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Where to buy virus-free roses?

dublinbay z6 (KS)
11 years ago

I personally don't worry much, one way or another, about RMV (rose mosaic virus), but just for the record, could we come up with a list of online places where we can order indexed or heat-treated (and whatever else is done to eliminate RMV) roses?

It would be helpful to have such a list on file--for future reference.

Thanks.

Kate

Comments (58)

  • Kippy
    11 years ago

    Thanks!

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    My first link makes it clear who Mr. L is in the context of the first link that you presented in this thread.
    -------------------------------
    The quotes below are from the thread that you linked to.

    "On a related matter of interest to me - some years ago the collection with which I am associated sent budwood (gratis) of a great many OGR varieties to the group responsible for the start-up of the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden. The propagation from that material was carried out by Tom L, who has since - and frequently - been lambasted by rosarians on this forum for selling virused material."

    ---------------------------------
    In reference to Tom L -- I seem to remember that he had plants budded by a third party vendor, and discovered to his dismay that all the rootstock they used was diseased. It was a bad year for him. In that case, healthy budwood became contaminated by the rootstock. Could that have been the budwood you are describing, Jon? I had no idea that it was such valuable material. This would have been sometime in the early 1990s when I was still fairly new to old roses. Perhaps someone else who was active then could remember the details more clearly. It was much discussed here on this forum before mention of Mr L's name was banned on GW and he became known as the Unmentionable Rose Grower."
    --------------------------------

    Jon -- Re. the Heritage.
    I actually asked that question. The answer was that the roses planted in the Heritage were NOT grown with Mr. L's commercial stock, and they were planted on VI Huey rootstock.
    ---------------------------------
    The second link allows the reader to read about his important contribution to Antique Roses. For the newcomer I expect that my second link alone or your link would be vague on who exactly is being referred to.
    ==========================================
    Even though you admit that a search of both roses and Antique Roses does not support your statement about: "this old, obsolete thread you have posted to these forums probably half a dozen times in the past year", you still now state: "you have repeatedly posted"??????

    Here is a link that might be useful: Link that Kim gave and that the above quotes are from

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  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    No, Henry. My "perhaps not" refers to your statement that a Google search of your given address returned no matches. However, copying and pasting that address provides the same destination as clicking on your easy link. I do not admit there is no support for the statement. I do reiterate that you continue to heavy handedly repost that same, tired, already discussed and discounted information. With that, I am finished. Enjoy your "fun". Kim

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    Help-Me_Find includes a "buy from" for each rose listed. Perhaps, the poster of that information could be requested to include whether that seller states that it is virus indexed.

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    Get real. Many of the nursery listings are out of date because the nurseries won't keep them updated and there are far too few volunteer hands to accomplish it. Updating nursery listings really isn't the volunteers' job in the first place. Other than Vintage which indicates particular VI varieties; Pickering which states all are tested/treated and Heirloom which states what they state, are there any others who make any virus claims at all? Kim

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    11 years ago

    Vintage Gardens will have a new release of roses beginning tomorrow and there are many VID (virus indexed) roses among their new offerings, most of them however being floribundas and hybrid teas. Still, many of these are hard to find varieties and may be of interest.

    Ingrid

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    Regarding listing in Help-Me-Find. I am a hybridizer, I am responsible for listing and updating my roses. If the dealers would be made responsible for listing and updating what they sell in the "Buy From" section, it could possibly be much more up to date and include information about whether their plant is from virus indexed stock. I would expect that dealers who incurred the expense of obtaining a virused index version of a rose would be interested in the competative edge that adding that information would give them.

  • trospero
    11 years ago

    "If the dealers would be made responsible for listing and updating what they sell in the "Buy From" section, it could possibly be much more up to date and include information about whether their plant is from virus indexed stock."

    The "dealers" are responsible for keeping their HMF listings up to date. However, if you have the slightest insight into the day-to-day operations of most (all??) of these specialty nurseries, you would recognize just how little time any of these entities has for piddling data entry work of this nature. Most of them are just trying their damnedest to stay in business and handle the core activities that support that goal. As Kim said, "get real!"

    It must be nice to have nothing better to do that Google yourself silly, digging up all manner of irrelevant "scientific" papers and connecting a myriad of dots that have no logical connection.

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    Since the dealers are responsible for keeping their HMF listings up to date, it would appear that a simple addition to the HMF form that is used of a place to check if based on virused stock would be sufficient.

  • Kippy
    11 years ago

    If I had to go to someone else's website to update for every sale/change/item removed from inventory when running a business, I would soon change my ad to just contact me for availability.

    Only very small producers when limited sales would be interested in updating with every sale.

    Just a business thought

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    Why would they have to update with every sale?

    When I check HMF to see who carries XXX, I assume that I then still have to go to the individual nursery web site to check if it is still shipping.

    I do not consider Help-Me-Find as just another website; I consider it more useful than any other including the one that I helped start - The ARS one. If you are interested in the direction that I was hoping that the ARS one would take, please see my article "Roses on the Internet" in the 1960 American Rose Annual, pages 87-89.

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    Regarding what I do with my time, the link below is one example.

    (The link in it to my web page is out of date, the new one is: http://home.roadrunner.com/~kuska/ )

    Here is a link that might be useful: One of my contributions

  • dublinbay z6 (KS)
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Wow--I didn't realize I pulled someone's finger out of the dike and let loose a flood upon this forum!

    All I wanted was a simple answer to my question of which places carry VID roses.

    I take it the simple (and hopefully correct?) answer is:
    Pickering
    Vintage
    Antique Rose emporium (mostly floribundas and HTs)
    Heirloom

    Is that right?

    Thanks for everybody's contribution.

    Kate

  • malcolm_manners
    11 years ago

    Kate, Antique Rose Emporium is not mostly Floribundas and HTs -- they have quite a good selection of old garden roses as well. But otherwise, yes.

    And yes, any mention of the word "Virus" on this forum seems always to bring on the finger-out-of-the-dike deluge of loony ideas.

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    dublinbay z6 KS, you are not responsible for pulling anyone's finger out of a dike. You asked a very valid question.

    Since Mr.T has been discussed in what I felt was in less than positive tones in the closed thread (but not by all, thanks Jeri) that was linked to here, and since a specific question concerning him was asked; I felt that this sub thread provided me with the opportunity to present some historical information about a person that I greatly respect, (he has since died).

    If you decide to check the 1996 American Rose Annual, I recommend that you also look at Mr.T's article on pages 71-73.

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    Henry, is the "Mr. T" you refer to, "Mr. L"? If so, when did he pass? Kim

  • ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
    11 years ago

    It's Vintage that has many floribunda and hybrid teas that are virus indexed, but so are some of the older rose types.

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    roseseek, I could not any record, it appears that my memory mixed up Mel Hulse's passing with Myron L.'s (T's real first name).

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    Thanks Henry, yes, I know his name. At one time, I knew him quite well. Kim

  • dublinbay z6 (KS)
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    OK--I think I got it straight now.

    Places that carry VID roses:
    Pickering
    Vintage
    Antique Rose Emporium
    Heirloom

    And I take it that some of their roses may also NOT be VID?

    Like I said, I'm not really hung up on whether roses have RMV or not. I know for sure my Earth Song has RMV, but it is one of my strongest bloomers and has been for a number of years. I just wanted to make sure I am accurately informed about the various nuseries.

    Kate

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    It's a bit more confusing than that, Kate. "VI" or "VID" indicates material which has originated with UC Davis. They are but one of several facilities which test/treat stock. Vintage indicates which roses originated at Davis with the "VI" or "VID" label.

    Pickering goes so far as to state every rose they sell has been tested/treated, but they do not carry the "VI" or "VID" designation as they apparently were not processed by Davis.

    ARE, and some others listed in the original thread from January-February, obtained SOME rose varieties from Florida which were tested/treated, but they carry no special designation to indicate their RMV status. Nor have these nurseries otherwise indicated they have been tested/treated.

    Heirloom...well, read their site and determine for yourself. Their long stated "own root roses are virus free. Our roses are all own root, therefore all out roses are virus free!" advertising is highly questionable. Deeper in, they speak of how they have worked with a facility to test/treat their roses. One, I guess, is left to presume all of their varieties have been tested/treated, however, they don't specify that as Pickering has. Search "virus free" on the Heirloom site. You come up with the five rose varieties at the link shown below. Some, you have to dig deeper to find where "virus free" is mentioned.

    Leaving us all back at the point of, order the VI stock from Vintage; order anything Pickering offers; or ASK any of the others to determine whether or not what you seek IS or is not a rose which has been tested/treated. Kim

    Here is a link that might be useful: Heirloom virus free search

  • dublinbay z6 (KS)
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    OK--now I have it:

    1. Order the VI stock from Vintage;

    2. Order anything Pickering offers;

    3. ASK any of the others to determine whether or not what you seek IS or is not a rose which has been tested/treated.

    Have I got it right now?

    Thanks Kim for your help. Coincidentally, a number of my last rose orders came from Pickering--but I don't remember exactly which ones because I never paid that much attention.

    Kate

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    Yes ma'am, Kate. To my eye, that would seem the best way to make sure what you are ordering has been processed the way you are seeking.

    For a larger business with more resources and higher sales, I can see where advertising this information could be a beneficial marketing tool. For smaller nurseries, I can also see where it would be a liability. If indexed-tested-treated plants are so desirable, why aren't all of them so treated? Time and money, of course. Stating this or that one is special makes the others seem not so special and perhaps a bit "dangerous". I can also see where a nursery, particularly one which doesn't have the "luxury" of a support staff, would not want to make a target of themselves. Many people love to complain and will target roses advertised as "special". Both Uncommon and Euro Desert had tremendous issues with unstable sports reverting and had their share of chronic malcontents who, even though it was flatly, plainly stated there could be no guaranty the unstable sport would not revert, went to extremes to cause them grief when it happened, even with free replacements (which also reverted) and refunds. Consider what kinds of customer service and reputation issues could easily arise should anything look suspicious with "virus free" plants. It's definitely not an issue I would relish having to deal with. The time and cost alone, added to an already over-flowing work load would be crippling. From discussions I've had with a number of nurseries in the past, it is definitely why many simply avoid the issue all together. Kim

  • trospero
    11 years ago

    As usual, Kim is the voice of reason (and experience) in these matters. Thank you, sir.

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    You're welcome, sir, thank you! Kim

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    Kim's "reasoning" concerning some/many small nurseries may be correct, but that does not address the issue of whether Help-Me-Find should take the lead in promoting virus tested roses by providing a place on the form for that information. It is still optional for each nursery to fill that section out.

    Some states feel that virus infected plants should not be sold, this includes Wisconsin.
    See the Table on page 109 of the link below, they report that they found during the most recent inspection period, March 2 - June 21, 2012, Rose Mosaic Virus in: Coral Cove, Knock Out, Coral Drift, Miss All American, and Garden Party.
    What do they do if the rose tests positive?
    "To limit the spread of these destructive plant diseases to garden plants and crops, DATCP requires all virus-infected nursery stock to be removed from sale and destroyed."

    Here is a link that might be useful: Wisconsin link

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    11 years ago

    Then...why don't you contact HelpMeFind and ask them yourself? It seems rather circuitous to say on this forum what they should or shouldn't do with their own database.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    AquaEyes stated: " It seems rather circuitous to say on this forum what they should or shouldn't do with their own database."
    H.Kuska comment: I brought up a possibility. This is an open forum. In forums, possibilities are discussed. After a discussion of pros and cons and alternate ways of handling the issue, if there would be sufficient interest, then a formal compromise request by Help-Me-Find members could be made to Help-Me-Find's board to consider (or the whole idea could be scrapped).

    If the rose industry does not take this seriously, it is possible that the federal government may step in.

    You may find the following very recent (Posted online on 10 Feb 2012) scientific paper (with a USDA co-author) of interest .
    http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/PDIS-11-11-0928-FE
    "Some of the viruses associated with desirable effects in ornamental plants include virus species that are capable of causing disease in economically important crops. Therefore, regulatory procedures may have to be implemented with some of these viruses to minimize their dissemination."

    The above proposal sound similar to what the state of Wisconsin is doing.

    Here is a link that might be useful: scientific paper (with a USDA co-author)

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    11 years ago

    You're discussing asking the administrator(s) of an internet database to include information in its files, not negotiating the return of hostages. I think you are making this matter way more difficult than it is. Just ask them.

    Perhaps it's not the resolution you enjoy, but dragging out the process?

    ;-)

    ~Christopher

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    AquaEyes, I took the time to respond to your suggestion. i.e. it was noted, considered, and my explanation was presented. I am sorry if you interpret my responding to your suggestion as "dragging out the process". I consider it an internet "courtesy".

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    11 years ago

    Well, I prefer a more direct route.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

    Here is a link that might be useful: I asked

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    AquaEyes Thank you very much.

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    Henry, my "reasoning" is firmly based upon more than a decade of personal, hands-on experience in wholesale and retail, specialty as well as full-line landscape nursery operation and management. It must truly be wonderful existing in an "ivory tower utopia" where everything is logical; everything is possible and you have the perfect answer for every problem. Feh!

    And, by golly, Henry, you are absolutely right! The nearly dead American Rose Industry is way more concerned about remaining ALIVE than this horrific virused rose issue. Therefore, my suggestion to you is to put your money where your suggestions are. Contact the owners of HMF at this address:

    roses@HelpMeFind.com

    to inquire how much it will cost to program the site to differentiate between the same cultivar in VI and non VI forms, then send them the payment to create and maintain that change for the next 25 years. Charging the listing nurseries to accomplish the necessary changes won't work. You see how many of them feel the site isn't worth supporting by how many aren't paying members. You see how many users don't feel the site worth their $2 a month, either. Do you honestly feel adding that information to the Premium Membership is going to encourage more people to spend $2 a month to support the site?

    I wholeheartedly agree with you, Christopher. Henry, you've already gotten to know all too well. What he is doing also has historical precedence here on GW. It is the "Garden Web Mind Set" as evidenced by "The Synonym Decision" thread from last year, linked below.

    It is definitely a whole lot EASIER to complain about something than to actually make an effort to FIX it. Apparently, a whale of a lot more fun, too. Kim

    Here is a link that might be useful: The Synonym Decision

  • trospero
    11 years ago

    Ya know, instead of saying all the tings Kim just said, I bit my tongue and went out for a bicycle ride in the sunshine instead. I'm glad I made that choice, but I am certainly glad Kim said what he did, and I agree with these statements wholeheartedly.

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    Roseseek said:"Henry, my "reasoning" is firmly based upon more than a decade of personal, hands-on experience in wholesale and retail, specialty as well as full-line landscape nursery operation and management."

    H.Kuska comment. I realize what experience you have had and that is one of the reasons that I posted my suggestion to this site. i.e. your experience is often sought out by long term posters in the rose forums.
    I stated previously: "I brought up a possibility. This is an open forum. In forums, possibilities are discussed. After a discussion of pros and cons and alternate ways of handling the issue, if there would be sufficient interest, then a formal compromise request by Help-Me-Find members could be made to Help-Me-Find's board to consider (or the whole idea could be scrapped)."

    Please notice the use of: "formal compromise request"
    AND
    "(or the whole idea could be scrapped)."

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    OR, one person (ANY one person), who will have the same influence on the "HMF Board" as any "formal group", could simply write one, easy email to the address I provided above, simply stating the issue and asking if this change could be easily, economically accomplished. From experience, "The Board" takes the request/suggestion to the Admin Group where it is discussed and if it is considered beneficial and the resources are available for implementation immediately, it happens immediately.

    This isn't academia nor government where enormous amounts of time and expense are required to "dot an I". If it is a good idea and can be accommodated now, it happens now. What an amazing concept! I asked about putting in archival nursery listings. Discussion took less than a handful of emails, the slight programming tweaks occurred that day, and I was given the blessing. The first one went up that evening as I already had worked the information to the appropriate form necessary.

    If you want to absorb more time and fill GW's servers with more discussion, go for it. If you want to see if it CAN be accomplished, you know what to do. Kim

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    Henry, after ruminating on this for a while, if you really want to affect change, if you really want to head up a "committee", form a formal group to encourage and solicit HMF (and other) users to become paying members. Whether they wish to avail themselves of the premium membership benefits or not, if all of the folks who USE HMF, PAID for HMF, you would see tremendous accomplishments!

    HMF has only scratched the surface of what it CAN do and what it CAN provide for the rose world. They already have a VERY long list of enhancements, including many of the suggestions already offered by site users which they wish to see implemented, and MORE. Many of the users who have asked for enhancements aren't even paying members. They use the site; they make requests for changes and benefits, but see no obligation to actually SUPPORT the site. The only thing holding HMF back is MONEY. If everyone who USED the site, PAID to support the site, I know you and everyone else would be amazed. I've heard of some of the proposed enhancements, and I can't wait for the money to be available!

    The "rose world" has already spoken. Premium, paying members are a very small percentage of the HMF daily site users. There are many thousands of hits there every day and the majority are NOT supporting members. "The Rose World" doesn't value HMF sufficiently to support it, to enable it to take up the causes you and others think they should. Why should they support any of these causes, try to affect any of these changes, become the "standard bearer" you want them to be? Until "rose lovers" value this resource enough to support it, to enable it to remain on line and become more of what it could be, what obligation does HMF have to put out those kinds of efforts and absorb the costs associated with them?

    HMF is a tool. How valuable a tool depends entirely upon all site users' support. Until now, it's been a constant struggle because the overwhelming majority of those who USE the site, don't value it enough to PAY for it. Make a change, get more people to open their wallets and become supporting members. Then, you will have really improved the "rose world". Kim

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    In case someone wonders whether I am a Member, this is a quote:
    "Henry Kuska
    Henry Kuska / kuska@neo.rr.com
    Premium Member (expires on 1 Oct 2012)"

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    Yes, Henry, I did look, long before you posted you were a member, and I know HMF and the rest of the members and I appreciate that. But, if you want to make that difference, create a coalition of other members with you. Your (and my) memberships do their parts, as do any and all outright donations. But, if you want to affect change, really make a difference, begin shepherding in other new members right and left.

    There is so much MORE HMF can be, and wants to be. It just takes money...Kim

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    11 years ago

    Perhaps they should limit the number of searches possible per day without a paid membership.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    I consider my statement in this thread:
    "I do not consider Help-Me-Find as just another website; I consider it more useful than any other including the one that I helped start - The ARS one."

    as contributing to what Kim is advocating in his statement: "But, if you want to affect change, really make a difference, begin shepherding in other new members right and left."

  • trospero
    11 years ago

    If it were mine to administer, I would severely limit what non-paying members could access on HMF: limited search capability, no photos, no "where do I buy it" listings...etc. Perhaps then you would see how much people valued it. Pay up or shut up is my attitude.

    But I know HMF admin doesn't share my attitude on this matter, so all the freeloaders get 90% of the information, gratis. Why pay if you get the best of what it has to offer anyway??

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    A possible middle ground is to offer a free or very low cost limited time "trial membership".

  • roseseek
    11 years ago

    Henry ....
    You are not getting what I have suggested when you say HMF should offer a trial membership. It's not about what a site user would get, but about a site user supporting what they value.
    If you value HMF, support the site. There are two ways to do that:
    1) become a premium member
    2) send in a donation.
    There's nothing to trial. If the site user decides to use the extra benefits, fine. If not, fine ... they, as a member of the rose world, have shown that they value HMF. Kim.

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    The purpose of a free or low cost trial membership is to let the unfamilar rose grower see if they find VALUE in what a paid membership would offer above what they now can get free. It would appear that the free or low cost trial membership would only be meaningful if most features were withdrawn from the now free "Registered Member" classification. http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/membership.php?tab=3

    Here is a link that might be useful: present classifications

  • dublinbay z6 (KS)
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    You people certainly have no qualms about kidnapping someone else's thread, do you?

    Why don't you start your own thread if you want to discuss issues beyond the parameters of the original thread?

    Just wondering.

    Kate : )

  • kittymoonbeam
    11 years ago

    This is the usual debate that follows any discussion on Mosaic Virus. It's quite polarized but the facts need to be restated just the same for the benefit of any new readers.

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    Sorry, Dublinbay. I thought the Help-Me-Find discussion fit in with your initial statement: "It would be helpful to have such a list on file--for future reference."

  • henry_kuska
    11 years ago

    If you have not looked at the Help-Me-Find link (since initially posted by AquaEyes) about providing a place where virus information could be stored, I suggest that you do and encourage you to place your comments there (pro or con).

    Here is a link that might be useful: Help-Me-Find thread