first off thank you for taking the time to do this. Its a great idea. But if I'm to be perfectly honest I'd turn tails and find somewhere else to go if I saw this. Its very off putting. I mean no disrespect but IMHO a welcome message shouldn't be 2pages of what to do before posting, as conveyed through the tone of the message. I can understand a message saying welcome with some helpful tips for using the forum but you make it clear the purpose of the message is not to help and welcome newcomers but to reduce Redundant traffic. Hard to know what's redundant and what's not if youre new to the forum. and i would think twice about joining a forum that outwardly warns my post could be unwelcome or burdensome. you have a good start but IMHO get rid of that "member of 3years" reference and lay off the "before you post" tone that permeates the message. Its not welcoming in the slightest.

I can see it being a good idea, but I'm pretty much with terpguy. It doesn't come off as welcoming, to me, and it would definitely make me go to a more 'accessible' forum.

I think the big thing, I think is, someone who is internet savvy and a courteous poster will know all of the information. A person who doesn't have already have an idea of how to post 'appropriately' probably won't understand what you've got to say or understand how to follow the instructions.

Just some thoughts; I'm not trying to undermine your efforts, by any means. :)

Stacy

Whitecat, I think you did a good job. I like it. I vote yes :-)

A lot of forums use stickies in the form of a welcome message with instructions on proper posting techniques but it seems most people don't read them.

The real issue is there needs to be a separate forum for phals.

It is a great effort, and thank you for trying
But, I am with terpguy 100% percent. I think an effective welcome message should be shorter and contain less instructions...
Olya

Hm. First of all, I'm aerides (is there another?). I have had no part in this project to date!!

I have to agree with most of the above posters. It's too much. Please do not ask people to stop before posting. That is restrictive, even as a friendly suggestion. Also, most people want to express themselves. Fine to invite people to FAQs, but to suggest that they shouldn't post if their question has been answered in the FAQs is also restrictive.

I think the process of answering the same beginner questions over and over again, politely and patiently, is the price of attracting new members. People who like how they've been treated are encouraged to stay and grow here. If the long timers are weary of answering the same questions over and over, then taking a break from the forum isn't a terrible idea. I do that myself from time to time, and when I come back, I come back with renewed energy (and increased knowledge).

All in all, I think this idea is overkill. Sorry - it's clear that a lot of time and effort was put into this. And I know that it was well-meant and in response to some concerns that have been discussed on the forum. But I think in it's present form it is unnecessary and counterproductive.

John :>)

I agree with John.

A short message will be read. A longer one will be ignored.

Based on my experience as a long-time web designer and web communicator, I can guarantee you one thing:

People.
Don't.
Read.

I also appreciate the time and effort that it took to bring this message/post to life - quite an effort I'm sure! And thanks to WC8 for this!

I remember the thread when this idea came to be. And I haven't actively participated in a while (life and time really changed with a new job in late July). But I lurk, so I have also been paying attention.

I agree with those above who have said that this message may discourage newbies from posting. And that the 'savvy' will know to read FAQs and search prior to posting, while the others will not do so. I am a firm believer of ignoring the posts that you aren't interested in, and contributing to those that you are. Which is why I don't post to any phal questions, and ignore many 'HELP!!!!' posts. Other forums have different software which allows 'stickies' from moderators, here that isn't so. How many newbies really read those stickies do you think? Probably not too many.

But see, this is the fun of this forum! Are we all that serious that we must have perfectly posted questions? I (even recently) do sometimes jump in and try to help newbies and ask for more detailed info, but a newbie is just that... NEW.

Newbies are like puppies. They're young, new to us, and need a little training. They will, however, grow up to be the old dogs that train the next round of new puppies.

[Sigh] It's been almost 2 yrs for my real puppy, and she's still learning.

Carolyn

I like it, but agree that nobody will read it, in all probability.
And I totally agree with Carolyn - 99.9% of all first posts seem to be that old "I just got a phal, where do I cut the stem?" question, which I also agree, I simply am not willing or able to make a reply.
I still search the message archives; then again, I googlesearch and search other orchid boards, too. Don't want to be the only one who doesn't know about 2N and 4N (whatever they are!).
Happy New Year - Nancy

LOL! Aerides, how did the mix-up happen? Okay, folks - Aerides had zip to do with this project, and the person who contributed can claim credit or not. Obviously, EYE have no idea who that nice man was....

Last month, when the Welcome Message was begun, there was considerable frustration among many here over numerous, often repetitious questions from newcomers. Also, there were differences of opinion on the "right" way to answer them, if at all. There was support for a welcome message that asked newcomers to review FAQs and archives before posting, as well as other requests.

From responses on this thread, it appears that the mood has changed, and the message is no longer relevant.

If that's true, then it can fade away, along with 2007.

Whitecat8

I think the original idea had positive intentions, but in todays hectic lifestyle, brevity is much more effective than overkill. Do I detect a "schoolmarm" background? "A" for effort, but no thanks!

Albertan - LOL - you should see all the items people wanted included that were left out in the interests of brevity. WC8

Whitecat, maybe it's what I used to call my "early onset" alzheimers. Now I just call it my alzheimers. I should say that I have no memory of involvement in the project. I'm tempted towards editing projects in general, but there were enough interested individuals at the time that I think I remember not coming aboard.

Projects like this one can really eat up time and energy. Your graceful acceptance of the apparent consensus is a beautiful thing.

John :>)

GardenWeb already has these instructions posted at the top of the orchid forum page; to check FAQs, do a search, how to title a post, they even have a test forum for first-time posters, and a bunch of other recommentations.

So IMHO, this makes it pretty redundant to have a second set, unless a brief personal type of welcome is needed and then the point made that there is no such thing as a 'stupid' question, and perhaps something very basic about the need to know what kind of conditions you are growing under. But mostly: we're glad you're here and welcome to orchid growing.

John - The guy didn't claim to be you. Originally, I knew you and he were different people, then when he contributed to the welcome message, thought I was mistaken, that you were the same person.

When I asked if he wanted to be credited, and if so, under what name, he said use the name he used on the forum, which in my mixed-up brain, was Aerides.

So there you have it. My mistake all around.

And you're certainly welcome for my going w/ the consensus. Today's must-have can become tomorrow's "huh?"

CJ - Yes, your good points were made at the time, which is why some people were frustrated - newcomers weren't reading info on the first page, so perhaps a message that consolidated the info and stayed at the top of the page would help.

Snowpea - maybe in November, we were ignoring that part of our human nature that doesn't read, trying not only to lead the horse to water but also to make her drink. :)

Whitecat8

Well, it might just be me, but I don't consider it earth-shaking that they don't read the instructions and instead post a Phal spike question. I didn't realize it was so annoying to so many, though. But I don't have a problem answering their spike question and then telling them there is more great basic orchid information in the FAQs. Additionally, the newbie who asked and was answered a month earlier is in the perfect position now to answer this newcomer's question and in doing so, reinforce the information they have acquired and start sharing and contributing to the forum, and that feels good.

In a perfect world with perfect people, this wouldn't be an issue. I still don't think it is an issue, other than having a welcoming post. But that is just my opinion.

WhiteCat, after all that work you are remarkably philosophical about laying the project aside. I wonder how many on the forum would be able to do so with such equanimity. Thank you for all your effort.

It seems to me that we forget too quickly what it is like to be a Newbie--to orchids, to individual genera, or to an obscure variety that requires some unusual element of care not evident from its background.

Some are quick studies; some are great observers; others seem born with green thumbs. *sigh* Most of us learn by experience...and our mistakes...and by repetition. When someone asks a question for the umptieth time, it provides the opportunity for others to review information mentally, to compare responses to their experience, and to extract what is factual or useful to them for future reference. Reading the same information over and over again is ultimately a good thing.

Cjw makes a wonderful point about repeat questions providing the opportunity for former newbies to grow in knowledge and confidence by formulating answers to questions that once were theirs. If all are welcomed to the discussion the forum becomes a more excellent learning tool for all--old dogs and new.

Sweetcicely

Sweetcicely - So nicely put!

Now this is one of the few places where I have to disagree with cj. This forum has the reputation, and rightfully so though not as much as years past, of.having newbies answering newbies, which in this complex hobby I think every one can agree is a clear case of the blind leading the blind. Having newbies trying to teach newbies can be treacherous territory, even a simple spike question (wanna remove the spike off a sequential paph/phrag when the flower falls off? Newbies arent usually aware of sequential bloomers and similarly blooming plants). Every case is different, even spike questions, something newbies don't quite get, resulting in advise that is nothing more that generalities and heresay (I've heard that phals like low light but I only grow 3 vandas and I've only been growing for two months. Try growing it in a north window where no sun hits it) doesnt work. I am with her though that the asking of such questions isn't a big deal. That is what this forum is here for. They annoy me too but I'll answer them as well. For all the help I received when I started out, I owe it I those who helped me to pass it on.

Well then, at what point in time do you trust a newbie to answer another newbie's simple spike question (remember, they are being supervised, technically, by the rest of us here)? One month, two months, three months, three years? We are talking simple Phal spike-type questions. I mean, we have people who have been growing orchids all of six months or a year who are considered 'trusted advisors' here by some.

So how does it break down for these newbies? Do we need a qualifying test before we 'let' them answer?

Lol! CAN we have a test? Please?
Kidding aside there's more than just the spike questions and newbies won't just stop at those. They get one answer right and fancy themselves somewhat experienced. Newbies to the forum wont know the expeirienced advise from the newbies advise so incorrect advise and correct advise become just more conflicting information on the web. I would personally have the newbies keep the advise giving to a minimum
until they have experienced for themselves some of the ins and outs for themselves, however long that takes. Long enough for them to not only be able to say what works for them and what doesn't but WHY it does or doesn't
work in their conditions. To do otherwise would sacrifice the quality of information on this board. I'm not hating on the newbies,and I hope no one construed my post as such. I love helping new people. But I do think we as the participants of this forum are responsible for the quality of content,even spike questions :)

While I agree that with you that: we as the participants of this forum are responsible for the quality of content,even spike questions, this certainly can't be accomplished by repressive policies -- which we don't have the authority to enforce anyhow. Telling newbies that they are welcome here but to keep their mouths shut is not exactly what this place is really all about.

We sometimes tend to forget that this is just an online community of people whose enjoyment is simply to grow orchids. It is supposed to be a happy place. But every now and then we get too serious about it and the joy gets stiffled. We don't need rules about who could or should post, any more than we would like coming home from a hard day at work and find the boss' equivalent of "Manual of Company Policies for New Employees" waiting for us at our orchid forum website.

We're all here because we love orchids, and it is from a concensus of knowledge and opinion that we continually increase what we know about our plants, and therefore also increase the enjoyment of our hobby. If someone posts erroneous information, no matter how long they have been growing orchids, it's for the rest of us to correct it. You can't single out just newbies as the principal offenders here.

Right on CJ!

When was I no longer a 'newbie' but was 'seasoned'?

When did I become the person whose advice was 'correct' or 'acceptable'?

Hmmm, it was probably those posts when the 'old timers' on the forum agreed that I was asking the right questions and giving the right advice. Meaning my advice was seconded and not corrected. How long did that take? I couldn't tell you, but I can tell you that I have seen a bunch of newbie phal owners excitedly jump in and ask the right questions and give the right answers to the newest newbies. The students become the teachers.

Ok, (and referring to a post on the Dark Side), so I *do* read most of the phal posts. G'head, give me a hard time. But you know what, I would jump in if I read really stupid advice. But I haven't seen that.

I hope this is my last post on this thread. This is why I wouldn't contribute to the mother of this thread. I come here to learn, to teach, and to enjoy. Well, enjoy mostly. Because when it ain't fun, I have too much else going on that is.

Carolyn

Whitecat: you can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think... :grinandwink:

snowpea - LOL!

Snowpea - good one! :)

For clarification, the draft of the welcome message doesn't have any suggestions about how long a person needs to have been growing before answering others' questions.

WC8

This will probably be my last post on the subject as well. As if the welcome message isn't uninviting enough...

We'll have to agree to disagree, to an extent, on this. I didn't advocate in the slightest a policy of newbies keeping their mouths shut, lets not put words in my mouth. I do encourage them to participate to any extent they can. I'd more ask for a period of simple self imposed observance of both the forum and their plants, as far as teaching goes. Encourage them to ask lots of questions, get to know people and even hijack every now and then. Thats great and wonderful and i'm all for it! But answer questions to which they are not necessarily qualified to answer (which is usually parroted generalities not tailored to the particular posters issue), supervised or not, I will cop to that kind of bothering me a little bit. Theres a difference between "old timers" hazarding a guess from experience and newbies hazarding a guess from general culture notes they read on a random website.

We will agree to disagree. But the key issue here is actually when posters with little or no knowledge about a particular subject answer questions (be them newbies or old-timers), trying to make it sound like they really KNOW the answer when they are really just guessing. I have at least twice during this past month admonished one or two of them (who are supposedly not newbies) to qualify their answers with words like "I think..., I believe..., Maybe ..., I've read ..." etc. so that the receiver of the information knows it is more or less a guess, of the educated type or not. We have that problem less from newbies than we do from members who have been around for a while. Ultimately, wrong advice from an old-timer can kill your plant just as easily as wrong advice from a newbie, and would probably not be as noticed nor corrected by the other members.

I'm pretty much finished with the thread, also. Got to go out and get the third heater down for the greenhouse; it's going to be 17F tonight here in N. Florida, and windy as all get go. Fortunately, we are still running a heckuva lot warmer than record lows.

Yes. What she (cjw) said.

There's hope, cj; Spring is coming...at least I think so, based on my vast past experience...

Sc

I also just want to call out a thanks to the hard work WC8 has put into this - I think sweetcicely put it really nicely.

Cj - that's a really good point. I really do try, but I sometimes forget to append "I think that..." or "From my limited experience..." to the beginnings of my post, which I think is important in ensuring that the reader knows that any advice being given is a guess or at least from limited experience. Even if it's neither these two things, anyone not growing in my conditions should take any information I give with a grain of salt, and so that little "I'm not sure, but this is what I think" really serves as a nice reminder to the reader. Sometimes I see it as a liability waiver!

Re the nature of people visiting the forum - with the invention of the internet, people tend to 'ask' more than research. It's gone from going to the library to checking out a book, to going to google and searching for a key word, to just posting questions on forums and waiting for answers. I think the welcome draft is fantastically detailed and has so much great advice and information, but as others have said, may not be efficient, keeping in mind the mentality of the people who come here asking for questions.

Is it possible to have a single line at the top of the page in a very prominent place saying:
"Thanks for visiting the forum! If you have some time before posting your question, please READ THIS"

and link to the page you've drafted?

That way people who do click on the link will expect to be presented with something they need to read - if they do read all of it, they'll be that much wiser and if they don't, then there's no hurt feelings since it's not the first thing that jumps into their face when they visit the site, so it's less....foreboding.