I love the look of a Tudor! That much lawn must take a long time to cut, wow! Can't imagine cutting that every 3 days. If you can kill it (which aint easy) fescue, or even PR would be a lot less work.

I'd love more than anything for you to give up that nasty weed but if it's been there for any length of time, you'll go broke trying to kill it and it will just come back over and over and over again.
I've tried for over two years and 21 applications of grass killer. That's twenty-one.

If you can live with a fescue/bermuda mix that's about as good as it's going to get. Shame because what a property.

Yup, the Bermuda has been there since we built the house (1979). Well, shall I say we plugged it in '79 and was fully established a few years later. Might I ask what you used to try killing your bermuda, quirkyquercus?

Wrager, it really doesn't take as long as one might think. Our 797 Z-trak with a 72" wide deck can get the job done in about 2 hours. Should take less time once we get it leveled out.

Quirky states your problem. Easier said than done to get rid of bermuda.

I got rid of about 98 percent of mine the first year by spraying it weekly with Roundup from mid July to mid August, then using a sod cutter to get rid of "most" of the stolons, rhyzomes or whatever they're called, then overseeding with fescue. Sodding fescue is even better if you can afford it.

Even with all that, I still had to hand dig some that came back for a couple of years.

I had some slowly work its way back even in year six and year seven. Not a lot, a couple of spots the size of trash cans.

But, if you want to go to war with bermuda, just know its a formidable opponent and will try to wear you down.

PS It took a front end loader and a dump truck to load and haul off the bermuda "sod" I cut out of a 2000 square foot side yard. From a yard the size of the one in your pic, whew.

What did I use?
QuickPro Dry powered by Roundup
Roundup consumer concentrate
Roundup Consumer R-T-U
Spectracide Grass & weed kiler

The spectracide has been my favorite. They sell it at lowes/HD. I have just now given up. Even if I could kill it, there is just so much of it in the area that it will wind up back in there someway or another.

I did observe that where last year I had overseeded creeping red fescue into bermuda without attempting to kill the bermuda first and the CRF had grown so vigorously in height that it shaded it and I'm sure what was going on beneath the soil was an all out assault. CRF also doesn't require that much fertilization so it can overpower bermuda which requires heavy fertilization.

It just so happens that I'm using fine fescue throughout my yard this year except the front which is bent and a part of the side where I have KBG just to say I have KBG and prove that it grows here.
But I think I could live with a fine fescue /bermuda mix so long as the CRF was holding up like it did so incredibly well this summer.

You might do a search in this forum for a thread titled "Down on the farm" or something like that. A bermuda sod farmer that frequents this forum posted some information about his operation. Basically they cut sod and wait a while and there is a full field of it come back and ready to cut again. No plugging or seeding needs to happen. We can also hope for an extended period of single digit temps but that isn't too likely to happen here in GA.

So who is going to tell him he missed the boat already, and if attempted next spring by July all the Fescue will be dead and the Bermuda back in force?

Who else is going to tell him Fescue, has to be over seeded every year, and that a 27 year old Bermuda lawn will be next to impossible to irradicate, not to mention the cost involved for a lawn this large?

I think some of us tried T-Dub. But OP's in kansas. Isn't that a cold climate most of the year?

But OP's in kansas. Isn't that a cold climate most of the year?

I've never been there myself. But my grandparents were from western Kansas (Smith and Phillips County) and they used to tell me stories of snowstorms where the drifts would reach the roof of their homes.

So yeah, I would think that qualifies as a cold climate. ;>)

I think if t-dub has his way the entire planet would be covered in bermuda sod. Tall fescue is a big pain in the butt though. That looks like full sun facing south which would be as struggle just about anywhere with tall fescue in the summer but at leawst it will hold its color and make all the maintenance worthwhile.

Depends on where in KS Toto is, but yes KS is to far north IMO for Bermuda, but not impossible.

My points are it is way to late to even consider this option. They would need to start in late July with irradication and removal of the Bermuda to be ready for a late August or early September seeding.

Depending on where in KS they are, the soil is pretty good sandy loam, and 20-year old Bermuda will have a very deep root system almost making it impossible to radicate at enourmous expense.

Trying to do this in spring is futile and only result in failure with the Bermuda making a strong comeback by July.

"They would need to start in late July..."

And that's assuming there is rain.

Plant about 1,000 trees. That will get rid of bermuda.

Yeah, Texas-Weed, that is why I started spraying mine in July and August to put in the fescue in September when it is just starting to grow and the bermuda is about to go dormant anyway.

It was a big job on a side yard. On a nice big lawn like the one pictured, in my opinion, only someone with a sod cutter, small tractor and front end loader and dump truck should even consider it. Or, of course, the finances to pony up for same.

Trying to spray bermuda into submission, is just like Quirky says, a truly impossible dream. I've sprayed small areas in my back yard five or six times in a summer, and noticed no real effect long term.

In a few days I plan to seed my back yard but I have officially given up spraying the bermuda sprouts. I'm just tearing them up with my heel in the hopes that no leaves above ground will mean there is no way to make food for the plant to survive. But somehow it manages after essentially being dormant for a year and with competition from other grass. We've only had 3 or 4 rains this summer so there is nothing to get the roots to run out of steam.

I can't help but think if the movie Independence Day where they tried to blow up the space ship but everything they tried failed. Then Jeff Goldblum's character said "let's give the spaceship a cold" and they infected it with a virus...
Is there not one single lethal disease that could be inflicted upon bermuda to kill it? Theres only about a million different diseases for other types of grass. Maybe t-dub knows.

"So who is going to tell him he missed the boat already, and if attempted next spring by July all the Fescue will be dead and the Bermuda back in force?
Who else is going to tell him Fescue, has to be over seeded every year, and that a 27 year old Bermuda lawn will be next to impossible to irradicate, not to mention the cost involved for a lawn this large?"
I agree with you 100% TW.

"That is,until somebody told me I could build a nice fescue lawn" What is wrong with a nice Bermudagrass lawn? If I were you I would just fix the drainage issues and leave the Bermuda. You will open a can of worms with a massive project like that, a project that could take YEARS to get established. Even just winter overseeding might get a little expensive too.

Doing it in the fall, he will have as good of a chance as anyone to get a nice fescue yard established within a matter or weeks. In fact, doing it in the fall in Kansas, he shouldn't even have much bermuda trying to come back until summer. And that is the issue he will face, keeping the bermuda from coming back from roots and stolons to take over the nice fescue yard he will probably have established by then.

Keeping it out/down is a battle. I only had a few sprigs that I hand dug out about six inched deep the first year or two. But, it did infiltrate sight unseen so that I had to roundup and sod over a couple of spots in the last 2 years.

Whether its worth the effort and money to switch over to a fescue yard is a personal choice. I was happy with my decision.

"That is, until somebody told me I could build a nice fescue lawn since I have a sprinkler system. They seem to think I can keep it green all summer long and still enjoy the benefits of a fescue lawn..."

Nobody has brought up the amount of water that would be needed to keep that much Fescue nice and green all summer. It would be a huge expense, and that is if you don't have water restrictions.

"So who is going to tell him he missed the boat already, and if attempted next spring by July all the Fescue will be dead and the Bermuda back in force?

Who else is going to tell him Fescue, has to be over seeded every year, and that a 27 year old Bermuda lawn will be next to impossible to irradicate, not to mention the cost involved for a lawn this large?

Depends on where in KS Toto is, but yes KS is to far north IMO for Bermuda, but not impossible."

texas-weed,

First of all, I never said I was going to start seeding fescue THIS YEAR. My initial post was very clear to point out I was going to start killing off the common Bermuda NEXT spring/summer to fix drainage issues and put down yukon bermuda.

I was just asking what the forum thought of changing from bermuda to fescue. I never said I was definitely going to do it nor did I imply that it was my intention. Then comes the Kansas joke (like I've never heard them before) with the statement that Kansas was too far north for bermuda. Look at the pics, does it look too far north to you? I started the yard 27 years ago and have never had a problem with the bermuda. Many lawns around here are of a bermuda variety.

"It was a big job on a side yard. On a nice big lawn like the one pictured, in my opinion, only someone with a sod cutter, small tractor and front end loader and dump truck should even consider it. Or, of course, the finances to pony up for same."

rcnaylor,

I am well aware of the work that would be needed to accomplish the switch. It is not a problem financially or with labor. I have all the equipment needed with plenty of help.

"What is wrong with a nice Bermudagrass lawn? If I were you I would just fix the drainage issues and leave the Bermuda. You will open a can of worms with a massive project like that, a project that could take YEARS to get established. Even just winter overseeding might get a little expensive too."

firstandgoal,

There is nothing wrong with a nice bermuda lawn, obviously since I've had it as long as I have at this house. Time does not matter as long as the switch from bermuda to fescue can be established.

"Nobody has brought up the amount of water that would be needed to keep that much Fescue nice and green all summer. It would be a huge expense, and that is if you don't have water restrictions."

tak2w,

Why does everybody assume I have not thought this through? Watering is not a problem. I have my sprinkler system hooked into two wells to water the bermuda as it is now.

Again, I was just wondering if it was possible to switch from my 27 year old bermuda grass yard to fescue. I get the point, it is not impossible, but probably improbable to keep the bermuda from growing back. I guess I will just continue with my original plan to start killing off the common bermuda next spring/summer (reading this texas-weed?) and fix the drainage issues along with putting down yukon seed.

Thanks for all of the replies, even the ones insulting my intelligence. It started off so well with wrager, quirkyquercus and rcnaylor. Not sure why the snide remarks were needed.

nienke,

I don't think anyone meant to insult you or Kansas. For what it's worth, the toughest town in the old west was Dodge City - - which is in Kansas, not Texas (last time I checked).

My grandparents always raved about what a beautiful place it was.

turf toes,

Thank you for your kind words. I love it here. Only place I know where you can have snow, rain, a tornado and sunshine all in the same day. ;-)

The snide remarks are well.... snide. But the people that make those remarks are seldom wrong as much as I hate to admit it.

If I said that KS is too far north I was assuming that since I am in Northern GA and only get 4 optimal months of of the sod varieties of bermuda here then KS must have an even shorter optimal growing season. But I don't know what your climate is like there. I lived in orlando, fl for a while and bermuda is very uncommon there but you do find it once and a blue moon and it does not go dormant in that climate. To each his own but I can't justify the expense to maintain it for such a short growing season here and no offense but your lawn is yellow.

nienke, you need to develop a since of humor. I did not insult KS, although I could. My reference Where in Kansas are you TOTO was a question. I am a sod Farmer who grows Bermuda grass and owns/operates a landscaping company so I might know a thing or two about it that you do not.

So now my question to you is why are you going to rip up common Bermuda only to replace it with common Bermuda (Yukon is a common Bermuda). If it were me, leave the existing grass, fix the drainage, and then over seed with a blend of common type Bermuda that has very good cold tolerance that will survive your harsh winters. No, Bermuda is not a good choice for KS, that is why the locals suggested Fescue, unless you live in Wichita and east along the OK border. Otherwise your grass is only green 3 or 4 short months a year and likely to suffer some winter kill-off, especially the hybrids.

nienke, leave Bergarbage grass in there and just overseed heavely with Turf-Type Perennial Ryegrass. It forms a beautiful turf during the growing season, in the summer becomes less active and it might die if not watered. But since you have an irrigation system, then that shouldn't be a problem. TTPRG's cold tolerance could be a problem in KS, but you are in Zone 6 (yes?) so you should be OK. Perennial Ryegrass grows here in NC, and it takes zone 6 winters from the mountains where snow cover is very realible.

Nice house, too! Love tudor-style homes...

quirky,

No offense taken. Actually, Southern KS has about the same season as Northern GA. Yes, there isn't a long growing season (4-5 good months) which is why I started this thread.

texas-weed,

Humor is a hard thing to develop on a message board. All I see are words and I didn't see your tongue in cheek. I was more insulted from your first post rather than the KS joke. Being an entrepreneur, do you speak to your customers like that? I would thing not. You did hit the nail on the head, I'm approximately 15 miles south of Wichita just outside of a small town called Clearwater (not Florida). Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "common bermuda", if that indeed is what yukon bermuda is called. The stuff I have presently does not have the color, resistance to SDS or early spring green up that yukon offers. We do, however, have at least 4 good months of green grass during the summer.

auteck,

Thank you for the suggestion. I'm not familiar with that type of grass, could you elaborate a little more? Is a basically used the same way that rye grass is used? I would rather go another route than put that down.

nienke, my first post was sarcastic humor which I frequently use here. It was an attempt to point out what was being over looked and not commented about, you cannot kill off a 27-year-old Bermuda lawn without great expense and most likely a futile effort.

Any seeded variety of Bermuda is common, even Yukon. So it makes no since to kill off what you have to replace it with a like grass. Like I said, repair the drainage then over seed with a blend of Bermuda grasses that have good cold weather tolerance. Between what you have and the blend, one will dominate in your environment.

I would NOT suggest you over seed with any type of Rye or any type of cool season grass. It will stunt your Bermuda grass in the spring, die about mid summer leaving your Bermuda starving and will not recover until the end of the season when it comes time to over seed again with Rye again. It is a vicious expensive cycle that pros use to generate business during the off season and they use tricks not available to you to kill off the Rye early in the spring so the Bermuda will green up and thrive.

FWIW your weather is nothing like NC. You get a lot of snow, ice, and freezing weather during the winter. NC completely shuts down with even a hint of a dusting of snow in the forecast, and cannot spell sand, salt, and snow plow trucks.

See he's usually right but he doesn't like to reveal what the chemical is that is used to selectively kill rye even though.
What I'd like to know is if the rye can retard bermuda so much then why not use it and use lots of it and get 8+ months of green lawn and then have brown or semi-green bermuda for the remainder of the summer? Aside from the cost of course. The seed for an area that side would really be a lot to have to do a new lawn seeding rate with it every year.

texas-weed,

We both know your first post was not an attempt at humor. I am not naïve. You like to belittle a person before offering any advice (even if you know what you're talking about). Your first paragraph has very little merit if you had read my entire initial post. Nothing had been overlooked, I stated I wasn't planting fescue this year, so there was no boat to miss.

If we can get past the ego, I still don't understand why it makes no sense to kill off what I have now and seed with Yukon. I have one strip of Yukon north of the driveway (front yard in pics is south) that I planted last year (I was just experimenting). It sure looked a whole lot better this summer than what you see in the pics, plus it's still green. Once I fix the drainage issues, something will need to be planted. I will be hauling in approximately 40 yd.³ of dirt to create a swell that dumps the water into our pond. I had narrowed my bermuda grass seed down to Yukon and Savannah. Went with Yukon due to its cold tolerance.

Not sure why you mention the weather in NC not being like the weather in Southern Kansas. If it was because of my comment to quirky, he stated he was from Northern GA. I've never been there myself, just going off of what he said was their growing season. Which is basically the same here.

quirky,

I don't know a lot about rye grass, but what I've seen from people around here looks like nothing I want to put in my yard.

We both know your first post was not an attempt at humor.

Yes it was, you cannot read my mind. My first comment was directed at the members of the forum to quit sugar coating the facts. They know me and my since-of-humor where as you are new here and do not..

Your first paragraph has very little merit if you had read my entire initial post. Nothing had been overlooked, I stated I wasn't planting fescue this year, so there was no boat to miss.

Incorrect IMO. Look at the title of your post and your comment in the initial post:

That is, until somebody told me I could build a nice fescue lawn since I have a sprinkler system. They seem to think I can keep it green all summer long and still enjoy the benefits of a fescue lawn (green lawn well past the Bermuda dormancy). My lawn is already starting the transition into dormancy, so I was wondering what you people thought of my query.

That leads me to believe and many others I assume from their responses that you were considering a to replace the Bermuda with Fescue.

You may think I like to belittle people before offering advice but that is just your opinion not based on historical facts of my performance over the last two years. I offer no apologies, you are free to take or reject my advice, doesnt make me one bit of difference one way or the other

I still don't understand why it makes no sense to kill off what I have now and seed with Yukon.

Because it is a waist of time, money, and effort to do so on a project this large. What ever you have will come back unless you use soil sterilizers and remove all the sod plus a few inches of top-soil then replace it.

I suspect since you said you plugged the existing Bermuda 27-years ago it was U3. It has pretty good cold tolerance; it just needs more water and fertilizer than Yukon to look nice. If maintained U3 will look better than Yukon with equal cold tolerance.

You are on the right track looking at Yukon as it has pretty good cold tolerance among the common varieties. I still recommend a blend of at least two or three of the top varieties, because one will dominate and take over. It is like playing 3 numbers on a Craps Table, your chances are 300% better of winning. The top seeded varieties for cold tolerance are ranked in order for your area:

Riviera
SWI 1014 and 1046
Yukon
Contessa
Veracruz

Now dont come away thinking common or seeded Bermuda varieties are the best cold tolerant of the Bermuda grasses because they are not. They are just the most inexpensive and easiest to obtain. The champs are hybrids like Ashmore, OKC 70-18, Patriot, and Aussie Green, Midlawn, and Premiere. However finding one of these is not likely in your area, you can find Patriot and OKC 70-18 south of you in Oklahoma City area sod farms and the cost are about $1.50/ft2 if you pick it up. Up to double that if delivered.

texas-weed,

"Your first paragraph has very little merit if you had read my entire initial post. Nothing had been overlooked, I stated I wasn't planting fescue this year, so there was no boat to miss.

Incorrect IMO. Look at the title of your post and your comment in the initial post:

That is, until somebody told me I could build a nice fescue lawn since I have a sprinkler system. They seem to think I can keep it green all summer long and still enjoy the benefits of a fescue lawn (green lawn well past the Bermuda dormancy). My lawn is already starting the transition into dormancy, so I was wondering what you people thought of my query.

That leads me to believe and many others I assume from their responses that you were considering a to replace the Bermuda with Fescue."

You are correct, I am considering replacing the Bermuda with Fescue. Tell me now that correlates into "missing the boat"? None of my posts have said I am seeding fescue this year, so which boat did I miss?

I am not new here and have seen your writings pasted onto many posts. I did not start the thread to have a pissing contest with you, so we'll have to agree to disagree on your intentions. For someone who owns and operates a sod farm, you sure do have a lot of extra time to post on here. I do appreciate the facts and opinions you've brought to the table, so I will ponder over them until I start my project next year. U3 may be what I have, I'm not really sure. That was too long ago and I got the plugs from a local nursery. It has served me well the past two decades. I just see all the new varieties that have come out with better characteristics and overall performance.

Please do not read into this thinking I don't appreciate the advice from you and the other people on this forum. If not for this thread, I probably would have killed everything off next spring/summer and put down fescue in the fall. I really do like the way that KBG Midnight grass looks, wish I could make the switch. So, I'll fix the drainage issue next year and go over my Bermuda options then.

Thanks to all the people who posted on this issue and/or commented on my house. That was very pleasing to hear. Maybe I will post a pic of the yard after my project next year.

If you are going to over seed or re-seed with Bermuda you might want to ramp up your schedule next year so you can get the seed donw by late May or early June so it has a decent chance to establish itself and increase your chances of success going into next fall.

May as well use bent and get a good 8 mos of high performance. Common bermuda is for amateur lawn growers & roadside and utility use. You have a nice property so to use junk weeds like common bermuda for your turf is a travesty when you have other options.

Has anyone on the board had success with Turflon + Acclaim?

Several university studies seem to have had fairly good success:
http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/turfornamental/sctop/turfsec/weedsci/weedsci0.htm
http://ag.arizona.edu/turf/triberm94.html

Both studies were done in 94/95. I realize Arizona testing conditions were significantly "drier" that what would be found in KS (on average).

Here's one from U of Tenn - slide 2 conveys the opinion of probably 90% of us - notable exceptions being T-dub and other bermuda growers (maybe I should clarify that as "and other 'intentional' bermuda growers"): http://utturf.net/presentations/Golf/Bermudagrass%20Control%20in%20Zoysia%20and%20Tall%20Fescue.pdf

The Tenn. study mentions Fusilade, but has a high damage rate to fescue. Which you may not care about being you're just going for a kill-off before seeding anyway.

Not being an expert by anymeans, I appreciated this study by NC State as well - a little clearer in their study description, and also extended the study over 2 years:
http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/extension/presentations/2004/BermudaFriendorFoe1-12-04.pdf

All this being said, I've used none of these options. Turlon is about $35 / qt (maybe per pint?), Acclaim, IIRC, is some obscene amount like $100 / pint. Not sure about Fusilade.

I don't know if these products require any sort of license / permit to apply, which would restrict their use to professionals (and drive up your cost).

And lastly, most of the studies call it "bermuda grass control" or "suppression" - not sure if that's professional-speak for killing it, or just thinning it out.

Any reason why KBG wouldn't work in Kansas? To much heat and drought potential?

Good luck,

Gags

Gags, as you mentioned in the latter part of your post it is not because those chemicals aren't effective, it's because for the everyday homeowner is not practical to pay that kind of money and frequently apply it. It doesn't kill it permanently so it is an ongoing thing. I think it is more to keep it from doing damage to golf courses or perhaps agricultural interests, where the cost & effort is well worth it because the damage will be incredibly devastating.