics as inspiration that some day my new very bare yard would grow up to resemble this one?

Cathy,
I will check them all out, thanks. The Linda Campbell is very pretty, to bad it isn't named something other than Linda, beleive it or not I went to school with someone with that name and spent 12 yrs trying to avoid her, she was so mean and nasty to everyone. I wouldn't want this one to be that way to our meter reader. :)

Thanks so much everyone! I will spend some time looking at all the suggestions and by the time this snow ever melts I will be ready--providing I can find any of these localy this year if not I will order for next year.

-Karyn

William Baffin is definitely hardy but unfortunately a p.i.t.a., at least in my garden. I got rid of both WBs because they were TOO vigorous. Might be less so in your zone, but I would suspect even in zone 4 he would overtake your space within a few years.

One climber I have had great luck with is Chianti, an older, once-blooming David Austin that is actually somewhat fragrant (the Canadian Explorers aren't). It is a very pretty red that looks like a real rose and puts on a fantastic show in early June. It is hardy to the tips for me unlike any other DA I have grown and is available from DA and probably Pickering and other sources.

Ashdown has Chianti too. I ordered one about a week ago. I hope it does as well up here as it does in Maine.

I live in zone 5 and am thinking of getting a climbing rose to plant next to the porch. If I untied it from the trellis and laid it flat on the ground and did a really good job of piling mulch and then covering the climber with burlap would it be okay on the ground for the winter? Then in the Spring when it was warm enough, I could uncover it and tie it back up on the trellis? Would this work?? Thank you. summer_fashion

summer fashion, I am finding that many "climbers" have canes that are too stiff for the kind of protection your are thinking of. The canes wouls snap off before they ever got flat enough to cover.

More reliable, but considerably more work, is the "Minnesota Tip." That's where the plant itself is partially dug up and "tipped over until the canes lie flat. This is obviously far from ideal, since it is still very traumatic for the plant, which has to re-establish it's root system every Spring.

Take it from a newbie who started in roses the hard way; with climbers. It is far, far better to plant a tough rose then to spend the effort to winter protect it. The more work it requires the less likely you will be to get the work done, and your roses and your time and money will have been wasted.

Karyn..I know this is the rose board..but...have you considered a clematis? It would definately obscure a pole, and bloom well, and then you could plant a few shorter roses in front of it. Just a thought...Donna

Ditto what everyone else said, especially 'Ramblin Red'. Also it's mch better to get an own-root rose rather than grafted. Own-roots get thru winter much better once they are established.

Another trick is to select your favorite climbers without regard to hardiness, plant them in very large containers, prop them up against a post or trellis, and tie them in. Then in November get your handtruck out and wheel them into a shed, unheated garage, etc. for the winter. This is what I do with several climbers that otherwise would not make it thru my zone 5 winter. You can plant a rose in the ground to hide the pot. -Paul

I see no mention of Kordes climbers which is not surprising given that few are available from our nurseries. I get mine mainly from Pickering or Hortico.

Then there is the Rambler, Baltimore Belle, bred from a cross with Rosa Setigera. It is tip hardy in 5a so should be more that climber height in 4. Here it is immense shooting up 10' canes left and right. Once blooming but for a long time. Very fragrant and profuse.

As to Kordes climbers Ilse Krohn Superior, Illusion, Leverkusen, Dortmund, Rosarium Uetersen and Sympathie are hardy. Most are Kordesii's, a spontaneoous cross of Max Graf, whatever that means. Some of the Explorers are crosses with Kordesii's. All of these for me are 6 footers except Ilse that is a tall lanky thing that grows over my arbor.

Ah, but Jim - there is a world of difference between your zone 5 and my zone 4. None of the large flowered Kordes climbers you mention would be anything but short shrubs here unfortunately.

Jim, 'Baltimore Belle' is only 25% setigera. It isn't cane-hardy in zone 4. The plant survives from the roots and resprouts, but it doesn't flower on the new wood.

And none of the Kordes recommendations can become climbers in zone 4 unless that are taken off the trellis, laid along the ground and covered. They are almost hardy, but those handful of degrees in winter minimum between zone 5 and zone 4 make a big difference. I have grown 'Dortmund,' 'Parkdirektor Riggers' and 'Ilse.' All do great with along-the-ground protection. Otherwise, the regrow as nice little arching, perennial roses. Only 'Ilse' remains now, and I love her this way.

I'd offer two others to add to the zone 4 hardy list: 'Applejack' and 'Prairie Dawn.' These *could* be grown as climbers with attentive pruning. Unlike the most of the Explorers, they are fragrant and they bloom all summer. Tip hardy for me in zone 4.

Back when we regularly saw winter lows of -18°F, the Kordes climbers were toast here. I'm still extremely skeptical about them as climbers because of that.

MG's reply is quite remarkable! First of all I live North of her although close zonewise. And I have managed to grow many Kordes "climbers" for at least 6 years. While for her they are toast. Second to my knowledge she doesn't have any Kordes roses. This is based on her frequent attacks on the German firm of Kordes and their roses. And also having visited her garden although that was a few years ago.

Next there is the post by dr A. Being curious about the wherabouts of Voynovia I learned from Google that it is a "fictional" former territory of the Soviet Union. So I assume his whereablout might be fictional too? And where did he get his info on Baltimore Belle. Having been bred in 1840 something who has any accurate information about that?
But the proof is in the pudding so I suppose we should accept his input on BB's hardiness? More fiction?

As to hardiness and survivability. So much depends on other things as Riku will testify. I have planted a number of roses supposedly hardy that are now gone. Carefree Beauty, Darlow's Enigma, John Cabot, Henry Kelsey, Alexander McKenzie, Madame Hardy, Viking Queen and several others.

So as to these K climbers we'll have to accept the reports from those we actually live there. My thoughts were only to suggest some roses that might be hardy in 4 based on my experience in 5a.

I live in zone 4. I used to post as John_W, but chose this new moniker for fun. You and I have exchanged e-mails and dialogue on this forum, but never again.

'Baltimore Belle' is a R. setigera seedling X 'something else.'

My experience with all the roses I mentioned is firsthand.

I'm in zone 5 Ontario. I've grown Ilse Krohn sup. for many years & it hasn't been cane hardy even in the past few warm winters. On the other hand, it blooms off new wood very nicely. I have friends who grow other Kordessii's in this area & their experience is the similar, with Dortmund being the exception. They make terrific shrubs when planted in groups of two. Explorers need to have their old wood pruned out regularly. Mme Hardy is cane hardy here. Chianti and ramblers like Veilchenblau are not. You get blooms after two warm winters.

Stop fighting boys! Roses are supposed to be fun.

Hi, I live in zone 4 and the first 2 roses I planted were harrison yellow (which grows wild around here) and polstjarnan which I bought from pickering nursery when they offered it as a own root plant. They are both once blooming but extremely hardy and put on a show that is worthwhile considering how short the summers are around here anyway. The polstjarnan is a climbing rose that gets really big fast. The harrison yellow is a shrub that gets almost as big almost as fast. I have planted various roses since then, all have been less hardy but at least I know I can count on my first two to put on a display worth waiting for.

With regard to the electric meter....

We learned the hard way. We had a custom designed wrought iron gate & fence to be placed near our property line next to our neighbors house. The neighbors elec meter is in that area. Turned out the electric company requires a minimum 3 foot clearance in front and on both sides of the meter. Otherwise, they are well within their right to have you remove anything that is planted or placed there.

I would imagine that any electrical worker is not going to be happy working around thorny rose bushes, so if I were you, I'd plant a clematis or some other vine, or plant a shrub in front of it.

John_W,

Good to have you back. I thought I had enjoyed that brand of humor before. I do like your new "moniker."

Lydia; Butt out! Boys play rough. It was just getting interesting. Just don't tell my wife though. She has the sharpest toungue west of the Muddassippi.

I did recommend Quadra for my boss, and I still have a job.

Toodles!

F.L.

Blessed be the peacemakers, Lydia.

Please forgive this rash raptor.

F.L.