Thanks Sammy and Nay. I have met Mark and he is a wonderful gentleman.

Thanks Sammy. Please send Nay my regards and tell her we miss her.

Harry

Thanks Sammy, I haven't met Mark but have talked to him a number of times and think he is a wonderful gentleman as well. Tell Nay I said Hi and I miss her.

Carol

I don't know Mark, but I often order from his nursery. It's a wonderful product at a great price, and I appreciate them very much. It's a good reminder to me to be silent on things I don't know about and to avoid gossip in all forms. Thanks, Sammy.

Thank you for your responses.

I sincerely believe that Mark has high ethical standards, and was thrilled to know that he was in contact with the most credible people.

I have the same feelings about Antique Rose Emporium and Ashdown. Those are the only other two nurseries I have done business with. And I think I could say the same thing about a number of others, too. I hate to see someone accused of something they didn't do. It just is not fair.

Sammy

Thank you for posting this, Sammy. I only hope Nay will be able to join us. She is very well informed, has hands-on experience and is a load of fun and speaking of touring greenhouses, she is totally an over-the-top observer who loves to pick up every pot and guess without a bloom or with it. She does know roses and has a keen love for all things roses and blooming.

Sombrueil: ARS recognizes Sombrueil as a large flowered climber. The same rose is also marketed as Colonial White. A recent post from Jeri details the history of the confusion between the climbing Sombrueil, once called a tea (NOT) now a LCL and a tea rose whose name contains "Sombrueil".
Hannah Gordon and Nicole: ARS has published an article detailing the confusion between these two roses. A search on this forum will yield more info. There's been confusion for many years.'
I have admired Martha Gonzales (the rose) for years and often visit one in our modern rose bed at the arboretum. Never detected any fragrance whatsoever. Ordered another for the house and-- surprise, arrived with an open bloom which is fragrant! I think such variation between roses from different sources, esp. very old roses, can occur and add to the difficulty of conclusively identifying a rose.

Barbara, if you ever find a picture of a Martha Gonzalez, would you post it? I have four by our mailbox, and I don't know if the leaves and flowers are too small or if it just grows that way. It is a nightmare to prune, and like with other such roses - even if you take an electric something to it, there are still so many blooms throughtout and intertwined in the rose.

Sammy

Sammy, I'm not Barbara but here are a couple of pics of mine from last spring. It did have a bit of PM but shucked it off when the temps got hot. I agree it is a pain to deadhead, so many spent blooms down in the plant. I usually take a hedge shear and clip the top and then get down into the plant with my pruners. Even after all this I still see some spent blooms.
The leaves are tiny and real dark even after they mature.

{{gwi:234282}}

{{gwi:234283}}

I think MG is the kind of rose that should grow without much attention. While it may get full of spent blooms, it repeats real well. Even if you're real obsessive/compulsive, it would take a while to deadhead it. So its not the best rose for a formal-neat look.

Thanks, Oldblush. Mine may be smaller than that. I have already put Mills Magic around them, and will try to fertilize them more later. Yours are beautiful. I appreciate your posting them.

I agree jbcarr, that it is difficult to try to have a formal neat look with this rose. I feel that way about all my roses.

Sammy

Chamblee's description of "Lover's Delite" is: "Found" Tea rose.
Whatever it may be, "Lover's Delite" is not a Tea rose. I say that with 100 percent certainty. I bought the rose from Chamblees and have grown it for four years (unless I tossed it last year). I also grow 45 different varieties of Tea roses, more or less at any one time. A number are found roses. "Lover's Delite" has nothing in common with the Tea class. The color is not tea color, the bloom form is not a Tea form,

{{gwi:234284}}

the canes are not Tea canes, the foliage is not Tea foliage, the prickles are not Tea prickles,

{{gwi:234285}}

the growth habit is not Tea growth habit, and the scent is not Tea scent. Therefore, "Lover's Delite" is not a Tea.

As for "information on the internet" sullying the reputations of growers... I did not originate the questions about the identity of "Lover's Delite." I did convey the above information to Chamblees by email years ago, well before it appeared "on the internet" other than on this forum. They never responded or acknowledged my email in any way. I am sure they are very busy and can't respond to every email they get. They do respect the study names given by the finder of a rose, and I applaud that. In the interest of accuracy, tho, I also believe it is unwise to call "Lover's Delite" a Tea rose when it so clearly is not. Once a rose has been identified, I also consider it imperative to mention the accepted name.

The information from David Austin's USA operations is incomplete. You can confirm for yourselves that Fisherman's Friend can be bought at no fewer than 10 nurseries that supply the USA. Fisherman's Friend was listed with six different Northern American suppliers as long ago as the 1990 Combined Rose List: Heirloom Roses in Oregon, Hortico, Limberlost Roses, Pickerings, Rose Acres, and Yesterday's Rose.

I do not suggest that Chamblees is trying to mislead anyone. I'm sure their hearts are pure. I am suggesting that anyone who buys this rose as a Tea rose should check the facts for themselves. That way they won't be surprised when they receive a violet purple pink, old-rose scented, muddled but old fashioned bloom on a plant with viciously thorny canes with both prickles and acicles and modern foliage that rusts.

Chamblees won't be the first person to be fooled by Austin roses. Our heritage roses groups of knowledgeable, honest rosarians collected a lovely, quartered, highly scented, thorny, repeat blooming rose with Portland-like foliage from two different Gold Country locations, including on one old grave. We have almost certainly identified that rose as Gertrude Jekyll.

Berndoodle, thank you for an informative post with pictures to show the descriptions.

I am curious, though, to know how you know that these nurseries had Fisherman's Friend in 1990. I checked on a couple of them, and Limberlost, Rose Acres, and Yesterday's Roses are no longer operating. Have you kept catalogs for 18 years? I don't doubt your accuracy, but you must have a huge library or a very acute memory.

You are correct that you were not the one to make comments about Chamblees recently on this forum, and I agree that Chamblees should have addressed your questions. I wish you would ask them again.

Chamblees makes rose growing affordable and fun for me. I don't really understand why Souvenir de la Malmaisson and Gruss an aachen are not in the same group. I don't understand why Monsieur Tillier is a tea and Cramoisi Superieur is a china. My knowledge base is very limited for the number of roses I have.

Since the David Austin people knew and had no problem with the Lover's Delite name, I don't have a problem with it either. I did not like the inference that he had stolen a rose. But the tea business is different. Thank you for your post.

Sammy

I know the listed nurseries had Fisherman's Friend in 1990 because I checked the 1990 edition of the Combined Rose List. And I completely, unequivocally deplore and disavow any suggestion that Chamblees stole Fisherman's Friend. Maybe some readers on these forums are careless, half-remembering, half understanding. Not knowing or not having enough time to check identities is not theft. Nurserymen aren't all cut out to be great rose identification experts.

But roses have names for a reason. We need names to keep them straight. Mucking them up with wrong names, misspelled name, new names, pretty names if we don't like the original, all of that can lead to the loss of the identity of the rose. Just because many gardeners couldn't care less doesn't make it any less likely to be the case.

In fairness to any nursery that sells a rose under the wrong name, it's only decent and forthright to tell them when we suspect they have a misnamed or misidentified rose.

Cass, that cane and those prickles look like the Francis Dubrieul that I got from Ashdown (thank you, Carol) and its canes really looks nothing like my other FD but the bloom is identical. I am wondering if ummmm...Barcelona, FD... not sure but there is a difference in the two even the bloom, though not identical is near-identical but canes and prickles look more like the rose you are holding.

After reading all this and thinking about it, I think we should visit Lady Hillingdon again. I am not sure her foliage, prickles and canes look like the other teas I have in my garden.

Thanks, Miss Pat.

I've grown Francis Dubreuil for years, and Lover's Delite is not it. FD has very typical early HT foliage and grows like a small Tea to about 4 feet tall and 6 feet wide.
{{gwi:234286}}