"Virused" roses are roses which are infected with one of several different forms of Rose Mosaic Virus.

I suggest you "GOOGLE" Rose Mosaic Virus, and read through some of the MANY articles on this important subject.

"Virus-Indexed" -- and I'm really simplifying here -- is a process which uses heat treatments to eliminate virus from some budwood, to create "Virus-Free" plants.

I don't know about the East Texas roses, but the process of creating budded rose plants, in the U.S. creates a never-ending round-robin of infected rootstock. So if it's anything like the process as we've seen it in CA, we pretty much figure all of that Dr. Huey rootstock is infected. And we avoid it, when we can.

The roses which are just coming out now, are for the most part being grown on their own roots.
Tom Carruth told me a few years ago that potential new introductions just wouldn't be introduced if they would not grow own-root.
If we are all very fortunate, they will never be budded to infected rootstock.

Jeri

There were some companies that touted "Virus-indexed budwood" which may have been true, but was misleading when the VI budwood was added to rootstock that wasn't Virus Indexed. The end product was a rose with RMV. Which RMV or RMVs? It would take a battery of at least 8 tests to tell which ones.
Virus Indexing specifically refers to germplasm tested to determine the absence of virus in the plant.
Removal of viruses has been done by heat treatment; there is some discussion of micropropagation as a method of propagating a plant without virus, by taking cells from the most active growing area that have not been infected by virus, yet.
The ELISA tests are designed to test for individual viruses. The company Agdia are the ones who developed the serum tests.

Here is a link that might be useful: The eight viruses and more specifics

Hi Jeri, When I buy roses at local nurseries or at big box stores will it tell what stock they are grafted on or if its own root? Probably not, huh?? So if I happen to get one that is virused will it harm the other roses or will they be OK? Thanks, Judy

Thanks Ann, I was sending my other response when you sent yours. These things get so confusing and I don't want to buy some that will mess up all my other roses. Thanks for your help, Judy

Some of my best and healthiest roses are from "East Texas". It just depends upon from whom you buy them.

Randy

I was so disappointed to find that my Ferdinand Picard that I received from Pickering's was virused. My first FP was so healthy and vigorous, but succummed to deer death. Go Figure. Cyterum (sorry I could have spelled that wrong) on our board, posted that all Pickering's FP are virused. The third year is coming up, that may determine if I will get rid of it or not. But I really want this rose, anyone know where I can get a good one, thanks!
Pauline - Vancouver Island

Pauline,
There are probably roses out there for which no un-virused versions exist. It goes to their age and their need to be grafted to do well enough to live from year to year. People who love heirloom roses have have supported heat treatment to clean up some of the roses.
If there's no 'clean' version, the best you can do is buy the rose on rootstock that works best for your garden. Dr. Huey isn't best for all of North America; multiflora works for some of us. Manetti used to be the better rootstock for part of the country. Canina is beloved in parts of europe. Fortuniana reigns elsewhere.
Once upon a time people made their own roses. Some books from the 1800s talk about the need to repropagate a rose every three years. I don't do this, but I keep nagging myself that I need to.

Judy, for plants sold locally, unless the plant is marked "own root" you can pretty much be sure that it is grafted on Dr. Huey rootstock. Ask the vendor to be sure, the locally owned placed should know, and if they don't, they need to find out for you.

Diane's got it.
The big budded plants in plastic bags, sold by major outlets, are PROBABLY budded on
Dr. Huey rootstock, and I'd be VERY surprised if they were not virused.

As Ann said, there are roses for which no virus-free material exists.
There, you either grow it anyhow, or do without it.

Most of the smaller own-root nurseries (Vintage, Ashdown, Rogue Valley, et al)
often note in their descriptive information whether
a rose is virus-free. If not -- ASK.

Jeri

It is very likely that there are no unvirused plants of 'Ferdinand Pichard' in commerce. The likelihood is that all plants of it came from a single specimen, probably back in the 1950's or 60's and the company that put it back in commerce budded immediately onto virused 'Dr Huey'.

That said, if the plant is prospering, keep it. If it ain't then toss it and get a different variety that will prosper. You can't assume that a cultivar isn't doing well in your garden and your climate solely because of its virus infection(s), it could be just because its not right for your climate/site.

"...we pretty much figure all of that Dr. Huey rootstock is infected. And we avoid it, when we can."

I'm confused. From reading this forum, I thought that I should use Dr. Huey plants if I couldn't get them on own root. I'm in SoCal, and read that Dr. Huey is better than multiflora or fortuniana for my alkaline water and soil. Does this mean that the roses I ordered on Dr. Huey will get RMV?

"Does this mean that the roses I ordered on Dr. Huey will get RMV?"

No, it means that many of the roses you have and/or plan to acquire on 'Dr. Huey' rootstock already have RMV. (or other viruses affecting Roses) Sorry, but its a fact. Only if a grower states that they are using VID 'Dr. Huey' are they producing virus free plants on that particular rootstock. All others are suspect.

Also, Decagon, Fortuniana grows here in SoCal like a house afire.
AFAICS, it's a terrific rootstock for SoCal.
I suspect Ragged Robin is, too, tho it is no longer used.
It certainly is a survivor here.

Huey -- well it's probably fine for SoCal, but if it is virused, it is -- NotGood.
And most of it is.

Jeri
Coastal Ventura County, SoCalif

Thanks everyone for the clarification and information. I wish I knew this little, yet important, tidbit of knowledge before I ordered my roses. *sigh* Just another novice mistake I suppose.

So, in plain English, the roses I ordered WILL get RMV and die...right?

I guess it's time for the next question. Is there anything I can do before or after planting the bare roots to prevent, or at least lessen the risk of, disease emerging?

I know they're on Dr. Huey root stock, but didn't ask about any special treatment for viruses. I already sent an email with that question, but haven't gotten an answer yet. I'm starting to wonder if I should cancel my order.

Just a quick follow up since it looks like I should start buying elsewhere...

Who are the better vendors who use fortuniana root stock?

So, in plain English, the roses I ordered WILL get RMV and die...right?

decagon, no, not necessarily. And it is not that the plant will "get" RMV, as trospero said, the plant already has RMV. There are many own root plants that have RMV too, BTW. However, there are many, many plants out there that are on Dr. Huey rootstock, they are healthy, vigorous, growers. I have had Lagerfeld for 17 years, it was boxed, on Dr. Huey rootstock, doing just fine, thank you, as are many of my other roses on Dr. Huey. Have I owned a few that were virused? Yes. But, if it is a rose that I really want, then I will buy it on Dr. Huey rootstock. I do prefer R. multiflora rootstock because it does better in my garden but will still buy on Dr. Huey if I want the rose.

"So, in plain English, the roses I ordered WILL get RMV and die...right?"

No. It means that roses purchased on 'Dr. Huey' are at much higher risk of being infected with viruses, but its not a guarantee that they are infected. In warm climates with mild Winters (I assume thats you) then RMV is (and I say this with caution) mostly a cosmetic issue. Studies have shown that virus infected roses suffer a loss of performance in the 15-20% range, but most of us can live with that. In cold Winter climates, viruses have been shown to dramatically decrease the plant's ability to survive the Winters, and plants will often decline in a few short years and die.

What does this mean for you? Probably not too much, in all honesty. Many roses grown in your climate fare quite well in spite of their virus load. The chances of decreased Winter survivability in your climate are practically nonexistent. Will RMV kill your roses outright? No. I don't think anyone has proven that RMV (Prunus Necrotic Ringspot Virus) has directly resulted in the death of a rose, outside of the aforementioned loss of Winter hardiness, which is an indirect effect. The only measurable effect you will see in your plants is the occasional display of the classic pale mosaic markings on the foliage which can be dramatic in some varieties, and much less so in others. What you won't be able to see is a decreased performance of bloom production and plant vigor, because you won't likely have a "clean" specimen to measure it against.

The fact is that many roses in commerce are infected with one or more viruses. Some rose growers get really angry about this, especially if you happen to buy brand new introductions and discover they are infected from the word go. The older the variety is, the greater the odds that it has at least one virus, especially if it has ever been grafted to 'Dr Huey' roots. Some nurseries (Like Pickering Nurseries in Ontario Canada) have a very strict program of budding their roses onto seed grown R. multiflora to avoid the spread of virus. (Not all of their roses are guaranteed virus free simply because some of the really old varieties have been virused for many, many years and no "clean" specimens exist. That's another topic entirely...)

Many rose growers are more "relaxed" about virus in roses, and I count myself among them. I grow many of the Old European Roses, some of which have been in commerce for over 100 years. Many (most?) of these older cultivars are surely infected with one or more viruses they have acquired through many generations of propagation. Most of these old cultivars perform beautifully in spite of their infections, and (in my experience) most of these roses never show any visible signs of infection. For this reason I am willing to tolerate their presence in my garden. My philosophy is: "If it grows well and blooms to my expectations, it can stay, virused or not." As other experienced growers will tell you, many roses simply do not exist as virus free specimens, anywhere in commerce. So, we take 'em as we find 'em.

One last thing: depending on who you ask, virused roses may or may not pose a threat to any un-virused roses you already grow. It has been speculated (but not proven) that virus might possibly be spread by pruning tools as you move through the garden, pruning one rose and then another. So it might be possible to spread the virus from one rose to the next while pruning. Personally, I think the risk is small, but you need to decide whether or not this is an issue of concern for you. I also think it is unwise to panic when considering the prospect of virus in roses. Many novices completely lose their cool when they first learn about viruses and tear out their collection of perfectly lovely (but potentially virused) roses for fear of the collection falling into inevitable decline and demise. I suggest you learn as much as you can about rose viruses and decide for yourself how you wish to proceed. Many of us choose to avoid certain vendors who use certain rootstocks known to harbor virus(es). Some of us aggressively watch for signs of RMV and ruthlessly remove and replace any rose that shows symptoms. Some of us are willing to live with a virused specimen or two, knowing that there are no virus free specimens to be had, realizing also that the risk to the rest of our roses is slim-to-none. It sounds to me like you've started to make some decisions regarding your personal guidelines for dealing with rose viruses and find out where your comfort zone is. That's a good thing. :-)

I hope this helps.

Paul

Thanks Paul. I thought I would chime in a minute on this post that I started a few days ago. Since I am so new to roses all this virus stuff is new and kinda scary until you explained it that way. I guess I can try to recognize if a plant has the virus or not and deal with it accordingly. I was afraid if I did have a rose with a certain virus it would spread to all the others and their health would decline. If the plant is performing well then I just won't worry about it getting anything and if one starts to decline then I can investigate to see what the problem might be. I just want to relax and enjoy my flowers. Thanks everyone for all your advice and knowledge. Take care, Judy

Judy said: "If the plant is performing well then I just won't worry about it getting anything and if one starts to decline then I can investigate to see what the problem might be. I just want to relax and enjoy my flowers."

More sensible words were never spoke! Good for you. :-)

Paul

*breathes sigh of relief*

Thank you Paul for your incredibly informative and calming post! You stopped my moment of despair dead in its tracks. I'm back to anticipating the arrival of my first roses and, like Judy, will take the viruses in stride and evaluate individual plants if and when they pose a problem.

Plus, in the long run, there's a silver living...it may give me the chance to change out roses rather than miss out planting some I don't have room for now.

Just a quick chime in on this post - National Geographic has been running a special on the nature of viral infections. Just because a living organism has or carry's a virus, does not mean it is a bad thing. Viral organism's serve a purpose in the life cycle.

Daun,
If rose viruses were good things, we wouldn't notice them. The same viruses are known and were first identified in fruit trees (Rosaceae) because the fruit trees weren't as productive, etc.
Until you've watched RMV leaf patterns emerge at the same time as your roses become significantly less productive, regardless of the culture, you can write Daun's last sentence without realizing the potential for disaster. Right now, it's a zone thing that seems worse in zones 6 and 7. Colder zones get hard pruned by winter every year reducing the disease titer in the plants; warmer zones seem to handle it better. But with more viruses showing up, synergy may let other zones share the decline of roses. Synergy in plant diseases (oversimplified) means that take the symptoms of Disease 1, add to it Disease 2 with different symptoms, and what happens to the plant is not just a simple addition of diseases 1 and 2, but often the emergence of worse and different symptoms than would have been the results of simple addition.
NO. That's a generalization that's bad. Viral organisms do not serve a purpose in the life cycle. AIDS has no purpose. Rose Rosette (virus or phytoplasm or something else) has NO purpose. Even the RMV's were proven under ideal conditions in California to lead to a loss in productivity of the rose blooms.

The problem with viruses and other diseases is that they spread.

Just because NatGeo says it, doesn't mean it's universally applicable.

For me one of the worst examples of virused roses was Climbing Yellow Blaze (Sun Flare, Cl). When it first came out, I decided to breed from it and purchased a number of them (at least 3 - maybe more). There were very distinct virus symptons, and none survived.

Can anyone outside of very warm climates comment on their experience with this rose? I say outside of very warm climates because PNRSV (which is considered to be the most common virus of those collectively called RMV) is a temperature sensitive virus, see:

http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/info_about_virus.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: comments about RMV

It has been very informative reading the responses from some very intelligent and informed rose gardeners on this forum. I myself do not know about each and every virus known to rosedom, but I will say that the only one I will not tolerate and will immediately remove is the one that has those yellow squiggly lines on the leaves. They are out right away. I know of a prominent rose nursery that I received one of those plants from and I won't order from them again. I have received good ones from them in the past, so I don't want to damage their reputation, since you could get a bad plant from so many vendors, but once I get an obvious yellow zig-zag one, I don't trust the vendor anymore. I do worry though about the passing of the virus to healthy plants. Not much is known about that. Like the pruners thing. I don't want to dip my pruners in alcohol every time I prune and if I remove a virused plant do I worry about any plant that is put in that location that might get the virus? Gosh, I agree with the advice that if the rose is blooming like crazy and is giving you pleasure to behold it, keep it and enjoy.

Chance

"you could get a bad plant from so many vendors, but once I get an obvious yellow zig-zag one, I don't trust the vendor anymore."

Ahh yes, the "baby and the bathwater" approach to buying roses. Unless you know for a fact that a particular rose you are buying has never, ever been grafted onto a different rootstock, then you have no guarantee that its not infected with one or more viruses. A second reasonably trustworthy scenario is if the nursery is grafting onto certified virus free rootstock and they have certified the scion variety is virus free as well. (aka VID) If you are prepared to abandon a supplier because it sold you one virused rose, then you can't trust any of them. Believe me, every rose nursery has some virused plants in their collection and they probably don't even know, since so often they show no signs of the disease! How can you fault them for that???

Many experienced rose growers prefer to ask the nurseries they buy from about the rose's provenance and whether or not the nursery knows the infection status of that variety. Most suppliers have a pretty good idea what's what.

Lastly, I'll say this again: any rose that has ever been budded to a foreign rootstock is at risk of being infected with virus. That's a lot of roses, by my count.

Trospero, you are right in your response to my over-reacting to not buying again from a vendor that has sold me a plant that develops yellow zig-zag lines of obvious virus on the leaves, but that is just my illogical nature. The supplier of the virused rose told me all their roses are checked for virus and sent healthy. Those were their words, not mine. I just prefer to order own-root after that experience. I realize there are no guarantees, but there you have it.

Chance

Chance said: "The supplier of the virused rose told me all their roses are checked for virus and sent healthy. Those were their words, not mine."

Well now, that is a different matter entirely. In that instance the company is misrepresenting itself and its product. In that case, I wouldn't trust them either and I think you are entirely justified to feel the way you do about their "policy" regarding virus.

Regards,
Paul

I second the comment about Cl. Sunflare. I grew this rose about 10 years ago and it quickly became a favorite. I bought a new plant for my new house which was in no way as good as the first one I had had. Didn't grow as well, bloom as much, and the flowers were not nearly as pretty. I put the poor performance down to location, and then noticed the jagged marks on the leaves. I have been told that probably all plants of Cl. Sunflare are virused. It is sold by a west coast nursery. When I emailed to ask about virus I received no response. I shall not be purchasing from that nursery. I have never failed to get a response to any question I might have from Vintage, which sells far more varieties, and has way fewer employees.

Another which is virused is the old Peace sport Lucky Peace, and probably is not available unvirused. I still grow both, because I like both.

I do think there is very little excuse for virus infection of Cl. Sunflare, which wasn't introduced intill the 1990s, when the producers should have known enough to avoid the disease. If it is too much trouble to grow rootstock from seed, they could at least have procured virus free rootstock. UC Davis sells VID Dr. Huey.

A

When did virus indexing finally become a marketing issue--when rose buyers finally started to wise up?

Zack
The State of Michigan got tired of roses dieing in their citizens' gardens and they did a major program requiring that roses sold in Michigan not only be correctly named varieties, but also that they be free of virus. (Some years walks through MI gardencenters had horrific high percentages of virus showing...spring growing stress can bring it out.) The Michigan program continued for some time. New Jersey tried it briefly.
A local seller here in TN said all that did was assure us in TN that we were getting higher percents of virused roses...the ones that couldn't be sold in the more circumspect states would end up here and in other states without the no-RMV requirement.

Sadly, RMV is still out there and most folks remain clueless.

Ann,
Are you aware of what requirements nurseries must meet in order to pass certification for that "virus free" status?: a five minute inspection by an ag agent to look for visual symptoms of RMV in a random selection of plants. If the agent sees no symptoms, the nursery gets the certification.

While I think the concept of the program is meritorious, the implementation renders it meaningless. Thats just the way it is. There is no money or manpower to do what is needed to truly make that program work as it should.

Well now, that is a different matter entirely. In that instance the company is misrepresenting itself and its product

*** Paul's right.
Now, I have no problem growing a virused rose, if that's the only way I can have it.
In my climate, that's not a huge problem.
HOWEVER, I prefer virus-free.

There have been vendors in the past, and likely are now, who claim to sell only virus-free roses.
The question to ask them is: "Were the roses TESTED virus free?"

If they say: "No. But they come from England!"
Or: "No. but we've watched these plants and they show no virus."
Or: "No. But our plants are sold on their own roots."
NO SALE!

The only correct answer is that they were tested.
And, EVEN THEN, as Paul points out, if that cultivar has at some point in the past
been budded, there's always a chance it can be virused.

Jeri

In my hypothetical more perfect world, people who buy roses would get a healthy plant that would be as dependable as a forsythia or a crabapple.

*** Well, they exist.
But you gotta kiss a lotta toads, before you find the Handsome Prince. ;-)
And of course, the ones that meet those criteria where I am might not meet 'em where you are.

We've got a rose society meeting tonight. I walked down the hill -- despite the rain, and PARTICULARLY the wind, I found two Boule de Niege (one slightly wind-damaged), a spray of Excellenz von Schubert, A couple of beautiful Cramoisi superieur, two sprays of F. First Love (a mite resistant fuchsia somewhat reminiscent of F. arborea), A bit of R. banksiae-banksiae, A Mrs. BR Cant, General de Tartas, and Mme. Berkeley.
:-)

Jeri