If you remember your highschool biology, this is where punnett squares come in. You've got dominant traits (uppercase letters) and recessive traits (lowercase letters). Lets pretend Red pepper pod color is dominent, and yellow pods are recessive. So you have two purebred peppers next to each other, a red one (RR) and a yellow one (yy), and they accidentally cross. .....y.....y R..Ry..Ry R..Ry..Ry All of the seeds from that crossbreeding will be red, because the dominant red gene (R) is in all of the crosses, and it overrides the yellow. Now, that is your F1 generation. Say you save the seeds from that F1, and plant them. Say there is no cross pollination, only self pollination (which is most likely), you get this: .....R.....y R..RR..Ry y..Ry..yy So you end up with a 25% chance that the F2 is going to be pure Red, a 50% chance that the offspring is going to be a hybrid that is red, and a 25% chance that it will be yellow. If you were to take one of those Ry hybrid reds and backbreed it with a pure RR red, you'd get this: .....R.....y R..RR..Ry R..RR..Ry So your F3 would be 100% red, with a 50/50 chance of carrying the recessive yellow gene. Now, peppers have a lot more going on than just a single thing like this, but it gives you the idea. Heirloom peppers are generally stable breeds, aka ones that have been bred out for at least 8-16 generations to ensure there are no weird recessive genes lurking around. Hybrids may look normal for several generations and then spit something weird back out again. And then you get into the stuff with two dominant genes that end up creating actual hybrid appearances (like if in the above example Red and Yellow were both dominant, the RY offspring might come out Orange, for example, while still having offspring that come out Red or Yellow). Scrupulous seed dealers will only sell seeds that have passed at least the 8th stable generation mark (as in, 8 generations of seed grown out with no surprises), sellers like Pepper Joe on the other hand will happily sell unstable hybrids if they can get the sale. Its one of the reasons you need to look up the reputation for a seller, and never trust seed off of ebay. Because even if the ebay seller picks the seeds straight out of the pod and puts it into an envelope for you, they still might have been an open pollination cross that will mess it up for you. But please, don't let that scare you away from anything thats OP, as its very unlikely that an OP pepper actually hybridizes, majority of the time a pepper self pollinates. Which, as long as its a stable line, will get you more of what you want. Even then, I occasionally like to intentionally plant F1s from an unstable line (like the snacking sweet peppers you get from the grocery store) just to see what I get. Peppers sold for food don't need to be stable, and it can be interesting to see what grows (especially when it gives you a glimpse into what they're hybridizing to make the peppers they sell you). Sometimes the mystery of what grows is the most fun part!

1) Are there any Sungold or Sunsugar F8s or F9s out there? Sungold Select and Sungold Select II. 2) When do OP seed grown plants become *heirloom*...is there a number of years, or do they ever? Some say whenever an open pollinated (OP) tomato is passed from one generation to another within the same family, it becomes a "family heirloom" although you'll find that most "family heirlooms" came recently from overseas with minimal geneological data, or have a claim appended to them of "grown in her family for over 80 years," "reportedly grown by (insert a native American tribe)," or "grown in the area for as long as anyone alive can remember." Others say it takes 50 years for an OP to become an "heirloom" except: Some people feel a commercial OP tomato bred by professional or university breeders must have been stabilized and in common circulation before 1941 because the folks who determined the "commercial heirloom" category feel that was about the time that commercial hybrid tomatoes became available to home gardeners (even though the really famous and persistent two home garden hybrids weren't on the market until 1946 and 1948) :::smile::: OR If the tomato were an intentional cross with both parents known, and at least one being some sort of "heirloom" to begin with (sometimes this qualification is overlooked), and the gardener takes the time to stabilize the intentional cross, then some folks consider the stabilized cross to be a "created heirloom" (even though this procedure is exactly the same procedure as for hundreds of commercially produced OP tomato varieties which don't qualify as "commercial heirlooms" because they missed the 1941 cut-off date) :::shrug::: OR If the tomato was an accidental cross with one parent unknown and the other parent hopefully qualifying as one or another kind of "heirloom," and the gardener spent the time to stabilize the accidental cross, some folks consider the stabilized cross to be a "mystery heirloom" unless some sluethy tomato enthusiast can prove, or at least insinuate successfully, that the person claiming "bee pollination" in fact manufactured the cross or completely fabricated the story :::giggle::: (Hey, a guy has to have fun somehow in the afternoon!) 3)If you are growing heirloom or OP tomatoes, what are the chances of two different types being cross-pollinated? If the chances are high, how far apart should different varieties be grown to help insure no cross-pollination? Chances are very low unless you have native pollinators very active in your area. For example, in my area, I have only infrequently seen bumble bees visit tomato blossoms. As to how far apart one must separate tomato plants to ensure no cross pollination ... how far can an insect pollinator fly with pollen attached to its body parts and then land on another blossom? And why do some folks say 6 feet for tomatoes but 100 or 200 feet for peppers? This remains a mystery to me. 4) And lastly, how the heck do the hybridizers do it? For instance those who are producing the Sungold tomato seeds. I could certainly understand high prices on F1 hybrids if they actually manually hand pollinate flowers. And even then...how do you do that? Those little flowers are so tiny, and how do you keep them from fertilizing themselves. Are there any websites that show photos of this process? Click Here for hybrid seed production in tomatoes pdf. Click Here for the same thing as a slide show. Click Here for an easy to follow along demonstration and a Web site that has a wealth of tomato breeding info and links. Click Here for the North Carolina State University Cultivar Lists where some parents of older hybrids are named (like Avalanche = Mozark x Glamour, or MoCross Surprise (Missouri Surprise) = Mozark x Sioux) but where they won't name the parents of many proprietary hybrids or hybrids that are still under production. Bill

First, I tried to answer the question about the definition of OP using the same genetic terms that pennyrile used. So that's an attempt to defione an OP based on genetic issues alone. What Trudi posted is a definition based more on a functional basis. Here's what Trudi quoted from her source: (In addition to their long history of use, the heirloom vegetables that are routinely grown from seed are open-pollinated, meaning that they set seed "naturally," often aided by wind, rain, or pollinating insects, and can thus be renewed by sowing the seeds harvested from each generation of plants. Known also as standard or non-hybrid, open-pollinated varieties tend to be stable and true-breeding. They differ from F1 hybrids, which in usual practice result from deliberate crossing of two distinct, highly inbred parent lines. (The term "F1" to describe the hybrid offspring indicates the "first filial" generation, with respect to the parent lines.)) Trudi, I know that definition well and used to use it when asked, but a couple of things about it started bothering me. (are open-pollinated, meaning that they set seed "naturally," often aided by wind, rain, or pollinating insects, and can thus be renewed by sowing the seeds harvested from each generation of plants. Known also as standard or non-hybrid, open-pollinated varieties tend to be stable and true-breeding.) Possible Problem #1; if cross pollinated by pollinating insects a variety is no longer genetically stable, as in true brreding. Possible Problem #2; nothing was said about spontaneous mutations which can also alter varieties. Possible Problem #3. What about all the varieties that were bred by individuals and done so deliberately? Would then one still consider all of TOm Wagner's varieties such as Green Zebra, Green Grape, Elberta Girl and on and on, as OP's b'c they didn't come about via natural means? Same comment for all of the ones bred by joe Bratka such as Snow White, Super Snow White, Ghost, Rabbit, Marizol Purple, aka Marizol Bratka, and all the Sara thises and that's that he bred. Since they were bred are they to be considered OP? s And what about all the ones bred by Joe's father, such as Box Car Willie, Mule Team, Red Barn, Great Divide and Pasture. Are they OP's using the "natural" definition? And there are more examples. ( They differ from F1 hybrids, which in usual practice result from deliberate crossing of two distinct, highly inbred parent lines. (The term "F1" to describe the hybrid offspring indicates the "first filial" generation, with respect to the parent lines.)) The purpose here is to produce F1 seed for sale whereas the deliberate crosses made by Tom Wagner, Joe Bratka, his father, Tad Smith and others is not to produce F1 seed, rather, to dehybridize the F1's that they create to develop OP's from selections at the F2, F3, level, for instance. I guess what I'm saying is that I've know that functional definition of OP for a long time and that goes back to the late 80's. But in more recent years we do have lots of folks making their own crosses, so it seems maybe a bit problematic now to say that an OP can only arise by natural means, forgetting the comment about X pollination by insects. Just something to think about. Carolyn

I noticed the horrible reviews on those too! Sidekicks looks like a great affordable alternative to a $10,000 built in, but the reviews scared me away.