Melissa--I concur wholeheartedly! I have tried many different plants in my yard and keep the ones that flourish and give up on the ones that do not. I do not like to waste my time. The garden always looks more lush and full with plants that like their habitat. Nothing like a scrawny looking deciduous azalea or puny Chinese Tree Peony that has not changed for 4 years. Often too much time is spent trying to grow a plant ill suited for the garden, while less time is spent enjoying what works. I am all for less work and more enjoyment.

I have heavy clay soil and some plants simply do not survive with wet feet. Luckily for me, roses love it. I think that when the plants in a garden like their environment, a certain balance is achieved and everything works together to form a more aesthetically pleasing whole--both to the eye and the spirit.

I couldn't have put it better myself. If something does well on it's own I keep repeating it throughout the garden. I'm tired of having to baby things so a plant has to be really special for me to spend time pampering it. Even my beloved roses don't get much pampering. I'd rather spend that time just enjoying the garden. What's the point if you can't take time to just sit back and enjoy it?

Melissa - I want to agree with you because in this world of shrinking resources and global warming, we need to be realistic about our gardens to conserve resources. That being said, I'm a newbie gardener (started last year with perennials, a few shrubs and annuals) and I'm still at the beginning of finding out what does well or not in my garden. I have clay soil, but have already amended it with compost and plan to continue to to that religiously every year. Last year I realized that the annual impatiens simply require more watering than I am willing/able to do to look good, so I will not plant them again. I just ordered 10 roses, and did a lot of research before I chose them because I intend to only use organic methods to combat disease and insects. Check out my clippings - I'm obsessed!
Anyway, I found what you said thoughtful and enjoyed reading it, so thanks for sharing. Who knows how your taking the time to put your thoughts into words will help/affect others.
Also, my son and I spent 20 days on a tour of Italy/Sicily in July of 2006. It was my third visit to Italy (the other two visits were much shorter) and I do envy you your climate and beauty of the Italian people, art, fashion,wine and food! Leslie

What a wonderful post!

The zone envy is true. Maryland is so capricious one can get confused as to what can and can't be grown here. That's why at our nursery we often tell customers to NOT rely on rosemary, it can, depending where you are in our area, die back. "Arp" is a solid cultivar to depend on, but others will most likely die if the winter is too cold. I was actually scolded by a customer when I said it wasn't 100% guaranteed to be a long term shrub. The same goes for camellias, a landscaper friend of ours said not to bother with them, and yet, just like customers looking for their rosemary, I still wanted a camellia, and so I got an Ackerman cold hardy variety. It's still alive, and I'm happy. Will I go out and try a regular camellia?

But I have to agree with the monotonous and generic way we've become in general landscape gardening. I work in the annual department at a nursery and can attest that EVERYONE wants the wave petunias, geraniums, etc. It gets rather boring. When I planned to dig a new bed for roses and other plants, I wanted it to be cottage looking, but since I wanted a balance between regular cultivated plants and natives I integrated Queen-of-the-Prairie, milkweed, wintergreen and scarlet mallow into the bed, as well as blueberry bushes.

The perennial department at work gave me a lot of end of the season throwouts, so I planted those, and I'll be seeing what does well, and what doesn't perform will just get moved or thrown out. It's no use looking at a plant that is visibly languishing.

I must, must, must advocate the usage of native sunflowers in the east. They are WONDERFUL in the late summer, and spread very quickly, I want to buy more! Also, members of the cup-plant family are very statuesque. They do great and hold up in the humidity! I'm going to buy more natives this summer, they're fascinating!

Max

Do most experienced gardeners fall into the category of the duped though? We have many small nurseries here in the US that offer an amazing selection of roses, natives, and plants that perform well locally. Perhaps trying and failing with plants that won't do well in a particular garden is the gorge that separates the neophyte from the experienced gardener, and discourages many a gardener-to-be.

I am lucky enough to have 3 good resources. One is a big parcel of my own land (54 acres) that has many wildflowers. The other two are the NC Botanical Garden and a wonderful nursery, both of which have beautiful display gardens filled with native and exotic plants that perform well locally. All three of those resources have been a great inspiration and the source of most of my plants.

When we first moved to our farm, gardening was an exercise in failure. The contractor stripped off the sandy loam topsoil in the yard, leaving us with clay subsoil in a 60-70' radius around the house. I lost so many plants the first couple of years that I think I was forever cured of wanting things that I could not grow, lol. Most of what performed well were wetland natives, because they could handle the low oxygen content of the subsoil I was dealing with. Even after I brought the horses home and was able to quickly and substantially improve the soil, I still always try to site plants with their needs in mind. Otherwise, they'll just repay me by keeling over.

Anyway, my suggested solution to all these problems is to grow the plants that grow in the conditions available,

*** PRECISELY!
If you grow the plants that are well-suited to your local conditions, you will be successful.

Jeri

Nyet, don't agree but so what it's my garden and zone envy ends with retirement ... I blend those that survive and have acceptable performance with the extreme crank factor of growing challenge roses to achieve compounded satisfaction from the gardens.

On the other side of reason, there's something to be said for a plant that needs a bit of care to thrive - or might die out or be severely injured in the odd, extremely cold winter every 15 or 20 years. That plant is less likely to become invasive than one perfectly suited to the local conditions. In a way, it all depends on what kind of mark you want to leave on the planet, and in what way you want to go about leaving it - because tangible or not, it's there. I think it's all an act of picking poisons, or desserts, if you like your glass half full :)

By the way, Max - there are indeed some hardier sorts of "normal" camellias you might want to try, after you've had your fill of the hybrids (of which there are some real beauties). You might enjoy a trip down to the Nat'l Arboretum one day to check out the camellia collection, which has been steadily growing back (albeit more smartly) since the extreme cold of the 1970s that knocked out most of the tender varieties and precipitated Dr. Ackerman's breeding work. The collection was once a sight to behold, I've heard, until those brutal winters arrived. Some camellia species and even hybrids are actually rather weedy here, seeding themselves around with abandon.

I'm happy to say that our local nurseries here have become much more sophisticated in that they offer plants, and not only the most common ones, that are adapted to our dry climate. There are lots of shrubs and perennials to choose from and it's possible for any garden to have an individual look. I avoid annuals and the plants that one sees everywhere, such as fortnight lilies, agapanthus and oleander, so that my garden will be memorable and different (or so I hope!). Most importantly, it has to satisfy my aesthetic sensibilities and make me very happy.

Ingrid

I'm always amazed at the sheer number of plants that our nurseries around here offer that are not hardy to a Canadian winter. Why keep selling plants that won't make it through the winter. Trying to sucker the poor customer who doesn't know better and who will never get their refund in the Spring?

I must admit to a bit of zone pushing, mainly for some roses, and I enjoy it. I'd love to grow Celine Forrestier even if she needs pampering to get through the winter, I think she's just gorgeous :) Plus, I think that roses are hardier than we first think - they're fighters sometimes!

I have given up on the new echinaceas though, "Harvest Moon", "Sunrise", "Sunset", "Meadowbrite" . . . they don't seem hardy enough to last a winter and they cost $20-$25 each Spring -- such a waste of money for a plant that will die over the winter. But every Spring, they sell by the truckload.

I agree with everything you said, but in my own garden, I can't quite bring myself to accept that philosophy yet. I don't want my space to look the same as everyone elses . . . that's why I trade seeds and plants with other gardeners instead of relying on the local nurseries. I don't plant impatients :) Anywhere. Ever. I know they have their uses, but I do like being somewhat unique. I think I may be the only person in our town who grows Antique Roses, instead of the knockouts (or the peace HT roses, or equivalents) . . . but there are some battles that I'm not quite ready to give up on yet :)

When I was a younger gardener I tried to push the limits especially since I moved from a milder climate to a harsher one and wanted to grow my old favorites. It's been many years since I've had any interest in trying to plant anything that doesn't do well here. There are plent of wonderful plants that do.

I'm glad to hear all these responses: they're interesting!

Riku, notice I left a loophole for gardeners who are crazy about a given plant and grow it against the odds. If you want to grow tender roses in your zone, if people want to have palm trees in Ontario and make the passers-by gasp, that's fine with me. My quarrel is with the resources that go into growing grass where grass isn't meant to grow, and other vain and costly battles for banal plants. Magnificent obsessions have my hearty approval.

Stefan, everyone is going to have a year--exceptionally cold, exceptionally hot, exceptionally dry--where even well-adapted plants will suffer and perhaps die. If gardeners didn't accept that, there would be no gardens. My suggestion is to avoid the plants that get killed or badly damaged in an average season.

Alicia, of course you're absolutely right. Every gardener goes through a long period (it was long in my case) of finding out what works in her or his own piece of ground, and the learning never stops. For me, one of the huge fascinations of gardening is that NO ONE can tell me exactly what will do well in my garden, because my garden is unique on the face of the earth, for the soils, the shade, the leaf fall and available amendments, the currents of air, the patterns of rainfall and the available underground water. The better I understand that and work with, rather than against it, as well as expressing my personal idea of what is beautiful, the more individual character my garden will have.

Melissa

Melissa, I agree totally. I think, moreover, people do what they see others do..whether it is right or wrong. For example, it's a common practice here to take a chain saw in the winter and cut off the tops of graceful crepe myrtles to stubs. It's also almost dogma to plant Bradford pears in EVERY new subdivision.

I grow those plants that want to be in my yard and show it to me by growing enthusiastically. When visitors come by they're puzzled why things grow well.

Robert

"...vain and costly battles for banal plants."

That has to be the quote of the day :)

I agree wholeheartedly!

... let me see in my previous discertation on the out of zone rose growing I believe I stated my position on my ventures as

"By all appearances of my pre-amble it would seem that I was going to tell you how I cheat nature to grow these roses. Well this thought path is the first correction I suggest to make you never can cheat nature. However you can bend natures desire to correct an imbalance in your zone with this misplaced type of rose by using zone stretching practices that have been developed and passed on by generations of prairie rose growers since the 1920Âs. These pioneers succeeded by experimentation in growing out of zone roses, as well as hybridizing roses suited to our climate  i.e. termed "hardy roses" as the needed no protection to survive winter to re-bloom."

For me, one of the huge fascinations of gardening is that NO ONE can tell me exactly what will do well in my garden, because my garden is unique on the face of the earth, for the soils, the shade, the leaf fall and available amendments, the currents of air, the patterns of rainfall and the available underground water.

This statement I agree with. Please show me a gardener that doesn't love to experiment with plants, try new varieties and push the limits! I'm not talking solely about people who grow roses. I'm talking about people who have an interest in all kinds of plants, shrubs and trees.

If I didn't "try" new things, going against the conventional wisdom of what works in my zone, I would not have gingers, angel trumpets, delphiniums, and geraniums growing beautifully in my garden. I would probably only have Knockout roses as well. Oh, and I don't give up if one plant dies, I try another in a different spot or try another variety of the same plant :-) So, when I hear you can't grow that here, that doesn't do well here, etc. I do not trust the information until I try it in my particular garden and kill it more than once. I can't give advice to someone across town much less someone across the state about plants. I can only say what happens in my garden

Gardens are a very personal thing. Of course, I think we all mostly grow the plants that are adapted to our area, and that require less care. But if you want to knock yourself out tending to a plant that is not suited to your area but that makes your heart sing, I say go for it. What is "banal" to me, might be beautiful and worthy to you. There are many plants to choose from, you are correct, and a true gardener will eventually have found out by trial and error what works in their garden, but there will always be people who just walk into a garden center and buy what is pretty and what is available. When it dies they will think they did something wrong and not realize the plant wasn't suited to their garden or their area. I guess the solution would be to have knowledgeable employees working in the garden centers and stock only the plants that are bullet proof in the area. That doesn't happen in my area :-)You have to have the interest and the motivation to research information about plants on your own.

Carol

Carol, that is a wonderful post. The following is a quote from Elizabeth Lawrence's A Southern Garden, written when she was gardening about 30 miles from my farm: "...the failure of a plant in my garden does not mean that this plant will languish in all gardens in these parts. In fact I have only to say that a plant will not grow in the Middle South, to have a dozen people come to prove that it will -- for them. When it became obvious that delphiniums do not grow as bigorously in North Carolina as in Maine, Mr. Jacques Busbee (that excellent gardener and perverse citizen) took delight in confounding his neighbors with the height and fullness of his blue spires. They did not know that he bought new plants of Dreer each and every spring and set them out in the dead of night. Of course only Mr. Busbee's special magic could have raised them to any height even then."

That quote contains all that everyone here has expressed -- the futility of growing plants that won't do well in one's zone and the irrepressible hope that some beloved plant will. EL was always pushing the envelope and through reading her works and looking at what does well locally, I have been able to avoid a lot of wasted time and money. The quote also contains the sentiment about the unique qualities of each individual garden that Melissa expressed so wonderfully.

I am also in the category of being too new to know what will grow well. We have a fairly new house here too, and you know how they say to wait a year before planting... well, in some cases I jumped the gun. I put DiCentra in a spot that was very shady in early Spring. It ended up being just about full sun from May-July. Live and learn.

I don't want to beat my head against the wall. I put azaleas, which do great up east, in my alkaline soil this Spring, not realizing they like acidic soil. I think they are not long for this world. If you don't have anyone to ask, you do end up wasting a boatload of money figuring out what will grow in your garden.

Every plant (other than man made hybrids) is a native somewhere, meaning it grows without the help of man. Nobody waters it, fertilizes it, prunes it, etc. However, sure is fun trying to coax it to grow otherwise.

stefan, I had no idea the collection in DC was still so extensive. I was under the assumption that they only had oleifera and it's hybrids left. I'm going down with some friends to see The National Gallery next week, I'll see if we have time to stop by Arboretum as well, I imagine some are in bloom, wouldn't you think?

Max

Melissa, I've been thinking about what you posted since yesterday. In fact, you often post things that get me thinking.

This time I find that I do agree, but only in part. I think some restraints are necessary or otherwise the garden is a wild mishmash with no cohesion or organizing principle. And yes it is absolutely necessary to accept some constraints. A sensible gardener will not try to grow alpines in a swamp just for the novelty of it. But if he is obliged by fate to live in a swamp and if he loves alpines with all his heart, must he give up the attempt altogether? Might he not sensibly grow swamp plants through most of his garden, but reserve a small area, a bit of higher ground that he carefully prepares, and try just a few of his favorites there? They may take as much work as the rest of his garden, and they may not thrive for him as they would for a mountain gardener, but if he can get them to grow at all they will bring him a great deal of pleasure.

Rosefolly

The learning usually starts with whatever calls out to you (banal, ubiquitous plants) in ordinary garden centers, then you graduate to the obscure and the hunt is on!

Your (and everyone else's) garden is unique because of YOU and your relationship with the garden. If you sold your house to me, I may or may not be able to keep thriving the same plants you were successful with. It's the difference between say collecting silver, pearls or ? and plants - I have a relationship with my plants, they need me and I need them, just like my dogs.

I agree in landscaping there is too much repetition, but my garden is my own and I couldn't care less whether it resembles someone elses, it's my experience/experiment and not for others' amusement.

I get what you mean by the net total of (ignorant) people continuing to plant Victorian era swaths of turf, acid loving shrubs in alkaline soil, etc. It's one thing when you KNOW you're pushing the envelope and another when you are wasteful just because you never considered other options.

BTW, from what you grow I don't see any reason why you can't grow blueberries - I do in Southern California - some do better than others; all are southern highbush in 15 gal tubs or half whisky barrels. You may have to address alkaline water as well (add battery acid, Google that before you try it for proper instructions!) I highly recommend Sunshine Blue but then you may have the chill for northern and rabbit-eyes even.

Max, I dare say the collection is nowhere near what it used to be - but I think you'll find it pretty enjoyable. We still have a lot of gaps to fill in the coming years, especially where species are concerned, but I think you'd enjoy seeing it (we do have oleifera and its hybrids, but also sasanquas, sinensis, and hardier selections of japonica). Unfortunately, the predicted temperatures over the weekend (upper teens and low 20s) will probably reduce the open flowers to mush, so you might not have a lot to see next week. If you do stop by and I happen to be working out there, I'd be happy to show you around - I work near the camellia collection in the section dedicated to Chinese plants. There are some Asian roses, too (I'm working to build a respectable representation, and it's about 1/3 of the way there so far, lol).

Max,
If I may put in a word for growing rosemary in zone 6b...I have done it for many years, ever since a beloved nurserywoman friend showed me how she got hers to overwinter in Northeast Oklahoma. No fancy stuff, just English garden-type microclimate creation by use of a brick wall or hedging. Yes, some years I lose them to an extra hard freeze, but how is this any different from any perennial woody herb (thyme, sage, etc.) that has to be replaced every few years due to loss of vigor? It's a valuable enough part of the culinary garden that even if you grow it as an annual in a sunny zone 6b, it will put on enough growth in one season to justify its presence. But when you can manage to bring them through (without protection, mind you) 4 or 5 years in a row - WOW. People can't believe it's rosemary around here.

Also - on the topic of special obsessions...a gardening phenomenon that has always captivated me is the (not so?) small group of Italian Americans (and others) who have stubbornly held onto the tradition of fig growing in places far north of where they ever ought to think of doing it, if they followed conventional wisdom. I myself have tried this and failed many times over the past decade, but am I going to give up this year? I decided long ago that I can't build a small castle, so this will just have to be my folly. I told my daughter, if it takes me till I'm 80 years old to get that first fig I'll be ready for it.

As jbcarr said, "every plant is native somewhere," but as I always tell my Dad in our regular skirmishes over what is appropriate to try to grow, very few plants grown for ornamental or culinary use are native HERE.

All this may make it appear that I disagree with what Melissa wrote...In reality, I agree wholeheartedly with the general gist. I'll give almost anything a try, but if a rose dies once in my garden (unless through my obvious fault), I will very rarely replace it. Large perennials take up too much space to be in that "experimental" category for very long. If they don't thrive, the garden looks ugly

I am really enjoying this discussion!

Rosefolly, again, passion. Yes, if you really long for alpines, I certainly wouldn't tell you not to grow them. Gardening is about passion, after all! It's always up to the individual gardener to decide how much he/she wants to invest in growing a given plant, and what degree of success will be satisfactory. My own tendency, which is partly philosophical and partly temperamental, is to try to adapt myself to my conditions. I'll dig and mulch and weed and water at the start, and I site plants with great care, but I won't go much further, with irrigation systems or winter protection, for example. My garden philosophy isn't everybody's, though, and there's no reason it should be. Part of my joy is meeting the challenge of adaptation; another gardener's might be the challenge of impossible conditions.

I heartily agree that the garden will be a mishmash if there are no restraints. This thread is, after all, titled 'The Value of Limits'. Ornamental gardening has an aesthetic component, to utter a tautology. Regardless of what the gardener grows, to make a beautiful garden she/he has to consider plant textures and architecture, bulks and empty spaces, colors, light and shade. I tend to think that respecting the environmental limitations of a site will tend to produce a more stylistically coherent garden. The assemblage of plants will seem more 'natural' because they're plants whose relatives would be found growing together in nature. When I started this thread I didn't link the title well with the content. What I was trying to say was that by respecting the basic ecological character of a garden site and trying to work with it, the resulting garden would be more individualistic, and at the same time more coherent, than if it were subjected purely to the workings of the author's own imagination and desires. Nature as collaborator, not as enemy!

"I agree in landscaping there is too much repetition, but my garden is my own and I couldn't care less whether it resembles someone elses, it's my experience/experiment and not for others' amusement."--greenwitch
YES!!!
I suspect this is the only way to have an original garden--to not care whether it's like or unlike anyone else's. I totally agree. I also don't care whether a plant is rare or common (though I can get sick of a plant I see grossly overused), just whether it works in my garden and is beautiful. And I don't care about what's fashionable in gardening. Ha. The only value to fashion, that I've ever seen, is that it brings plants into the nurseries that weren't there before, that might be useful. Gray-leaved aromatic plants are ever welcome in my garden, and ornamental grasses not, no matter what the dernier cri may be. Well, okay, fashion offers new suggestions of beauty, to add to my mental catalog, and perhaps I'll profit from the suggestions one day. Anyway, greenwitch, I think what you say is exactly right and very important.

I do have two blueberries in an old bathtub. I know I can grow anything is a container, but plants in containers are too vulnerable for me to be comfortable with the situation, except for my succulents.

By the way, on the subject of 'banal' (my word) plants--no plant is banal if the gardener is in love with it.

robiniaquest: I have an Italian friend whose hobby is old fruit trees, and who loves figs. He says that figs are hardier than they're often given credit for in the U.S., but that gardeners in the States make the mistake of generously fertilizing and watering their figs and so the trees make a lot of succulent growth and then freeze in the winter.

As you say, anyone who wants to grow plants that are a little tender for their zone, or in need of some extra warmth, needs to know how to take advantage of a wall. Even here my rosemary likes to have a wall to lean against or a masonry pillar to wrap itself around, and I overwinter my potted succulents in a cool greenhouse rigged up against the southfacing wall of our house. My neighbors have a rosemary planted against the west-facing masonry wall of an outbuilding (in this orientation it's also sheltered from the cold winds, which come from the east), and it must be the biggest plant of rosemary I've ever seen. A protective wall and decent drainage would probably help your fig project, too: how is your tree placed?

Melissa

Re: banal plants. Around here a very banal plant is Ligustrum japonicum, privit it is commonly called--used everywhere around here for hedges. Sold by the dozens every day at every big box store within 100 miles. Banality in a 5 gallon nursery pot.

I recently passed a house in the neighborhood and did a doubletake. Where an elderly (probably 40+ years old) and overgrown privit hedge had once been, was now (what I thought) a collection of extraordinary wind-swept, sculptural specimen trees--for a moment I thought it was a newly installed and expensive collection of boxed Japanese Maples, cloud-form pruned cypress, espalliers, Harry Lauder's Walking Sticks, and other small trees.

But it was just the same hedge! That had been carefully, sensitively pruned and thereby transformed into something really artful. The gardener looked at these old shrubs and did not say (as 99 out of 100 other gardeners would say): these need to be dug out. But rather said, "Hmm, what can I do to make these beautiful?" And then made them so.

I will never look at a 'banal' plant in quite the same way again.

I agree that there's a place for every plant, except maybe for redtip, lol. Rudbeckia fulgida is an example, a plant that has been overused to banality some say. Luckily for me it was one of those plants that performed well in my clay subsoil with just a bit of amending. I planted it along the driveway in the partial shade of some pines and sweetgums and it proceeded to be a star in the garden every year, blooming the whole month of July. The dappled quality of the shade really brought out the color and beauty of the flowers. A complete accident, really, but luckily a successful one. This species of Rudbeckia tolerates periodic flooding without complaint and has filled in nicely.

Wonderful thread, Melissa. I always enjoy what you have to say! In the past, I have sneered at the delphs for sale at HD and Lowe's, "plant-snobbishly" thinking about the ignorant folks who will buy them and then they'll fry in the summer. But.... this year I'll buy them and enjoy them as annuals! Why not? They aren't that expensive and for the delight they will supply, it will be well worth a few dollars. I won't, however, plant them in the middle of the night! Only one of my friends would even know the name of the delphs and that they aren't supposed to grow here. I did try to order the New Zealand hybrids that will grow here, but the nursery begins shipping April 1 and that is too late to plant them here.

Melissa---this is a wonderful post----I've been sitting here this evening enjoying every word--
Since my surgery and the complications that followed I haven't had much time on the computer but tonight was special for me. JUst sitting here reading all the wonderful comments by all these nice people.
I probably won't be doing much gardening this spring but it is nice to know I can come to this Forum and catch up with what is going on in the world of gardening.
Due do physical limitations my garden is really a "survival of the fittest"---rose garden--but it brings me great joy---PLus the numerous azaleas my DH has propagated over the years.
Thanks again for this wonderful post.

Florence

hoovb: that is a fine example of working with what you're given, and it sounds like a very smart gardener!

Alicia: I like your attitude toward plants. I can get sick of plants that are overused, but sometimes they're the right plants for the site. In Olympia, Wash., where I used to live, I got terribly tired of Mahonia aquifolium (Oregon grape), which is native there, adapted, and planted by every landscaper in the area, and it's just not beautiful enough to deserve all the space it occupies, at least in my opinion. It's also readily available in Italy, and I once reluctantly bought some liners and planted a patch of them in a shady woodland garden. They turned out to be perfectly suited by the conditions, and were just showy enough to be exactly right ornamentally as well. I might add that plants for the combination of shade and alkaline clay soil are not abundant. I really enjoy my mahonia!

buffington: that's logic at work for you! and why not? To you and Florence: I've been thoroughly enjoying the conversation, and I'm glad others have been too. It is beautiful when so many people express their own ideas and respond to others' thoughts.

Florence: Gardens of survivor plants aren't the worst gardens by any means, and I think you'll have a lot of beauty to enjoy this spring. I do so admire your 'Paul's Himalayan Musk'! I wanted to tell you that my plant of it appears to be taking hold as well, and perhaps one day it too will fill the adjoining trees with blossoms and fragrance as yours does. I doubt my PHM will ever be more than a pale shadow of your rose, but even that would be wonderful.

Melissa

When I came to the abbey in 1986, the first things I noticed about the place were: 1) the plantings sure have nothing to do with the surrounding terrain; 2) the buildings sure don't look like my pre-conception of "abbey".

As decades passed, I promised myself, if we could ever have a "do-over", the new plantings would be a lot more indigenous with roses thrown in "jewel like" here and there.

When the care of what little we had went out the window in 2004, I grabbed my chance and started opening up an "all roses in lines" scheme with Mediterranean herbs etc. I had no "master plan" and it is controlled chaos, and uncontrolled chaos, with a lot of the old roses I want to grow too. Sometimes its very pretty, sometimes I think it looks messy. I couldnt look worse than what I inherited...so they dont fire me.

More to Melissas point, I tried growing the Gallicas (never even ONE flower!) and Damasks at first. Except for Félicité Parmentier, the northern type roses have not done well...maybe theyll improve with age, maybe they wont.

The teas have done well, really well. I am told they are what "works" in this zone, and for me they do. So do sage, lavender, and rosemary. I am little by little learning how to cultivate the prettier wildflowers and sages that grow around the hills here.

As more decades pass, were going to have to move because our present site is geologically unstable, so I am using the gardens also as a test ground for the new place (if Im not too old to dig a hole by the time we get in there!)...and there the landscaping will be thought through before we plant a thing. And there wont be a single solitary palm tree or tropical on the site...not at 2600 feet in canyon country, no way.

Wonderful thread. I learn a lot here and appreciate what you all give me.

Jerome