I was wondering if someone with more knowledge of grasses than me could comment on the drawbacks of perennial rye? I know it is not as nice as kentucky bluegrass, but is it THAT much worse? When would someone use it? Why would you want to avoid it like the plague?

You really don't need to avoid it. There's nothing wrong with ryegrass and it can make an absolutely lovely lawn.

That having been said, it has some disadvantages up north of the Mason-Dixon line, and some disadvantages (and advantages) overall.

The advantages are that the color tends to be good, it sprouts *fast*, establishes quickly, and has a nice growth habit. Growth is dense enough to refuse weeds a little better than bluegrass and about the same as fescue. Bluegrass tends toward a slightly looser growth habit (no clumps, many tillers), but you can thicken it with appropriate feeding. It's just a little harder to do than rye is.

Neutrals are the fact that it browns out in summer and is very green over the winter. For southern lawns, that can be an advantage. For northern lawns, the green's under the snow and it's browner during the months you want to use it. For very northern folks, like New England, that means you get about four months a year out of it. On the other hand, without irrigation, the same can be said of bluegrass.

Disadvantages are that it's a clump grass (like fescue), but does not tiller at all (unlike some fescues that produce very short tillers). Reseeding is required occasionally, particularly if you don't irrigate regularly, and it won't repair holes like bluegrass will.

A huge disadvantage is that once you have it, there's one way to get rid of it--Roundup or the like. You can't overseed a ryegrass lawn with anything but ryegrass because of alleopathy--it'll keep any other type of seed from sprouting. For bluegrass, should the shady area in my lawn turn out to be a little too shady (it won't), I could add some fescue there with no problems. Not so with a ryegrass lawn unless it's *really* thin and weak.

It does come down to what you like. There are beautiful ryegrass lawns. I like the blue overtone of a bluegrass lawn and the richness of it. Others like the purer green of rye and the very fine blades. I could just as easily write a post on the Disadvantages of Bluegrass (like really slow sprout, horribly slow establishment, and disease problems).

I like bluegrass. Your mileage may differ.

Woah you just prevented a huge disaster morpheus. I did not know about the rye alleopathy. I was going to use some in the back yard for temporary cover.

I was going to use some in the back yard for temporary cover.

Go ahead, but keep the mix under 10% by weight (since ryegrass seeds weigh roughly five times what bluegrass does, that's 2% by count or so).

That's for perennial rye, and I don't know if annual ryegrass features the same tendency. I would imagine so, but I can't state that for certain.

They're in the same genus, but a different species--and there's a ginormous (the technical term, I believe :-) ) between P. trivialis which nobody wants in their bluegrass lawn and P. pratensis, the actual bluegrass lawn.

Thanks for the awesome explanation. I asked not only because I was curious in general, but also because I am considering seeding a small part of my lawn with rye since nothing else has really grown well there. At this point, I think I will try anything, as the rest of the lawn looks awesome. I just want "something" growing there for the spring.

And is the alleopathy issue proven? Others have referenced it here, but they always seem to suggest that it "might" be the case.

I overseeded this fall with elite KBG into a PRye/KBG yard and was worried about alleopathy, because I had read about the possibility of keeping my seed from sprouting. Here to say that my KBG is coming up among the PRye very well and I had sprouts starting within 7 days. Perhaps not all the KBG I put down sprouted, but cannot tell at this point... just see my seeds coming up all over and they seem very happy at this point.

P. rye looks a lot better than A. rye for sure. It is commonly used to overseed warm season lawns over here but you pay a big price for it though. It really slows down spring green up and takes significantly longer to achieve nice summer lawn if you don't get rid of rye grass in time by means of chemical use...

In the past, I've used A. rye because it was dirt cheap and the back yard is huge. Used it to overseed bare area caused by dogs. Worked like a champ. No muddy tracks during the cool weather.

I would never overseed warm grass lawn though.

morpheuspa,

You've got almost every thing right about PR, except for these two:

"Disadvantages are that it's a clump grass (like fescue), but does not tiller at all (unlike some fescues that produce very short tillers)."

Yes, it's a clump grass like fescue, but to the contrary, it has an exceptional tillering avility which makes it VERY dense.

"Neutrals are the fact that it browns out in summer "

Yes, like ANY grass that you don't water DURING the summer like zoysia and bermuda - they too, will turn brown.

rutgers1,

In my opinion, Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass makes the absolutely BEST turf for home lawns, bluegrass will be a close second. It has a generically dark green color unlike most bluegrass that get their dark green color from fertilization and cool/cold temeperatures.

It stripes extreamely well after mowing, it's very fine bladed, and very dense - much more than bluegrass.

I grow both in my house, but lean toward the PR a little because of what I just mentioned.

I do not know much about alleopathy, so I could not help you there. I can email you some pictures of my PR lawn if you like?

I hope this helps.

Auteck....I would love to see photos.

Here is the followup question....If rye is so good, why does it seem like everyone is obsessed with Kentucky bluegrass? I have been following the board for months now and don't recall any threads with people praising rye. It always seems like people are lamenting the fact that they have rye in their lawns.

One more:

"That having been said, it has some disadvantages up north of the Mason-Dixon line, and some disadvantages (and advantages) overall."

TTPRG grows all along the eastern seabord from NC all the way up to RI. The Mason-Dixon line is NOT an accurate statement. It can grow further north, but only where snow cover is very reliable during the winter months. In other words, its cold torelance is second to bluegrass and fescue.

Its heat tolerance is also questionable in the transition zone, so do not plant on a southern/western exposure.

"If rye is so good, why does it seem like everyone is obsessed with Kentucky bluegrass?"

It's secret... Most people plant what the locals recommend, which to an extend, they are correct. However, you average homeowner thinks grasses are like pine trees, you plant them and forget about them - who cares if there's a severe drought or high heat? Most people do not care for their lawns the way they should, they live it to mother nature to do the work, and when she fails, they blame the grass!!!

Having said that, just because the locals recommend a particular grass it doesn't mean that's the ONLY grass you can grow. I grew fescue for years, then after doing some research I started growing bluegrass when almost every one I talked to told me "no, it does not grow here" One day I decided to try PR and I'm so glad I did...

Look at these pictures:

PR to the right, bluegrass to the left

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This one is during a drought, PR on the left this time, bluegeass on the right:

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This time PR is on top of the picture. I believe the picture was taken late June this year.

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Thanks for posting the photos! Interesting to see that the rye did better than the KBG during the drought. So, in theory, if one could keep KBG going during a drought one should be able to keep the rye green too.

Why did you not go with KBG throughout, or why limit the rye to that one area? Coincidentally, that is the spot where I would introduce some rye.

I think there may be a difference in the way Auteck and Morpheus are using the term tiller.

Auteck is using it the way I've usually used it, to mean new shoots poking up at the edges of a clump to spread out slowly from the base of the clump. Both rye and fescue spread this way.

Morpheus was using tiller to describe rhizomes. At first, I thought that was incorrect, but technically, both rhizomes and stolons are types of tillers.

The difference is that the tillers rye and fescues produce spread at the base of the clump, so the clump slowly gets larger.

Rhizomes shoot out horizontally just below the surface, with new shoots sprouting periodically. KBG, creeping red fescue and some newer varieties of TTTF have rhizomes (so do some of the native grasses I'm planting).

Stolons are somewhat like rhizomes, but they are above ground and are sometimes called runners (like strawberry plants have). Buffalo grass spreads via stolons and I think Bermuda does as well.

Rhizomatous and stoloniferous grasses will fill bare spots fairly quickly, but grasses that only tiller near the base often need to be overseeded periodically because they spread too slowly. If they're seeded closely, the tillering can often keep the lawn fairly dense, but over time, it's inevitable that some areas will be damaged, resulting in grass growning in bunches or clumps. Rye may produce more tillers than fescue, but both are considered bunch grasses.

I overseeded this fall with elite KBG into a PRye/KBG yard and was worried about alleopathy, because I had read about the possibility of keeping my seed from sprouting. Here to say that my KBG is coming up among the PRye very well and I had sprouts starting within 7 days. Perhaps not all the KBG I put down sprouted, but cannot tell at this point... just see my seeds coming up all over and they seem very happy at this point.

Katdog,

Keep us posted on that. If I recall, the process doesn't prevent germination. Germination of KBG was found in the rye grass. It was just that none of the plants ever grew to maturity. (even when seeded at rates as high as 40 pounds per 1,000-square-feet over several years)

Here's a link that will provide more information.

This is an excerpt:

It should be noted that we did see bluegrass seed germination in the fairways. Within a couple of weeks of seeding, bluegrass seeds were germinating in the seeder slits (approximately 1/4-inch depth). And some seedlings, although spindly and weak, did emerge from the slits. But the seedlings did not mature into healthy adult plants.

Though discouraging, the results were not totally unexpected. Observations over the years by turf extension specialists, USGA agronomists, and many golf course superintendents have noted the general futility of overseeding bluegrass into established ryegrass turf

I'm with auteck. When in good health, PR is as beautiful as turf gets. As I've said many times on this board, the new PR cultivars are darker than ANY KBG, have fine texture, and tiller madly. After that gushing, I must say that PR is a heartbreaker too. It doesn't handle the nasty summer weather too well, and can be outright killed by serious cold, such as that found in the northern Great Lakes. Wimpy coastal New England winter weather won't cause much problem, though.

The turfgrass scientists I talk to, complain about the disease susceptibility of PR and then recommend KBG. PR can have problems with brown patch, dollar spot, rust, pythium blight, and red thread. Probably the biggest disease concern right now with PR is gray leaf spot. This disease has been wreaking havoc on PR golf fairways across the Mid-Atlantic and central Midwest. Fortunately, we don't have gray leaf spot here in Michigan--our winters prevent its survival.

One of my favorite things about PR, after its color, is that it adapts to nearly any HOC. It's routinely mowed to one-half inch on fairways, yet can be a good lawn grass mowed to three inches. Oh, did I forget--it's really fast and easy to establish from seed.

A.J.

The turfgrass scientists I talk to, complain about the disease susceptibility of PR and then recommend KBG

Which really has disease issues itself...just different ones.

Again, it comes down to care and personal preference on this.

I've got a little over 15 lbs of top quality alliance blend if anybody wants it cheap sent me an email. Not to break the rules and post a classified ad on here but I mentioned that I ordered too much in another thread and got some interest but then changed my mind at the last minute and thought I'd use it to cover the mud while my creeping red fescue is getting going. Now that I know it spreads aggressively and has alleopathic tendancies I changed my mind again. Those are qualities won't suit my needs but they may suit others.

Not really noted so far, but one of the most common uses of perennial rye is in athletic fields. Those fields take a beating and no grass will really "fill in" damaged areas with constant abuse. The solution? Rye! It germinates in a couple of days and establishes rapidly. All it takes is a couple of weeks between playing seasons and you can successfully rehab the area. If you had a KBG field, it would take several months before it would be playable.

I just overseeded with PhD blend from DLF International. The three cultivars had some of the top ratings in the most recent NTEP survery for turf type perennial rye. It's been 4 weeks and the lawn is looking great.

Here is a link that might be useful: PhD Blend

turf_toes
I'll post some pictures of the before/after. I am on Day 26 for part of my yard and on Day 23 for the other part. Live on 1.5 acres and took some time for me to mow low, aerate the heck out of it and put the seed down.

There were some spots I seeded that started with no grass, due to leveling out and getting rid of unwanted grass in my yard.
Will be interested in your feedback on my lawn.

Great thread.

My TTPR lawn in northern VA was exceptionally dense and a great deep green color from October 2007-May 2007, having been sown last September.

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One characteristic not mentioned is that TTPR will grows exceptionally fast in the peak season.

Come June the lawn saw serious heat and drought stress. A family vacation during early July was enough to push it over the brink.

I contemplated a repeat of the TTPR transition zone experiment this year, but I opted for TTTF instead.

I gave the old, dead TTPR the steel rake treatment and it came up very easily to provide a very clean slate for renovating this fall.

Last saturday, I seeded with a good blend of TTPR, so I'll be part of the test-group to see if the alleopathy is a problem.

Disadvantages:
(1) Can be completely wiped out, suddenly, by disease, and this seems to be much more common than years ago, although it's still not usual. Preventing that risk requires regular application of fungicides.
(2) Sensitive to drought -- wilts sooner than other grasses. Not well adapapted to drought-prone climates. (I believe it has strong but shallow roots.) By comparison, TTTF does well in moderate drought because it has moderately deep roots (unimproved tall fescue has incredibly deep roots and can stay green through fairly impressive drought), but all tall fescues will actually die if the root zone (and the roots) completely dry out. KBG goes safely dormant in drought and will survive nicely if the crowns get, say, even a quarter inch of water every week or two.
(3) Although not a concern to most folks here, perennial ryegrass does not flourish if not fertilized. In low-fertility soil, it just looks bad. In alkaline soil, good color ofter requires regular doses of iron. Given water and the right nutrients, though, it will say thank you with enthusiasm.
(4) Quite sensitive to extreme cold -- will not survive bitter cold winters (strong contrast with kentucky bluegrass which is extremely cold hardy).
(5) Grows incredibly fast during moderate weather (spring and fall). You'll be mowing at least twice a week.

Advantages:
(1) Beautiful texture, and the leaves can stand up fairly vertically parallel so that a good mowing job produces a marvelously even surface. Ya gotta see a good perennial ryegrass lawn to believe how good it can look.
(2) In not so bitter cold winters, maintains a nice green.
(3) From seed, sprouts quickly and establishes vigorously.
(4) Tough grass blades that stand up to wear.
(5) In contrast to KBG, can be mowed low without greatly deteriorating (mowing KBG low through a hot dry summer will really clobber it).

If the rye/KBG relationship - or lack thereof - is true, you have to wonder why Scotts packages both in so many of their mixes. Off the top of my head, the combination occurs in their Sun and Shade mix and Sunny mix.

If I were taking a stab at it, my guess is that they package the two together because:
1) KBG has a better reputation.
2) Most homeowners are not patient enough to wait for KBG, thus they have to throw in something that will germinate within a few days.
3) The average homeowner really doesn't care what comes up - as long as it is green.

I have learned a lot from this thread. May the deity of the OP's choice be smiling upon them and bless their lawn for posting this topic.

Here are a few pics from my overseeding/fill in with Award, Moonlight, Boutique KBG. What do you think?

Front overseeded 9/6, not mowed yet
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Side overseeded 9/3;mowed 1st time
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Seeded 9/6
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Seeded 9/3 in a spot that died due to leaving the spreader wide open when putting soybean meal in it (doesn't stay in spreader when you do that and the grass died--but boy think of the nutrients in that area-he..he)
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katdog_turf.......Was that just rye beforehand? And if so, is there a significant difference? It looks very nice.

Hi rutgers1, No- The yard was seeded when the house was built in 2002 with PRye and KBG. (20% Laredo Perennial Ryegrass, 20% Cutter Perennial Ryegrass, 20% Gator 2 Perennial Ryegrass, 15% Liberataor Kentucky Bluegrass, 15% Award Kentucky Bluegrass, 10% NuGlade Kentucky Bluegrass)

It was kinda strange to me, cause the KBG seemed to take very well in my backyard, while the PRye seemed to do better in the sides and front yard. Here is a pic of my backyard. turf_toes showed me a link regarding allelopathy, which sounded familiar to what I have read and heard, but after seeing what Wikipedia shared in that it was difficult to "separate the affects" thought I would take a chance.. Jury is still out for me, cause of what turf_toes shared that they sure do come up, but may not do well.

So glad I had BestLawn help me pick my elite cultivars, cause they seem to like my yard-BIG SMILE:
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