Hi Whitecat, i do not know the answer but it seems to me that you have created a big challenge for your self by trying to grow all these different sorts of orchids under lights.

So what do you have that grows and flowers gang busters?

I have a similar problem with my indoor collection of Phals. Some are thriving, some are as the British say...poorly. i really do not know why.

My suspicion, and its only a suspicion in your case is too much humidity.

Whitecat, maybe more air movement is needed? Many of my 'chids have had those symptoms, but have no explanation.

Carol

Based on the way your leaves look and your mite infestation, the lack of humidity is your problem. Try adding a humidifier and fan. Also make sure all your mounts are getting a good 5 minute watering every day.

Hi Whitecat!

I feel your pain, a lot of my orchids also have an assortment of spots and blotches. In my case, I think they've been a tad too cold at night, plus the humidity is sub-optimal...

The doritis looks normal to me.

In your other post, the Ching Ruey, I think I'd be less worried about the spike than how the leaf below it has changed--but that's just me.

Angs are my specialty, and I also have a mounted Den. laevifolium hanging with them that is doing well too. At the moment I have an Aerangis fastuosa with three buds opening -- I'll post pics over on the Gallery in a few days.

You described placing a "clear plastic saucer over the top to preserve humidity." Unfortunately, this arrangement is a recipe for disaster. Stagnant, non-moving humid air will not provide optimal conditions, and offers malevolent pathogens a chance to gain a foothold. Yes, these plants require humidity, but not excessive wetness with no hope of evaporation. I notice the leaves on your fastuosa are wrinkled/rippled...this is a clear indication of root trouble.

My angs hang in the stream of incoming air into my gh. At any one point if you held your hand out near the plants on my "cool wall," it would feel like the breeze from a small desk fan, although the actual fans driving my ventilation system move somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000 CFM.

The moisture level at the roots of my plants, and the humidity in the air, cycles throughout the week. During the warmer months, I never let things get "crispy." On days like today when I watered in the morning, wetness and humidity are high. As the day wears on, the excess water evaportates, and humidity drops. At night it climbs back up when the fans shut off and temps drop. The following day or two, when I don't water, I'm running the air chiller which adds some humidity to the incoming air. Outside humidity in the springtime here can be as low as 15-20%, and humidity inside the gh can get down to 35-40% or so without the chiller running. When it's on, I'm back up to 50-70%.

It's hard to tell for certain, but the moss on your Den. laevifolium looks very dry. They like to stay evenly moist.

Having a gh does offer some advantages, but there are disadvantages as well. I can't moderate high temps during the summer very well -- which you can growing inside. I think with some modifications in your growing area, you'll be able to correct your difficulties.

The thing that makes growing orchids a bit mysterious is the fact that it can take so long for a problem to manifest itself, or a plant to finally expire. Also, blooming is a sign of plant health, but it can also be a sign of preservation under extreme stress...so it's not a good barometer of conditions. Angraecoids can hang on quite a while because of their rather fleshy growths, which can store reserves to continue their survival during less-than-optimal times. The fact that your Aerangis fastuosa bloomed previously may have been an indication of health achieved during the seasons previous to its blooming, and not the current conditions you were providing.

It's challenges like these, and your observant eye, that will eventually allow you to tweak your system so you'll get the results you're looking for. Best of luck!

-Bruce

It's sad to say, but it is possible there is a viral infection & it's being spread from one plant to another.

According to "Orchid Growing Basics" by Dr. Gustav Schoser (pg.39), "Viral infections are present when leaves show yellow and black mottling or stripes. The flowers are also affected. Many different virus strains destroy plant tissue. Viral infections are transferred from one plant to another. The caregiver comes in contact with the tissues or the sap of an infected plant and passes it on to another plant. Sadly, there is no cure for a viral disease. An infected plant must be disposed of in the trash."

However, I am not positive this is your case. I would bag each of them up and take them to your local Orchid specialist and/or University with a Horticulture program (if possible) for a professional oppinion first.

Does not look the least bit viral to me. Don't worry about a virus. It's cultural.

Hi all,

Thanks so much for taking time on this one.

Another variable is that, when the # of orchids got overwhelming several months ago, I stopped leaching under the faucet every 3rd or 4th watering, depending on medium. Instead, I watered plants w/ regular water for 4 waterings in a row. It could be weeks till those 4 "leaching" waterings were finished.

This also meant the leaves never got washed under the faucet during leaching, as they had in the past.

Another variable is that, over the last year or so, I potted many of the mounties. Either they didn’t do so well or didn’t look as good, so they were remounted, so some have had two big changes.

Arthur, my humidity is way low, rarely getting to 50% in winter in the closed orchid room. In the open living room, humidity is usually lower than 30%. Plants in the living room are doing better than the others.

As for the variety of orchids, the 1st two years, most plants seemed fine. As long as an orchid supposedly liked intermediate conditions or a tad cooler, I stuck it in the orchid room or the slightly cooler living room.

When people wrote about bugs or infections, I wondered why my plants didn’t have any symptoms, esp. because I was brand new to orchids.

Until this winter, I ran small humidifiers, even though the potential for germs and mold always made me nervous. They raised humidity in the closed orchid room and made no difference in the open living room.

No humidifiers this year after reading Consumer Reports last fall. Details are below my signature.

Carol, Smwboxer, & others, air circulation - way back on this forum, the consensus seemed to be that turning off fans at night was a good thing, and I turned off the fans at night. (Fans sit on the floor and aim air at the ceiling.)

Maybe I made it up, but I thought there was general agreement a few months ago that, in winter, fans weren’t necessary. The reasoning made sense at the time, but I don’t recall details. Regardless, I turned off the fans till a few weeks ago, when others said OMG NO.

Smwboxer, before this year, the mounties have pretty much flourished under my regular spraying regimen. Hopefully, if I adjust a couple of things, I won’t have to soak them for 5 minutes a day. If so, I’ll be seeing if you want all of’em. :)

Wiscnick - Yeah, the yellow leaf on the Ching Ruey is bothering me, too. I’m gonna pack up several of the plants and take them to an old hand. A few of my faves aren’t available anymore.

Also, awhile back this winter, I purposefully raised night temps from 58 or so to a minimum of 60, mainly for the Phal speciosa (formerly tetraspis). All the other warmer temp Phals have rebloomed in the lower temps.

Bruce - Thanks for the encouragement. No more lids on the glass jars. That bad habit grew out of too many orchids - my logic said the mounties in jars w/ lids could go 2 days without spraying, rather than spraying every day, which got to be way too much.

Last year, the Ang fastuosa bloomed just fine in a jar w/ no cover. If it hadn’t had 4 buds this year (1 blasted), I’d have wondered if the spiking was a survival thing.

Would you suggest doing anything else w/ the fastuosa besides keeping lids off the glass jars? Would you hang it outside the jar for a few weeks? For forever? It’ll go outside this summer. I’d hate to lose this old (for me) orchid friend.

Den laevifolium - I aim to keep it evenly moist but may not always succeed. Crispy works for the Phals.

Hort lvr, I am compulsive about washing my hands between plants if raw tissue surfaces are involved and always use fresh paper for repotting, use sterilized instruments for each plant, etc.

Unfortunately, some people have had to trash hundreds and even thousands of orchids - some irreplaceable, they’d cherished for decades, because of viruses. Some of their orchids had been passed on from family or legendary growers and were older than they were. As a result, virus is a charged word for many.

Off topic, but are there equivalent tragedies for people who grow begonias, cacti, and succulents?

Again, thank you all. Whitecat8

Paraphrased from Consumer Reports -

Mold can grow within 48 hours on wet surfaces, and mold in the tank or in the water can then be transferred into the air, potentially causing itchy eyes and breathing troubles.

Even units with antimicrobial finishes on tanks and wicks will become scaly and moldy if they’re not cleaned.

Change the water daily: Empty the tank, dry all interior surfaces, and refill with clean water. (My question - what about the filter?)

Cleaning humidifier (every 2 days? every 3? 4?): Although some parts may be washable in the dishwasher, they still need to be descaled with vinegar and disinfected with bleach. Completely dry all parts between descaling and disinfecting. (Including the filter?)

Clean the humidifier before you store it, and clean it again before using it the next season.

Consumer Reports didn’t test bacteriostatic solutions that claim to slow bacteria growth.

No way the cleaning thing is gonna happen in this house.

LOL, It's not really a big deal giving them a long soaking, but then again I only have 4 mounts. I usually just put them in the sink while I'm doing other things and get hang them to dry after a bit.

I use an ultrasonic himidifier. It does get dirty so during my Saturday morning watering I give it a good cleaning with diluted bleach and water.

The fans in the sunroom are on 24/7, but the speed is lowered during the night. After noticing some rot on my Catts (very unsual, as the humidity is quite low...30 RH isn't unusual), I upped the fan speed besides using Physan for the first time! (In 10 years of growing).

As I don't have a humidifier, I use a sprayer, sometimes several times a week. There is only one mount (Trichoglottis pusilla) that will be living in the sunroom, and I have plans to put it into a clear plastic pot with some fine bark mix today.

Carol

Hi Whitecat8 --

If nothing else, you sure are thorough! With that going for you, these setbacks can't keep you down for long! ;-)

Don't take your Aerangis fastuosa outside. There are too many hostile variables outside, especially if it's unprotected. I have a roach problem in my gh, and unless I spray and track down the little monsters where they hide, they seem to particularly enjoy munching on the fresh new leaves of this species. You wouldn't have roaches, but perhaps grasshoppers, a stray sunbeam, etc., could spell the end for your baby.

This species doesn't have much in the way of roots, and they tend to be small and fine. It doesn't appear from your photo that it has attached itself to the mount, unless there is some attachment underneath the pad of sphagnum. Andy can grow his "orchids on a stick," but unless you have gh conditions like him (or duplicate those conditions in a terrarium), that type of mount is much too small and thin for an indoor grower. What you need is a 5"x6" cork slab. Don't remove the sphagnum that is already in place. Just snip the fishing line, press the plant and pad into position onto the cork, and pack more sphagnum around it without approaching the lower leaves. Not a lot more sphagnum, but a bit more. If there's a little nook or crevice in the center of the slab, then take advantage of it and nestle the base of the plant into it. Having air only circulate around one side of the mount, as opposed to all sides, will keep it from drying out quickly. Also, the additional sphagnum will help.

Sometimes it takes a helping hand from a friend to get fishing line good and secure around a piece of cork. Tie a small loop on one end of the line first, make one loop around the mount, then feed the other end through the small loop. After you snug this up tight, you can wrap as needed easily, and then when you're ready to tie it off, gingerly hold the mount between your knees to free up your other hand. Knot the loose end against the small loop that should be on the back side of the slab. It doesn't take that many wraps of fishing line...usually four or five will do. More than that and you risk compacting the moss too tightly.

Is your water heavily mineralized? When I was using municipal water in south Florida (just about the worst water you can imagine), I never had problems, and never was concerned about flushing. Now I'm on well, with low TDS, and that's not even a possibility. Unless you're noticing white buildup, don't fret about this.

You may want to consider a large terrarium at some point, although if you've ever seen MrBreeze's pics of his setup, that's a dangerous path to go down! LOL! I think Calvin is doing this on a smaller scale for his angs.

Low humidity, all by itself, is not generally a "bad" thing. It's how the increased evaporation rate affects the substrate and exposed roots on mounties, as well as developing buds. Low humidity with high air movement = bad. Low humidity with no/low air movement = probably OK. High humidity with no/low air movement = catastrophic. High humidity with high air movement = great. If you have high air movement and your humidity cycles between 30-50%, that's probably acceptable if you make the change I suggested above.

If you allow your plants a seasonal dry rest in the winter, then your air movement wouldn't be as necessary most of the time. It's helpful to dry excess water off of leaves, but if your air is otherwise dry, and you water in the morning, that shouldn't be a problem. Most indoor growers don't do seasonal changes, however, so you probably would continue to run your fans throughout the year. The only reason I can see to run fans day and night is if you're using a terrarium. It certainly wouldn't hurt to run your fan over plants during the night in an open room, but, again, if you water in the morning, it shouldn't be necessary.

You may reconsider running your humidifiers. There should be enough treatment in your water to eliminate issues, but if you have a concern about bacteria/mold, then treat it yourself. I don't know the capacity of the units you have, but eight drops (or so) of bleach per gallon should eliminate the potential for any problems with pathogens. Keep in mind that as the humidifier is throwing out mist, you don't want that settling on plants when there isn't air movement. I don't believe the bleach smell will be that noticeable at that concentration, but you'll just have to experiment. Also, if you want to avoid having to clean the filter, de-scale, etc., then just purchase R/O water at one of those dispensers at the grocery store...30 cents per gallon around here.

Hope this helps.

-Bruce

...also collect snow and ice in the winter, and rain water in the warmer months for your humidifier.

-Bruce

I'm tending to agree with hort_lvr_4life about the virus possibility. I never had any reason to suspect any of mine were infected, no strange spots or stripes or anything peculiar, however a few of them grew poorly and didn't bloom, so I began sending in leaf samples and guess what!? One plant with no obvious signs had 2 different viral infections, and 4 others so far have cymbidium mosiac, all healthy-looking. Due to my experience I now believe that you might be able to tell by looking if it is virused, however you cannot tell if it is not.

Thanks for the recent responses. I've got a bug (that infects humans, not orchids) and will get back here in a day or so. WC8

Smwboxer, your Saturday humidifier cleaning is more discipline in that department than I can muster. Congrats.

Yeah, I got down to a few mounties by potting the rest, then decided to remount them. All that potting and remounting time could have been spent cleaning the humidifier!

Carol, you and Smw have 5 mounties total, soon to be 4. Maybe a separate addiction within the orchid madness is loving plants that do well mounted. Every day, I spray about 25 plants in the closed orchid room. Doesn’t seem to do anything for the humidity.

Bruce, I may have met my match in thoroughness. LOL

Thanks for the tip about remounting the fastuosa. And there just happens to be a cork slab lying around that’s the right size.

As for mounting material, a guy on another forum said he has loads of mounties and uses dark green telephone wire. I got some, but it’s too thick for many of the plants. I’ve also got some fine, black wire to try out. It’s finer than the dark green florist wire that rusts.

For 3 summers, but not last summer, just about everything went outside in the lathe house, which sits on the stone patio under the deck. Phrags, Paphs, etc. came inside during the real hot weather and then went back out.

E/SE light is cut 50% by 1”x 1” lathe panels. Chicken wire covers spaces where squirrels might get in. One summer, a leaf got sunburned, so I started rotating plants.

Knock on wood - there have been 2-3 raggedy leaves, maybe from grasshoppers, but nothing’s bothered the mountiess. Maybe it's simply that the law of averages hasn't caught up w/ me.

The panels out to the side are usually closed and secured.

{{gwi:146999}}

Water - our city water is terrible for orchids. The orchid guy who tested it said to use it only for leaching. I was using RO but now use water from a spring that’s kind of close. Old orchid hands say orchids love the spring water. If moss growing on potting media is a good sign, the spring water may be responsible.

The idea of a front-opening terrarium haunts me, and I’ll get one started pretty soon.

Humidity is under 50%, usually mid-30s to very low 40s; air movement is low. Nothing gets a winter rest unless it needs it - Den unicum, for example. At night, the fan brings in cooler air from the rest of the house.

Last I knew, RO was 50 cents around here. The humidifiers are 1.5 gallons. I may try the bleach. Consumer Reports doesn’t seem to overreact, but their cleaning routine isn’t realistic unless you’re a clean freak and have the time.

Thanks much for the comments and suggestions, everyone.

WC8

Your outdoor setup is MUCH too neat and tidy, Whitecat8! I'd be embarrassed to post any pics of my gh... LOL!

-Bruce

Whitecat8, that photo couldn't have been taken this time of year in Minnesota?! It looks like spring there. We got over 30 cm of snow on April 1. Some joke.

Actually I have 3 mounties, as the pusilla is still mounted, but in the pot. I have 2 Angrecoids growing with the Vandas downstairs. When you water, do you use a pump sprayer? That should increase humidity in your enclosed area.

Carol

Bruce, you've got a year round, outside GH in FL! You don't want to see the drip trays in the orchid room where the orchids live most of the year. :) Every time I take a picture for y'all, I try to place the plant so the gunky brown, dried water/fertilizer stains in the trays don't show up, along with spilled bark, sphag, stones, or dried-up flowers.

Do you think the set up is okay for the Ang fastuosa?

Carol, yeah the shot was taken summer before last. Two days ago, we had an inch of snow, have a fresh inch tonight, and will get snow for the next five days.

Inside and outside, I use watering cans to water. A pump sprayer might be an option inside, if I could get over the idea the sheet rock would buckle and fall down on the orchids and carpet - my shelves and plants are right up against the walls.

The other thing is not every plant needs watering at the same time, so I check each one each time and also check for blemishes and bugs. This is why I should be limited to about 3 orchids. LOL

Thanks for hanging in with this one. Y'all are the best.

WC8

Whitecat, I agree with a lot of the cultural advice on this thread, but now that you have the bugs I think you need to attack them with stronger insecticide, like Orthene or malathion. I know those are scary, but they are safe if you follow directions; and they biograde very quickly. Give everything a good drenching as you put it out for the summer and your plants will be able to enjoy their summer growth unmolested.

They way, I love your summer set-up.

Margo, thanks for the suggestion. Right or wrong for the orchids, I may never be okay w/ Orthene, etc., but I agree they need to get hit with something while they're outside.

Thanks for the compliment on the lathe house.

WC8