What mostly worked for me was simply putting the plant into a bowl with water and leaving it there for a week. By that time the leaves either start to look better or they don't. Your plant still has some roots left so that approach might work.

WC8,

Looks familiar ;-(

For me, I do what you have done but I use a clear plastic pot so I can monitor the roots. I may also have spread some rooting hormone around the base.

That one looks pretty far gone, but I've saved a few that were that 'challenged'. I'm finding that I have to watch my spagh-based phals pretty closely as I'm starting to see the same thing. For me, the 'root rot in spagh' problem seems to be worse in winter/cold weather than summer warm weather. Clear pots are my friend when needing to monitor roots.

What's strange is that I have a peloric phal that I picked up at a big box store and I'm having the same problem. Lost most of it's non-aerial roots after 1.5 years so in the fall of '06 I potted it in a 4" clear pot with spagh, and it perked up enough that it actually sent out a small spike last spring. I put it on a back bench and ignored to for a few months and I paid for it. It had lost most of it roots (too damp?) by the time I really checked it in mid-summer. Same trick but I used a rooting hormone, the little bugger now has some new roots, a couple of new small leaves and is putting out another small spike. If it had been anything other than a constistently blooming peloric, I probably would have Kev'ed it (we know he doesn't read these type of threads) after the second problem.

Good luck,

Bob

The only thing I would add is to increase the warmth in the area. Phals grow year round but will grow faster in higher temps. I like the clear pots to monitor the roots but the clay pot should be fine. You should be able to tell by weight and touch when the sphag needs to be watered. KLN or Superthrive when watering should also help. You have enough roots left, the plant should recover.

If it were mine, I would cut off the yellow leaf and the leaf just above it. They are dying so no reason to have the roots TRY to support them. I might even cut off the leaf where the tip is spongey but the area right next to the plant appears fine (seal the edge with cinnamon). It is hard to tell from the photo but if that is what I am seeing, don't be afraid to remove something that is dying.

Good luck, I'm sure you have saved a favorite.

Brooke

I do the same thing you do, WC8, clay pots and loose sphag, and up the heat, sligthly lower light for less stress and drier conditions. I don't really believe in clear pots, since it only tells you the good half of the story and they're too light for some of my plants, especially as they dry.

When you do repot, I've also been having problems with straight sphag, so I now mix in to it some fine bark (about 25%), some perlite (about 10%) and a little bit of charcoal (less than 5%). This gives me the advantages of sphag, but with a more open mix.

Good luck.

Julie

Thanks for the quick responses, y'all.

Nahala, I stuck it in tepid water till I heard from folks here. We were thinking the same thing.

Bob, the idea of the clear pot is helpful, and I've got rooting hormone. I haven't had this problem w/ an orchid in sphag before. In the future, I'll keep an eye out.

I'm glad your peloric is recovering. Where did you put the rooting hormone, and how much did you use?

'Member that thread when Kevin said he just couldn't resist reading Phal threads? Good morning, Kevin. VBEG

Brooke, this Phal has had temps from 58-78 all winter. Even the warmer-growing Phals have done fine this winter and last with those temps, but maybe this one needs more warmth.

The yellow leaf is one of two leaves on the plant w/ 3 aerial roots. I see your point about taking off the yellow leaf, but what would happen if both leaves on that plant were taken off?

Thanks again - WC8

Julie - you and I were posting at the same time, so I missed your response. It's funny - I've been having the opposite problem w/ media and last fall, mixed chopped sphag in the bark pots that were drying out too fast. For this plant, though, your mix may be just the thing. Thanks, WC8

Removing the leaves won't bother the aerials at all - don't pull them off, cut them off close to the base. You might find more roots under there. By removing them, the roots won't be stressed trying to support soon to be dead foliage. I also hope I am seeing the plant correctly in the pic but you can actually see it in real time.

It is the bottom temp of your grow area that needs to be upped. Many phals prefer never to have the bottom temp number go below 65. Even the upper range could be boosted a little if possible, but the lower temp is the most important one.

Brooke

Brooke - just to make sure I understand before grabbing the knife - if I cut off those 2 leaves, that one plant will have no leaves. Will a leafless plant develop leaves from 3 aerial roots? Thanks, WC8

Is this the bottom picture phal? To me, it looks like a big leaf with another smaller leaf plus the yellow and a wimpish leaf. No leaves is not good :>)

If one leaf, I would still remove the yellow - it is dead. Aerial roots are just roots not growing in the media. Soaking those and getting them into media is the best thing for the plant to have constant, but not soppy, moisture on them.

If you are down to the one yellow leaf and one wimpy leaf, good luck. This appears to be a perfect candidate for the method and pictorial pcan showed - shouldn't be too far back. Again, good luck and when you resusitate it, show pics again. Extra warmth is definitely needed.

Brooke

Thanks, Brooke. If I can save the larger plant, I'll be thrilled. WC8

WC, same thing happened to me 2 yrs ago. I agree with Brooke its the temps. These were Phals I had for years which suddenly went downhill quickly.

I didn't remove the leaves until they were finished. Moved to a warm room and put under light. Increased humidity and waited. They did come around. Two sent out healthy basal growth, the other made new leaves and survived.

I don't know what happened, but because culture was the same and the only variable was cool nights over a long period, I have to believe it was the temps. Shocking, the two which were hit the worse are still recovering. I didn't use rooting hormone, but that sounds like a good idea. I also kept the sphag fairly dry. I only gave water when it felt crunchy. I didn't want rot to spread. I also do not use sphag/bag!

Jane

Big duh. This plant didn't get repotted last year, even though all the other Phals did. Couldn't tell you why. Maybe the sphag compacted.

I just put it in a clay pot w/ new sphag that's very loose. Pored rooting hormone on the tops of the aerial roots, which went down in the sphag.

In the orchid room, this will dry out about every day. Should I pack the sphag as tightly as I usually would? The other Phals are in sphag in plastic pots, and they get crunchy every 3-4 days.

Jane, how cool were your nights? The orchid room can run a few degrees warmer at night, and I can use a humidifier.

I really appreciate everyone coming to the rescue of this plant.

WC8

WC8,

If we are talking the phal in the pic with the dark stump, I'd put the rooting hormone around whats left of the base and up the 'collar/neck' a bit to where the aerial roots are emerging from the stump. I think this is what you have already done.

FWIW: I moved my Violecea hybrids and species out of S/H and into spagh in fall of '06 because I thought they were struggling with low temps in S/H. My grow room generally runs between 62-78 in winter, @7-15 degrees higher other times depending on outside temps. They did great last winter in spagh but this winter they are beginning to struggle. No diff in grow room temps or lights, I'm thinking that maybe as the spagh breaks down combined with the expected slower drying out time when the temps are down is causing the problems by staying wet too long. I only water when the pot feels dry or the spagh is crunchy, so I don't think it is an over watering thing, they just stay wet too long in the winter?

I'm planning on repotting them back into fresh spagh and maybe a couple into bark just to see what happens.

For me, if a hybrid can handle S/H, it is absolutely the best media I can use to encourage great root growth. If it can't take the S/H (low temps in winter?) I keep trying different media until I hit upon one that works or one that puts the plant out of it's misery.

I'll compost troublesome oncs, dends and catts left and right, but a phal must be totally dead before I give up the ghost. I really like the color bursts in the doldrums of winter that they provide, plus not a lot of hassles the other 6 months of the year.

Someone mentioned in a earlier post that one should always be sure spagh is slightly damp, I'm thinking that may be a recipe for disaster in cooler temps. Your thoughts?

Again, good luck...

Bob

I hope you can save it, WC - it's a beautiful flower. I'll just give my experience about sphag and bag, since most people seem to not like it - I've only done it 3 times (2 out of those three, the phal wasn't in as bad a state as this), so take this with a grain of salt!

I've experienced dessication of this degree two times...the first time I failed to save the plant - I just repotted it in sphag like a normal phal, stuffing the few aerial roots it had into media, upping moisture and light...but I think it was too cold, wet, and too bright - the remaining leaf burned, the roots rotted, and it died.

The other one, I sphagged and bagged...I put it in a large ziplock with a bit of moist sphag in the corner, closed the bag completely, and put the whole thing in a brightish corner (shaded underneath a catt). I think the green-house effect (up heat) and humidity helped a lot actually...I feel that when aerial roots are all you've got, you need to keep them alive so that the plant can take up enough moisture without it sucking dry it's remaining leaves....I'm sure there are exceptions, but for me at least, 75% of buried aerial roots end up dying (some do live and start little nublet roots)...I've seen it with not just phals but also my sedirea japonica. I don't know why - maybe they don't like to be stifled? Technically as brooke said, they're just roots in the air, so it shouldn't make a difference, but that's what I saw. And it's happened in sphag, as well as CHC for me. So yeah, when you have a declining plant that still has quite a few aerial roots and some viable media roots left, then repotting might be better, since you avoid the nastiness that sometimes happens in s&b (can you say fuzzy mold?!)...but if you've only got 3-4 aerial roots, I play safe, dust with fungicide and bag it up. With the high humidity and heat, I can see the aerial roots green, indicating some level of moisture uptake, and at least the leaves won't have to worry about drying up anymore.

So yeah - I think the trick is to get new roots to grow before the aerial roots die, and the plant sucks it's leaves dry. Water is needed for any sort of growth, and while a semi-dessicated plant may have enough internal resources to push out a new lead or roots, yours looks like it barely has anything left - the final route of uptake are those 4 roots...and with the death rate of aerial roots in media that I've seen, I'd rather brave mold/fungus than to bet my chances on a lone surviving root!

But yeah, the usual disclaimer applies - this post is here more for discussion than advice!! Thought I'd just use this opportunity to pipe up and start a discussion on sphag and bag in case anyone else thought it was a good last resort. I don't LIKE it, but it IS my last resort, whereas potting up is for slightly healthier plants.

Hope you can save your plant!

Bob, yep that's the same plant. I'm a sucker for Phals, too - similar reasons.

Maybe you and others are right about sphag staying damp too long in winter. For whatever reason, this Phal was affected and others weren't - at least not yet. Maybe because I got it off to a bad start by leaving it in FL media too long.

Also, I'm a barely recovering underwaterer. Phals in sphag don't get watered till the top is stiff from dryness. Usually, they're watered 1-2 times a week, but now I'm wondering if they're staying too moist underneath the rigid surface sphag. I'll start checking pots.

All that said, most of you seem to be recommending a "regular" repotting in clay, rather than a rescue setting, such as loose sphag misted daily, sphag & bag, etc. Have I got that right?

Calvin, thanks for passing along your experiences w/ sphag & bag. I had a bad experience w/ it early on and haven't been willing to try it again.

Thanks again. This is most helpful. WC8

WC I wanted to add that I repotted all my Phals into a mix of CHC, sphag and a little bark. The three Phals which rotted were in sphag and one in Aussie. I now use the CHC mix for all. It dries faster, allows more air and I do think the combination of sphag and cool temps did them in. My other Phals were all in the same location and were fine. They were not in sphag.

My living room goes down to a low of 58-60 degrees. It is also drafty from large, old windows. What was strange was these were older plants. One was almost 10yrs old. They spent winter in the same place every winter.

If the outdoor temps go down too low, I will move them into a warmer room over-night. I have downsized to only 8 Phals because I got bored of them and they take too much space. I really neglect them the most. But, you can't take away the display they give on a dreary, freezing day...
{{gwi:142390}}

Jane

Jane, you've said your orchids have to be all over the house, and this is the upside - right there with the lamps and the chair and the fireplace. Lovely setting, plus you can see them as you pass by. Yep, gotta help w/ the winter blahs.

Maybe the CHC mix will be the answer, long-term.

Thanks, WC8

In my situation, I'm actually finding that in large pots (8" or larger) CHC stays damp longer than spagh. I have a very large Phal hybrid in a 8" pot with CHC and even though the top inch or so dries out, if I really check down deep, the bottom portion is still fairly damp. Definatley one of those lift and check weight kind of plants.

I also have a small Violacea species in a 4" pot with CHC and it does dry out fairly quickly, so it seems to based on quantity.

I think that one thing that is important concerning using spaph, is how it is packed around the plant. I don't like plants to be hard packed into spagh, I'm more of the 'stuff as much as you can without hurting the roots kind of spagh guy'. When viewing through clear pots, I usually see some air voids in the media.(That is until the moss and such take over the clear pot).

**Kneeling down seeking forgivenes from the phal goods, Bob makes this statement:**
I water my 40+ phals once a week, on Saturdays. If the pot seems to still be damp, I wait until the next Saturday. It seems to work for me most of the time. There may be a special occasion or plant that I treat differently, but between misting mounties every morning and evening, the Wednesday morning waterings and dealing with the other 100+ non-phals, I need to keep things fairly simple and regulated to maximize my enjoyment of the hobby. A few years ago it started to feel like a 'job', so I took the more laid back approach. Back then, Saturday morning waterings took 2+ hours, Tuesday evening waterings took about 1-1.5 hours and it just started to seem like a hassle. I then switched up my grow room to accomodate watering in place (had been a hauler and dunker) and now the Wednesday morning watering takes @10-15 minutes and I can water my entire collection and the house plants on Saturdays in about 45 minutes. Shortening those watering times really helped me to enjoy my orchids even more.

Bob

I use the CHC mix on my "adult" phals in larger air cone pots and it takes about a week for them to need water. I love it for the big phals but also use it for some dends that want moisture and some of the fine rooted catts. I get it from Kelly's Korner.

Julie recommended adding inert ingredients to sphag to lighten it up and I use tree fern because it has some nutrient in it that is beneficial. Sorry can't remember what it has but I love it mixed in the sphag. Even old sphag cannot become compacted with the little sticks in it.

If you don't have air cone pots, adding one of those small plastic 2" baskets to the middle of the pot will let the middle of the mix dry out faster to avoid rot in the middle.

That's all my tips and tricks for the day :>)

Brooke

My sympathies to you. Cameo is also my favorite, not only for its beauty, but because my daughter gave me the original plant for my birthday in 2003.

For some reason, even in FLorida, mine has been troublesome---the original plant died after sprouting two terminal keikis, one of which is the plant that is blooming now.

Unfortunately, this plant that has been blooming since Feb. of '07 (59 blooms on the original spike which is now sprouting a terminal keiki, and 15 and continuing on a side branch) is now dying itself!!! Has dropped two yellow leaves this week. Only left with the spike and the coronet-shaped central leaf that grew in Oct of '06 that I split with a razor. After I split the leaf, it did throw a basal keiki instead of a new central leaf, so hopefully that will bloom next year.

The plant and keikis were all in S/H, where all of my phal-types are, since '03. No other ones have died. They live on the north facing patio up against the screen, coming in the house for a few days when it goes below 50. A Dtps. Black Butterfly spiked 3 times last year, do think the general culture is good.

Sure hope you can save your Cameo. I know how disappointed I would be to lose mine.

Jan

More thanks, everyone.

As for the CHC in large pots, the largest pot I use is 5" and not many of those - staying small.

Maybe I'll experiment w/ CHC on robust plants this spring. Otherwise, my learning curve might hurt the Cameo.

Bob, funny about the Phal gods. I'm a sphag stuffer, too - always backing off a bit. And the care was getting to me, too. The solution for my 100 plants has been to check half of them every day. Before, it was all of'em every day. The mounties get sprayed daily.

Brooke, I've got small and medium sizes of bark mix on hand and am soaking some small for the Cameo's sphag.

Jan, can you say more about splitting the leaf to encourage a keiki? There's one leaf left on the one plant.

Amazing number of flowers. Wow. And curious that yours is having trouble, too, when others aren't. Pokes some holes in my theory about the FL mix. Or, they could be failing for different reasons.

I sure hope yours survives because it's so special.

WC8

Hi, WC8,

Have we lost our old posts??? Can't find the one I put here and on AOS back in Oct of '06 when I was asking about the coronet-shaped leaf on the Cameo.

I was posting then because the plants newest leaf was completely closed like a 6" tube, and I was afraid a new leaf would never be able to emerge. I asked about splitting it with a razor and someone said that would be the correct thing to try.

So, I slit it and put cinnamon on the edges. The leaf was fine with just an odd brown edge but not too bad looking.
The plant never did grow a new central leaf, but did throw the basal Keiki.

That original plant that had the "coronet" is the one with all the blooms now, and dropping the leaves this week all of a sudden. Could be a few too cold nights that I didn't bring it in??? when already stressed from so much blooming???

All that to say that I didn't intentionally split the leaf thinking that would encourage a basal Keiki...just a little more history on this particular plant.

Crossing my fingers for yours!
Jan

Temperatures below 55 - 60 will definitely have a negative effect on phals. Some will survive it, others will react quickly, but regular chilling is not a good thing in any case if you want a thriving plant.

jeanne

Jan, thanks for the info on splitting the leaf. Makes sense. One of the leaves on mine is "rolled," but not completely closed. It came that way, and newer leaves had emerged.

Yeah, earlier posts are kept for less and less time. Too bad.

Jeanne, nighttime winter temps were 58 degrees. With the changes I made, they're running 60-61 now. Hopefully, this will make the difference.

Thanks, WC8