seems it would take an expensive amount of alcohol to do anything - agricultural vinegar [like 10% acetic acid] will spot kill weeds quick, tho many will regrow from the roots - boiling water works on some things too, otherwise 'herbicides' are not 'natural'

Bill

I was afraid of that. I thought of boiling water but it would take too much. I guess Round up is my only real choice.

Have you seen the posting in this forum called "a good flame weeder/weed wand?" It may be another option you'd want to consider.

Here is a link that might be useful: a good flame weeder/weed wand?

That is an excellent idea, but I think my husband will have a cow if I spend $70 on a torch. On the other hand I already have a not as convenient propane torch. It would require a lot of bending but that should do the trick.

If your back gets tired, maybe there are rentals available. (I've never checked into it myself.)
Or depending on how the controls work, could you attach your propane torch to a pole?

K.

Round Up is NOT your only choice. If you don't have cattle, geese, or goats, VINEGAR is your organic choice. I use 20% vinegar from Lowes and it works great. You do have to keep it out of your face/eyes, but it really does kill whatever you want to kill. What do you want to kill? Even baking soda kills some plants.

Alcohol is a horrible thing to use on plants because of the damage it does to the soil.

Will the regular white vinegar used for cooking do or is the Lowe's vinegar something special? I honestly can't even recall seeing vinegar in Lowes.

I'm not sure what I want to kill, I can't id the plants, but they are growing between the cracks in the driveway and sidewalk and causing the cement to move. I also have a lot of moss to kill but I threw some hort grade lime on it and I hope that does the trick.

Because I have a 2yr old who follows me around while I garden chemicals are my last choice. If I can do it organically first I will.

CarolinaKate, my propane torch that I got for sterilizing cutting tools is brand new although I bought it several months ago. I might check and see if Lowe's has something that can be attached to a pole or has a wand type attachment. I do see from the literature on this torch that some models can use an adapter but I'm not sure if this one can. If I can upgrade for around $20 then that is doable. If the vinegar works though that's probably the easiest solution as I can use that while my son is with me and don't have to have someone watch him for me.

If you have a 2yr. old that follows you around the garden, I would suggest you do not use 20% vinegar in belief that it is somehow safer than other herbicides. It is much more acutely toxic than typical herbicides as it is quite a strong acid. It can cause permanent corneal damage if it gets in the eyes, as well as being corrosive to skin. Treat this strength vinegar very, very carefully. There are no legally registered 20% vinegar herbicide end use products. If there were they would require substantial safety gear. Lower strength vinegars, such as household vinegar at 5% in strength, are much different in their safety properties of course. The link is to a good article that discusses these issues.

Here is a link that might be useful: Acetic acid as herbicide

JAYK

>. There are no legally registered 20% vinegar herbicide

The only things that are registered are man made by Monsanto, Bonide et al = you can not grow oranically because you are not "Buying" Their products

Cow flop is not an EPA registered fertilizer because farmers don't pay politics a $1oo,000,000 a year like Monsanto, Dow, Dupont, Aventis, Bayer etc.

Byron

There are many naturally derived products, including acetic acid based herbicides, that are legally registered herbicides. There are also many OMRI listed products that are legally registered pesticides. It has nothing to do with whether they are naturally derived or organically approved. If a product makes a claim as a pesticide, they must be registered. And as such, they are required to establish label requirements for specific appropriate safety measures to be taken during application, such as gloves, eye protection and so forth. My point is that anyone using unregistered pesticide products will not encounter the familiar label wording that provides for appropriate safety precautions. In the case of a few products, such as 20% vinegar, this can raise very real safety issues.

Plain, white, regular household vinegar, with a little added liquid soap to help it stick to the leaves, will do a fair job of killing things, as long as the sun is shining and it's reasonably warm (over 75). If you can find it, pickling vinegar is stronger, 7 or 10% as against 5%.

While I wouldn't want to be sprayed directly in the face with this, so you might not want to spray on a windy day with your toddler following you, and while it ONLY kills what it contacts, so you might need to re-spray things with a strong root system that lets them resprout, it is as safe as you can get.

Again, I wouldn't use it without taking precautions, with a toddler in close attendance, but boiling water might be as effective as the vinegar on your weeds in the sidewalk/driveway cracks. And it's totally non-toxic.

I use household distilled (white) vinegar to keep my brick sidewalk weed free.

Natural Herbicide-Vinegar

10% Vinegar is a great natural herbicide. Anything less than 10% is not going to be very effective. You might even need 20% for those tougher weeds. Many of the organic products are just as dangerous as the synthetic products, however the organics break down into natural materials and don't leach into the soil. The most dangerous insecticide ever was a completely organic product(pure nicotine). You might add a little orange oil to your vinegar for a surfactant enhancement. You must spray your solution in full sun. Vinegar works by breaking through the wax coating on leaves and the plant is dehydrated and dies. It is not a systemic and may need to be sprayed more than once. However, you should see results within an hour or two. Good Luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Nature's Guide Organics

I've used 30% vinegar from Peaceful Valley Organics ... mixed with a little dishsoap as surfacant, worked great BUT it is a STRONG acid and has to be handled with respect and caution.

AND, when you add the $7.00 gal (est.) purchase price w/ the shipping and handling, it was fair expensive. And, no local source (I looked and looked).

So, now I use regular (5%) white vinegar, cheapest I can find -- $1.69/gallon at Fart & Smile (Smart & Final). Spray A LOT (lower concentration = higher rate of application). Adding the dish soap as surfacant makes a big difference. I sprayed last week w/o the soap and it didn't do nearly as good a job. I figger I have to spray 2x as often w/ 5% as w/ the stronger stuff, but its cheaper AND safer.

I try to spray BEFORE full sun. It ain't important that the vinegar be applied in full sun, just that it get full sun the same day it is applied, at least that's my experience. And I try to avoid bein' in full sun WHENEVER possible.

Oh year, boiling water does a fair good job as well, especially on weeds in driveway / sidewalk. Safe when handled with caution and coordination (and with NO 2 year olds in the vicinity ... but your two year old can play in the area in 15 to 30 minutes -- don't try that w/ chemicals). I don't like usin' boiling water in or near garden beds, tho' as it kills the microherd, at least locally. And don't anyone start on me with boiling water not bein' green due to energy consumption. I figger once you count in the energy used in production and transport to market, any commercially available product (even vinegar) prolly uses just about as much energy.

Peace,

- Sequoia

Thanks for the surfactant suggestion.

Boiling water would be tough. I don't have a huge area outside, but enough that boiling water would be a real pain in the rear. And it's hard to find time w/o the 2yr old stuck to me like glue. The vinegar solution sounds like an easy thing to try first.

Interesting story about human urine being used by an Englishman to try to kill his neighbors trees that he didn't like.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1722995,00.html

You can try vinegar as a natural herbicide. Garden stores, nurseries and feed stores sell "Horticultural Vinegar" which is 20% acetic acid whereas the regular stuff you get at the grocery store is only 5%. I understand you can also purchase 9% stuff at grocery stores that is sold as "pickling" vinegar. On the other hand, I've used the cheap 5% stuff with good results.

The vinegar/acid burns the top foliage and eventually chokes off the weed. Some established weeds may continue to come back however.

I had a previous thread here where I used the regular 5% vinegar on several different types of weeds. That link is located below:

Regular Vinegar as Weed Killer (With Pics) Link

You also might want to check these articles below out regarding vinegar as a herbicide:

Organic Weed Controls ~ Vinegar as an Herbicide

Natural Alternative to Round-Up?

I hope this gives you some other ideas.

-Todd

bumblebees mom,

As a mother of four, I understand the "having this creature attached to my leg" syndrome, but it really sounds to me like you just aren't wanting to make the effort.

Boiling water is the easiest thing to do. Set up two large pots on the back burner of the stove and get them going. Use a two quart pitcher (like pyrex) and get that going in the microwave.

Just fill the pitcher with the boiling water and start a new pot of water on the stove. Walk outside and pour it in the cracks.

Give the toddler a popsicle and tell him/her to sit and eat it while you work. I can't image that you couldn't take a few minutes in the evening after the little one is in bed to take care of this if he/she doesn't have the other parent to keep any eye on him/her.

If you can't do boiling water with a child, you certainly wouldn't be able to use a flame and keep and eye on the child too.

Gloria

Todd thanks for the links. I actually posted this about 2mos back and I did try the 5% vinegar. I have actually been meaning to post an update and thanks to people who posted. First time I forgot the surfactant but remembered on my second try and it did indeed make a big difference. It worked but was a little time taking, but i think that's just my sprayer being too slow. Now 2mos later most are back and I need to do it again. A little stronger solution of vinegar would probably be a little better but it's workable esp with the heat wave and really bright sun we have.

Gloria, I felt your comment on not wanting to make the effort a bit rude and uncalled for. How dare you decide what I should and should not make an effort for. And since we're judging here, no I think it's grossly negligent to leave a 2yr old *alone* in the home while I tend to the yard because we all know that 2yr olds do exactly as they are told. My child sleeps after it is dark so going out after he sleeps is out of the question and again something I'm not comfortable doing as yardwork is seldom just a couple minutes and I would not want him getting up and looking for me. Not only that but I have to go down a couple of sets of steps to reach the driveway as we're on a hill and the driveway with weeds is a basement garage. I asked for suggestions and got several, but beyond that it's up to me to decide what will be the most doable for my specific situations. It's not up to you to judge nor should I have to go into any specifics of why something would or would not be the best option(s) for me or how my childcare situation may or may not have changed in the last 2mos. Yes you did indeed rub me the wrong way.

No problem. I've noticed that weeds like crabgrass come back but the vinegar will at least temporarily keep it away. The smaller leafed weeds like clover seem to die.

When my son was 2 yrs. old I taught him what a weed was and where the compost pile was. He spent plenty of time tending the garden with me, pulling weeds, checking out bugs. From birth to 10 he was like a sponge, absorbing all that I taught him. Now he's a teenager and those days are long gone. Sharing your knowledge of gardening with your child can be very rewarding and gives them a broader view of nature.

By the way, now it's like pulling teeth to get him anywhere near the garden unless he's looking for food :)

Have you considered laying black garbage bags down and duct taping them. Not the prettiest option, but not at all toxic. A few weeks should smother the plants I would think. Maybe consider filling the cracks in in or planting something in those cracks that will croud out any grass/unwanted weeds; I don't know what would be ideal but maybe your nursury man would know.

Another option, one my mom used to do with us is to cut the weeds off with scissors (not as good as getting the roots, but basically the same as killing the foliage with a flamer or vinegar I think. I'm not sure about 2yro but maybe he could have the plasty saftey scissors to 'help' mommy. Those things barely cut so he shouldn't hurt himself and they develop good fine motor coordination if 2yo is old enough (my mom's a kindergarden teacher :) and he might have fun with it, we used to love to 'help' mom cut the grass and weeds.

It could be a fun project for you both :)

bumblebee mom

I understand your concerns 'bout leavin' the little one alone even for a few minutes, and 'bout boilin' water & 2 yr olds. However, if you cannot get someone else to look after your child for a short time, I would forgo the vinegar as well. 5% vinegar in salad or on skin is no problem. 5% vinegar in eyes or on an open cut can be h#!!, esp. for a 2 yr old. I know I would not have sprayed vinegar w/ my DD in tow when she was 2 ... or 3 ... or maybe even 4. By 5, "stay 10 feet away from Papa" was easy to understand and comply with.

BTW, my e.vile BG has now grown back just 'bout everywhere I've sprayed w/ vinegar (of any strenght) or doused w/ boilin' water. When my back feels better, I'm gonna get out the ol' (actually not so old) 'lectric weed wacker. But I'm still usin' really hot h2o for the area between the driveway and garden bed(s).

Peace,
- Sequoia

FWIW, I think a good analogy with different strengths of vinegar might be that of a BB gun, .22 rifle and deer rifle. What I think most were trying to point out is just because its called vinegar and looks the same doesn't mean the different strenghts should be treated any thing at all alike.

Like the guns, with adequate knowledge and proper handling they can all be relatively safe. But, if someone unknowingly treats the dangerous gun like a "harmless" little BB gun, it could be disasterous.

I think its good knowledgeable folks mention the danger and let the parent decide from there what choices to make.

I feel that enough has been said about vinegar and I agree with most of it (I also have used boiling water with much success) ... so I am going to dedicate this post to providing another alternative.
I bought a flammer in January and have fallen in love. It works great, and fast (keep a hose, thats on, nearby... just in case). I sweep the area every 2 weeks (or when new stuff starts to come up) watering during and after each one, and it has solved 80% of my weed problem... basically you convince the plant to spend energy on new shoots and then zap them. Basicaly kills all the seeds and many of the roots.
Texas A&M studied it and fornd basically the same... 80-90 percent control after the third application.... some species showed %100 control... while some of the persistant grasses were less successful.
Nut grass is still a problem... but I have not found anything other than hand pulling (and digging down, following rizomes for 2-3 ft into the ground, burning it, encasing the ashes in cement and shipping it to the coast) that perminently deals with these. Some persistant grasses will take a while as well (bermuda... just dig it and get it over with).
Flaming works great when you are clearing a large area for next years garden and for sidewalks.... once the garden is planted... it has very limited use.
As with %20 vinegar, I suggest you take precautions with your 2 year old. Children in the garden is a blessing and keeping the poisins away (going organic)... makes it safer for them... but we must still be careful during times of application.
SB

Has anyone had any luck with the variety of natural herbcides in New Mexico?