It has 3 spike shoots although 2 have stalled

You've answered your own question in a manner of speaking. Stall and kei keis indicate the plant is under-light and under-heated, smaller leaves are also a symptom on inadequate light and temps. Have you gotten the 42w cfl's out of the closet yet? :-)

Clara

I did neglect to finish this post. As I recall you are growing without natural light. The light quantities that we routinely speak about on the forum are supplimental lights that are used in tandem with natural light. It take 2-3 times the amount of artificial light when you are growing without natural light. Artificial light will also help increase the temps, something that is sorely needed at the moment. Did you get 6" of snow out you way?

Clara

If you have good roots and new leaves starting all the time, I personally wouldn't worry overmuch. Sometimes they just have to do their thing for a while. With good roots, I wouldn't worry about the spikes being a sign of anything negative, either.

You have it a few inches from a CFL-- I doubt it is not enough light. Perfection Is (a poster here named after the FCC phal) doesn't post here much any more, but he cautioned a couple of times about stress from growing phals only a few inches from fluorescents. Check the leaves over closely to see if you think this may be happening to yours.

As you said, your plant seems to be starting new leaves before the older ones mature.

I have a phal, Salu Spot, that behaved like this for a while this summer. I got it in bloom, and it stayed in bloom for months. After I cut off the spike, it put out two smallish leaves, one right after the other. I knew the roots were good, and the leaves were healthy looking, so decided not to worry. I don't think light had anything to do with it, either way, as it was outside with all the others.

Those small leaves on Salu Spot are lengthening right now, both of them. And I've decided Salu Spot is actually a phal with great vigour. I've no idea why it decided to grow two leaves at once and wait for later to lengthen them. Some of them seem to have their own reasons for things, and they aren't necessarily talking.

There's usually more than one possible reason for a condition, and you do have to trouble-shoot and make guesses about the causes for a while before you have confidence in the answer.

Too close to the lights is a possibility you can check out.

Please do let us know what you decide -- I'm curious about this.

I think I'm with mehitabel on this. A few inches away from a 42 watt CFL should be more than sufficient; I've fried some of mine on less. :)

I, too, have had a phal or two put out several leaves then wait a couple months before growing them all of the way out. It might just have gotten ahead of it's game and is waiting until it's got more energy (post bloom) to finish them off.

As for the stalled spikes, I had a NOID phal that I gave away that would send out, literally, five or six spikes and only actually bloom on two or three. If one of the two or three were damaged, it'd send out one of the others it started earlier in the season. That was just how that plant did it, I think, rather than a cultural problem.

Heat, though, might be a problem, as clara mentioned, but I'd think it'd get pretty toasty under those CFL's.

Just my opinion. :)

Stacy

I'll post another idea for you. How about you are growing them too close to the lights? Phal leaves will grow bigger, also slower, in under 1200 fc light. They grow bigger in less light to be able to utilize the lower fc. Many people showing phals in competition deliberately grow their plants in 1000 and less to create the bigger leaves.

It is not uncommon for plants to throw basal keikis, particularly if there is doritis in the pedigree. Also some phals are keiki machines and totally happy doing it. Phal. pulchra is an example. {{gwi:143422}}

Multiple spiking phals will have spikes stall and not bloom but still grow another spike. Here is a multi spiked plant - the one farthest left is from last March, the next spike over is blooming now and on the left side of the plant is the tiny new green spike.{{gwi:140752}} The oldest spike is not blooming but has a bud on it. I have no idea when it will bloom but it probably will.

I don't have a pic of my Doritis champ-somethingorother that is a great example of a blooming spike, a new spike forming, a basal keiki with a spike and another basal keiki growing. It is a totally happy plant.

Your leaves will also still grow as they age. If your temps are between 75 and 60, I would just enjoy the plant.

Brooke

T-bred can you state your growing conditons please. There seems to be some confusion.

Growing too close to cfls is not the issue. I have them close in. Tubes do not genrate sufficient heat or light for a phal unless your run time is quite large. Yolu will raise you rack at best 1 -2 degrees. The farther away from the light souce you are the mre the fc's drop. Even at close range they produce enough light to limp through the winter with a window but not without a window. Howard addressed this issue in one of his essays. I grow with an without a window. I can tell you from experience, 4 40w tubes will not make your phal happy

The issue is growing underlight which as I recall, you are. Last I hear the 42's were stashed in a closet. Tubes sans a window with our temps and light are causing the problems

Clara

I have grown it within inches of a 32w bank of lights and for about the past 2 months,have been growing it approx.6 inches under a 42w cfl.

Might want to read a little closer, clara.

I've had successful flowering and growing of phals a foot away from an undirected 42 watt CFL, just an FYI. Must have been a fluke.

Stacy

Hello everyone! I will try to address everyone questions in search of of a somewhat cohesive answer. :) Thank you all in advance!!

Clara: As stated in my original post, the plant has been within 6 inches of a 42w cfl for the past couple of months. The leaves have been a very turgid reddish-green even when growing it within inches of 32w florescents(the plant has yellow flowers) The mother plant is now growing it's 9th leaf and the large baby is now growing it's 5th. The basal keiki has an approx.8 inch leafspan. It is snowing as I type,the kids love it but I don't!!!! Why the heck did you ever leave Florida?

Mehitabel, I truly wonder about the light thing, too much? The more we know,the less we believe. I may take this to a tanning booth and see what happens!! This plant seems to be getting soooo much more light than a few months ago (it has always been under lights)Now I noticed a root coming from the same hole as one of the stalled spikes!!

Turkey and Brooke, you seem to agree with the adequate light theory, maybe I should raise the cfl for a while and see where that brings us? My growing area for that plant is right in the middle of my kitchen table. 42w's right above it, about 66 degrees at night and 75 degrees during day with light on. Humidity is -who knows it's 18 degrees outside right now brrr!!!! Probably 40% in the room.

Thanks everyone for insight,I won't sleep tonight trying to sort it out(but my phal will I'm sure) :)))

Brooke, forgot to thank you for the pictures, I love to see what others plants are doing. Helps me with the equation!

T-bred, when people start from different assumptions, they often won't reach the same conclusions.

Myself, I just don't believe the situation you describe requires a change in what you're doing. I wouldn't worry for one second over a plant like the one you have described. It sounds like good growing to me.

Sometimes you can only learn what's going on by watching things develop over time.

Your plant sounds healthy, all those leaves and a big keiki, new root forming thru the same hole as the spike-- common as dirt, no problem. New leaves forming, that's good.

A spike that sits for a while before starting to move, not necessarily a problem.

A new leaf starting while the previous leaf is still small, not necessarily a problem when the plant is visibly healthy. It just happens sometimes.

Keikis aren't automatically a bad thing. Some "basal" keikis actually form off the bottom node of an old spike that wasn't cut all the way down. I've seen cultural awards (CCM's) go to phals with keikis, and I doubt they would give good culture awards if a keiki automatically means a plant is or was recently in trouble.

Adding it all up, I "see" a healthy plant that you need to be enjoying and maybe even feeling a little smug about.

So, my vote is for you enjoying your plant and getting lots of good sleep as well. :)

I honestly don't know if the light is too much. It *can* be. You have to be the judge of that, based on your knowledge of the plant and of your conditions. But I definitely don't believe your plant is suffering because the light is too low. I don't think it's suffering at all.

Please do let us know how it turns out.

Whats your temps like? What are you feeding it? There are so many variables no one can give you an answer. Phals make vegetative growth with heat and high light. Too much nitrogen could cause green growth over flowers. I've never seen too much light cause small leaves.

My phals summer outdoors and I push light. I work them up to almost Catt light. Their leaves are enormous. Even the smaller hybrids will always grow larger leaves. If any plant of mine, no matter what type throws smaller leaves than previous, I know something is off.
Also, cool temps over a long period will slow growth or stall it. If your room temperature is too cool, the plant will sit. Too cool, you'll develop problems.

What are your growing temperatures and are you feeding the plant?

Jane

Haven't you guys figured out that Clara is a mole for the Fluorescent bulb industry? Is it a coincidence that she arrived round about the same time that there was this push in the media for everyone to replace all their household bulbs with CFLs? I think not...

The thing is, many big leaved vandaceous plants will grow leaves according to the available light conditions. If the plant needs X amount of light and it can get it with one small leaf, it may. If it is in deep shade it may produce many larger, longer, wider leaves to act as photon nets to catch those stray light rays.

I would recommend everyone do the following experiment. Obtain three Aerangis bilobae. Grow one in medium bright light. One in bright shade. And the third in deep shade. You will find that the brighter it is, the fewer and smaller the leaves. In deep shade, the leaves elongate and there are more of them. Some Aerangis and Aeranthes species grow in such deep shade that it does not register on a light meter.

Another thing is, with Phals, it seems to me that a lot depends on how you want the plant to be shaped. If you want the plant to stay mostly upright, it will be that way longer in higher light. But if you'd rather it look more naturalistic with the leaves draped over the side of the pot (which they seem to do no matter what within a few years), then I'd say to grow it in shade. I believe temp has more to do with spikes than light, at least when it comes to NOID phalz. IMO, YRMV, TTYL, lol
-MB

Lol MB :) And to think that I fell for Clara's sell and have CFLs out the wazoo!

t-bred here is a picture of the plant from last April when my husband brought it home to me. He knew I would love the oddity of it. {{gwi:143420}} I ordered the tree fern totem and mounted it. It is a definite conversation piece and may be the keiki machine of record.

Here is a pic of one of the baby keikis blooming where the flower is bigger than the leaf. {{gwi:143421}} The keiki now has one leaf about 1", teeninsy second leaf and four roots now over an inch long.

MrB I love your sense of humor!

Brooke

Brooke, love the pictures of your phals
Is this phal pulchra? How does it do for you on treefern?
What a sweet husband

Olya

MB Howard is the CEO and I am just the sales rep :-) Could be worse!
The plant needs 20,000 fc's a day to grow and thrive. Its simple math. The average t-8 is 40w. If you are growing under a bank of 4,40 w bulbs say at 4-6 inches from the bulb, the plant is receiveing ~ 500 or less fc's. 32w less. If your run time is 14 hours you will fall short 7,000 fc's will be delivered to the plant. Running the plant at 1500 fc's (phal light) will give you 20,000 fc at 14 hrs.

A single 42 w bulb 6" from the plant is equivalent to 1 t-8 bulb. Not 1 set. Bring the bulb in. It will assist in additional heat.

If there is plant producing smaller leaves, kei keis and is spike stalled it is a lack of light and heat

Clara

Hmmm, Mr B, fascinating as always. What you say about the Aerangis is also true of many other plants, including dirt plants and tropicals. Gee, do you think that means orchids are plants? I wonder. :P

Along the lines of your point, Mr B, the people at Marble Branch Farms say they grow their phals under extra shade for a couple of months in high summer *so* the leaves will get bigger and the plant will be able to absorb more of the limited light in summer.

highjack, that P pulchra is a charmer all right. I think it's sticking it's tongue out at me. P lueddemanniana (now pulchra) and doritis are both said to be keiki monsters. One of the phals offered by Baldan's (I think it's Baldan's) is actually *named* 'keiki monster'.

Eagerly awaiting Frowine's new book out on phals, out in August of 08.

You're not using bloom booster fertilizer all the time, are you?

Went out to the 12' of light shelf I have in the GH (at night, so there was no competing outside light, and according to my light meter, at 2" below this bunch of standard 2-tube 40W shoplights, I registered substantially more than 5,000fc (that's as high as my meter goes). And I know for a fact that this is an accurate reading, because I've grown and bloomed lots of high-light orchids, like mini-catts and Sophronitis, at just an inch or three below. So the light level is quite intense close to the bulbs. What Phals I grow under these lights are at least 6-8" below the tubes. The rest of my Phals on benches in the greenhouse get about 2500fc for two or three hours a day and then dip to barely 1000fc for the rest of the time.

My experience and observations solely; your mileage may vary.

Olya - yes, sweet husband indeed.

It is a pulchra but came with a tag of luddemaniana. It has been ID'd by people smarter than me as the pulchra. I guess they used to recognize this plant as pulchra var. ludde but the taxonimists got busy so I could be confused some more.

It LOVES the tree fern mount! And much easier to deal with than a top heavy plant that would tip over if you looked at it wrong.

MrB just cannot help himself with his Ang craze - now he wants all of us to get not one, not two but three Aerangis bilboe. If Clara is the CFL mole, what does this say about him?

Brooke

I've actually kind of tried Mr. B's experiment with Phals and got similar results.

About three years ago, a member of my orchid society had an extra flask (she already had 10 of this cross) and gave it to me. Once the plants were out of compots, they were mixed in with the rest of my collection, wherever there was room. The ones with the mini Catts have small, very firm and slightly red leaves, and bloom like crazy. The ones with the other Phals have medium leaves, bloom twice a year in March and September, usually around the 5th (these guys are more regular than any clock I've ever owned). The ones regularly with the jewel orchids have large, dark green glossy leaves and bloom once a year if left there.

Just some trivia to throw out there.

Julie

That's very interesting, Julie. Blooming *and* leaves affected.

BTW, everyone, typo alert: last phrase in paragraph 2. I meant to say "limited light in winter".

Thanks everyone for helping!

So many different opinions,but I really like jamcm's observations-before Julie posted,I was even thinking of running an experiment like this myself.

Maybe as Mehitabel said,my plant is doing just fine and I shouldn't worry so much.

Someday I will try to post a picture(I am still a 35mm fanatic)I'm sure if all four spikes ever bloom it will be a sight to see. :))

A lot of information was presented in the original post and it covered a fairly long period of time. Within that time the phal has been underlit. This fact should not need to be argued. The smaller leaves, the kei-kei, the stalled spikes bespeak a past, chronic, underlighted situation and I don't think it unreasonable for anyone to come to that conclusion based on what was presented. Changes were made which corrected the light in a positive way but to imagine that they went so far in direction so as to introduce stunting or some other artifacts of excessive light is simply unsupportable. IMO the switch to the CFL and the current placement under it should certainly work out in the long term but it is too early to see definitive physical changes. So, in that vein the very last post above is all the more compelling. The amount of back and forth it took to reach that point of equilibrium, however is dissapointing.

H

Going slightly off-topic, I might have missed a week or so here, but since when has 'keiki' started to be spelled kei kei or kei-kei as two words? This is a very common orchid term. For those who never heard it spoken, the pronounciation is kaykey, not kay-kay or key-key.

Wikipedia.org has a nice write up on it, but you will have to spell it 'keiki' to find the entry.
:-)

Cj, I apologize for not responding to your fertilizer question, I use 15- 5- 5 fertilizer and probably not often enough,maybe once every 5 waterings.

Howard, I guess I did leave a few things out of my original post. This phal is one of 9 that had been under the 32w tubes. The other 8 are doing very well and are all currently in spike. This was the only one I moved under the 42w bulb.It very well may be my misconception,but I thought 9 leaves is a positive thing. The leafspan of the mother plant is 19 inches at the oldest set of leaves and 11 inches at the topmost set.I am trying to be proactive and head-off a decline,if that is what I am witnessing.I am happy to hear the 42w should do the job.

Regarging the keiki,I recall someone saying that a phal will often put out a basal growth when a phal has enough top growth to support it. Does anyone else remember this?

Perhaps I should not comment on this at all as I do not grow under lights. I grow in a greenhouse. Midsummer or so I slowly moved some of my hybrid phals to much higher light than they had been receiving. These plants now have smaller, thicker, light medium green leaves (some with red tint) compaired to when grown in lower light (under bench). But, the vigor of the plants has increased as in: they now grow roots, leaves, spikes and support blooms at the same time. I've had to just cut spikes down for fear of them blooming themselves to death..;0) Before (under bench)they kinda did one thing at a time. I've noticed with tropicals planted in my yard this same thing. Plants in very bright shade have somewhat smaller leaves and brighter green color than the same kind of plant grown in deep shade. With the higher light the plant has not so much need to put so much energy into making huge leaves to collect the suns rays, but instead puts that energy into passing on it's genes. Just my experience and thoughts.
Good Luck T-bred!!
Pat.....

t-bred, I don't know if this will help in your situation, but I have a old Phal 10+yrs which got a bad infestation of mites 2 yrs ago. By the time I realized it and treated the plant had declined. I babied it (this plant holds very sentimental memories for me), and it spiked and flowered that winter. This was a mistake because it declined further. It lost all but two leaves and last winter I kept it well lit and warmer than normal and it seemed to come around(I thought). It produced a leaf which was very small. But began making tons of roots so I was hopeful. It then produced a basal keiki which has grown quite large. The main plant still has two large leaves and the small one, and keeps making roots, but has not produced a new leaf this year. The keiki is growing its own roots along with the main plant. I'll leave it like this until spring and then make a decision about separating them. If I can find a photo, I will post it.

My observation - basal keikis are produced when a plant is in serious trouble. I've had Phals make keikis off spikes without showing any signs of trouble, but this is the first time I've had a plant make a basal and this plant is probably finished. I hope I can save it, but maybe its 'old-age.' At least I have the baby.

Jane

Thanks cj, I could spell keiki but now I can pronounce it correctly - you can learn something new every day if you are willing.

You cannot put phals into one box. You can take ten different phals, grow them side by side, in the same light, in the same media and have ten different growth patterns. You will get ten different leaf shapes. Ten different leaf colors from light green, dark green, purplish green, silver green, speckled, some shiny, some matt. Some of those plants will spike once a year, some twice, some will branch, some will keiki, ad infinitum. They are all different genetically.

If t-bred's phal has nine leaves with a leaf span of 19" and the keiki has five leaves with a leaf span of 8", this is not an unhappy plant. He grew most of these leaves under regular flourescent lights. Two months ago he moved the plant under a CFL 6" from the light but now has smaller leaves. Maybe he should move the plant back to the flourescents with lower light levels to see if he can get larger leaves. He could up the temps to 85 during the grow hours and down to 65 at night but he might not wish to pay for the increased heat or be willing to live in those temps. His current temp range is fine but growth will be slower.

You can grow and bloom many plants, orchids and "dirt" plants, under flourescents, in a basement, with no supplemental outside light. People have done it for years, before they invented HID lights or CFL lights. Everyone growing orchids under lights should thank the guys growing their cash crop away from prying eyes for inventing better and easier growing habitats.

Brooke

That brings to mind to ask t-bred: which Phal hybrid is this?

Brooke, hadn't really thought about the 'cash crop' guys leading the way, lol.

Clara,

You wrote in this thread, "The plant needs 20,000 fc's a day to grow and thrive."

Will you please provide references for me to read to learn more?

Thanks,

--Stitz--

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Clara meant 20,000fc throughout the course of the day, ie 1500 for around 13 hours? (definitely not 20,000 all at once!! o_O)

Yes, cj, indoor flower growers owe a debt of gratitude to the cash crop farmers - they are always on the cutting edge of lights.

Brooke

I wanted to bump this back up, one of the three spikes is turning out to be another basal keiki!!! And one leaf up opposite that, a new something is starting at the leaf axil. So now I have mother plant with 2 basal keikis(one with a 3 inch spike), 2 stalled spikes and one something new.I am going to continue growing this under the 42w cfl and see where that brings me. I am sooo excited, I think this could turn out to be a SUPER PHAL!!!! Have you hugged your 'chids today?

Hey, t-bred. Congrats on your super-phal. All that activity and vigor -- make sure it doesn't follow you out of the room :)

Like CJ I'd like to know it's name, too. Some species of phal do keiki like mad.

But it's funny you bumped this thread today. I was going to look for it to bump, too.

My P Salu Spot that I mentioned earlier on this thread that put out two small leaves in a few weeks last summer after a long bloom that only now were starting to lengthen

and that nevertheless was healthy, with good roots, and quite a vigorous plant all around

has a spike several inches long on it. Just saw it last night.

So if yours is Super-Phal, I think I'll call my Salu Spot "Satisfactory Phal" -- not Super, but very good indeed :)

Mehitabel, I lost the tag(I am so bad) but I remember it was "Amadeus" I could only find it listed in the U.K It was grown by Masterpiece growers in Michigan. This is a lovely plant!! I wish more posts were followed up on, it may teach us all something!! :)

Phal Amadeus (Phal Joseph Hampton x Phal Frank Gottburg)

CJ, thanks!! I will research this and find what background I can. I am very interested if this can be "bred in".

If it helps, the hybrid genetics show:

Phal amabilis 46%
Phal rimestadiana 40%
Phal aphrodite 14%

I assume it's white if we have the right hybrid.

Actually CJ, it is a very pale yellow, so where might that lead me?

Maybe it's Amadeus x a yellow? Yellow x a big white (Amadeus) often = Pale yellow.

That's according to Howard Ginsburg's articles on breeding lines in phals.

See url below, then scroll down to VII B and VIII A & B on breeding of yellow phals.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bedford Orchids

How exciting t-bred - good growing. I hope Santa brings you a digital camera for Christmas so you can share pics of this jewel.

OHMYGOSH cj, I've never heard of or seen the species phal rimestadiana before. I must research that one today.

Mehitabel I really think you were meant to be an orchid breeder. If I were a generation younger I would be dabbing pollen to orchids but at my age, I will just enjoy the blooms other people create.

Brooke

Phal rimestadiana is now mostly considered to be a form of amabilis, but was used for years as a species in its own right.