They come up every once and a while. They are not as common but I'm sure some people here grow them.

Put an appropriate word in the search box at the top of this discussions page and see what comes up. Not sure what Hardy meant, so i put in Native and found some old posts that may be about the particular orchids you are interested in.

Read the thread about 'Dirt Plants'. I got a bunch of them, no results yet. Check out the offerings at:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/new-china2010/m.html?hash=item3cbfcbfebc&item=260915855036&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0amp;_trksid=p4340.l2562

Nick

Arthurm, sorry, I should have specified. Hardy for me here in my zone 6 USA garden. I don't usually mention my zone and/or location because it's pretty much part of my user name. But I realize now that "ri_z6b" doesn't mean anything to gardeners in other countries. Anyway, that's what I was wondering about. There are many kinds of orchids that can be grown in the ground outdoors here. The freezing cold and snow in our winters are no problem for them. It's usually summer heat and dryness that may be the challenge.

Nick, thanks for the info.

I have some Bletillia in my garden in NJ zone 6.

Check out the offerings at Fraser's Thimble Farms. http://www.thimblefarms.com/ They are easy to talk to, CITES and Phytosanitary is $25 per order, no matter how many or how few plants and they send you good plants. I have bought twice from them and was very satisfied.

Carson Whitlow is another good source of information.
http://www.c-we.com/cyp.haven/index.htm. Go to his page, 1/2 way down there is a list of 6 growers in America which offer a wealth of information and plants. I have not ordered from them YET but am studying their sites.

Nick

Thank you Nick.

Bill, i looked up RI in google and knew that zone 6 meant a cold winter. The word Hardy escaped me because i thought that maybe it referred to only some of the American Terrestrials.

Not too worry!

Arthurm,
It seems that the "hardy" orchids here would be some American natives, and several Asian, especially from Japan, and quite a few European ones as well. I tried bletilla once and they died very quickly. I'd like to give it another go, but I'd like some feedback from some who have had success, preferably someone in a similar climate. Your climate in NSW is less challenging for cold, but I'm sure you have your worries in other ways! But that's the fun of gardening...........overcoming the obstacles! I feel good when my plants thrive.

If you search this forum using 'Cyps' as the keyword, there are many posts about them.

The orchids which will grow in the cold up-north outdoors are mostly Cyps. The nurseries only seem to ship at certain times of the year so you have to reserve them.

Raising Rarities, OH
Wild Orchid Company, PA
Vermont Ladyslipper Company, VT
Hillside Nursery, MA
Spangle Creek Labs, MN

I have grown Bletilla for years in north Florida. The problem here is that it tends to bloom very early, in January, and about the time the flowers are real pretty, we'll have a few nights of temps in the 20s or even less which wipe out the flowers. After years of growing them as a garden plant, I switched to black plastic nursery cans; it gives me the option of moving the blooming plants into the garage for those really cold nights.

CJW,
Thanks for the info!

One more: Grass Pink Orchids, Florida, out of Cyprepidiums right now but a nice selection of Bletilla and Calopogan tuberosus. The Calopogan can be had for $8.00 each, I plan to get 4 of them and put them in one pot. It also comes in an alba variety found at one of the other sources listed in this thread. I have a 12" wide shallow (6" deep) pot, how would a 1/2 circle of lavender around a center of white look? Getting a little away from disciplined species growing but I never was a species snob.

http://www.grasspinkorchid.com/order.htm

Nick

I've placed orders of examples of Cyprepediums, Calanthe, Dactylorrhyza, Habenaria, Calopogon, Poponia and Spiranthes from the vendors mentioned above. I already have all the Bletillas, Epipactis and Pleiones I want. Most have a dead line for spring delivery.

Wish me luck.

Nick

Good luck, Nick! Do you use all these plants as landscape elements, such as in beds, etc. or maybe in a "natural" setting? Or are they just planted in an area? My understanding is that most of them do well with average soil that's not too dry, and partial sun. I'd be interested to know how you place them in your garden.

{{gwi:5901}}

Hey, Bill, I happen to work with a guy who has been adding "ground Orchids," as he calls them,
to his property every year. He lives up around 2,700 feet elevation, which translates to about zone 7
in this part of northern California. The foliage on these Orchids dies back, but they send up luscious
spikes full of flowers. I've been trying to find out more, since I know they'll survive in my more
temperate zone 7b/8a.

Josh

You forget I live in Southern California. None of them would survive growing outside except Bletillas, Pterostylus (Au) and the Epipactis gigantea which is a native around here. Our summers go to 95 with a low of 70. These plants will grow in pots in a cool greenhouse and will spend the winter in a fridge being 'vernalized'. I would love to have them in the garden but that simply is not possible.

The reason for having them, is to do something challenging and to have a display for shows or society meeting which is unique and stimulating. I don't know anybody down here who grows these things nor do the vendors offer them. Growing and blooming Cymbidiums is easy and done by everyone down here, simply no challenge, been there, done that.

Many will clump and a group of them in a shallow 12" dish is what I'm hoping for. I need to be able to unearth the tubers or bulbs as the whole tray would take up too much space in a fridge. In the spring one would have to replant them and repeat the growing cycle.

The exception are Cypripediums which make extensive root systems which they cannot be deprived off every winter. They need to be vernalized without removal from their pots. I have 6 kids, each with a fridge, no doubt they'll each get a carefully wrapped Cyp pot to keep for me in the winter. Either that or find a used fridge and dedicate it for these plants.

Nick

Nick, Maybe you could strike a deal with a local restaurant.......use one of the walk-in fridges in exchange for a nice display in the dining room. I'm sure you'd have to have a separate fridge from the one(s) used to store food.........don't want the health inspectors to get annoyed!

{{gwi:5901}}

Plants are not the problem, I don't want the health dept to find out about my frozen rats. I have a large Buffo frog or 'Pixie Frog' who will dine on a full grown rat. Recently I had a rat problem in my green house and eventually killed 5 of them with rat traps, no poison. The frog ate one of them but it will take 6 weeks or so before he's hungry again.

The rest of the rats are neatly wrapped and sitting in a corner of the freezer. None of the other carbon based lifeforms in the house have discovered this yet, I'm holding my breath. The deal with the restaurants would need to include rat vernalization making it more difficult.

A used, smallish fridge is dirt cheap, probably will be the final solution.

Nick

I'm pretty sure you're right. The health department would not look favorably upon a restaurant fridge or freezer full of rats. Even if the chef could prepare a gourmet dish with them, I doubt the health inspector would buy that excuse!
A used fridge would be pretty inexpensive though.

{{gwi:5901}}

I guess hardy orchids aren't discussed here...

Josh

I'm pretty sure that the Cyps wouldn't do well here since I don't have the moist conditions that most of them need. But I was hoping that some of the European field orchids might be a good choice. I don't see any replies from anyone growing them in the ground in zone 6 though. Maybe I'll just try some and see what happens.

{{gwi:5901}}

Growing these plants in the north is relatively simple as this is their natural environment. I was hoping to get a response and advice from someone growing them in z9. There are numerous issues such as:

1) They like to be kept cool. What about July, August? should they be allowed to get hot then and also how much light should they need? My cool house is fairly shady.

2) Vernalization. Which would benefit from leaving their bulbs/corms/noses in the pot as compared to unearthing them as we do with Pleiones to save fridge space.

3) Length and low temp of cold rest. I heard that some Cyps, as long as they are in their pots actually prefer to freeze for a few weeks. I usually vernalize from Thanksgiving to Valentine, some Cyp growers talk about leaving them into late March.

4) RO vs tap water? Does it make a difference to them?

5) Some come from pine forests, should they receive some acidic additives?

6) And the most important question: which are easy and which are difficult/hopeless in a setting such as Southern California even with the help of a fridge and a cool greenhouse.

Nick

There is an orchid show in Westminister, CA, went there as I am displaying some plants on a couple of society tables and talked to Andy. Turns out that he is quite interested in the plants discussed in this thread, just never brings them as there is a very limited market for them.

He did have a Stenoglottis woodsii, South Africa terrestrial, 7 little rosettes starting up. He claims they double in size every year, deciduous, outdoor grower in SOCAL, no vernalization necessary.

Also Spiranthes odorata, Massachutes, 4 rosettes, same growing conditions as above, self seeds like crazy, when in bloom set it on a flat tray of soil and expect tons of babies in the spring.

Finally Cranichis mucosa, Latin America, warm grower, also self seeds like crazy, in bloom, need to give it a place to self seed.

He said that he tried repeatedly to grow Dactylorrhyza and failed each time. If he can't grow them, that's a pretty good indication I will also fail but I ordered and paid for them already, too late.

Also picked up a Bonnatea speciosa 'Green Egret' FCC/AOS, good day for terrestrials. I find it amazing how I walk past all these vendors with their endless supply of floofy cats, Cymbidiums, Phaelies and the all the usual fare and have lost all interest in them. I guess it's part of the evolution but then I know people who have been growing them for 30 years and never lost interest while also never developing interest in the unusual stuff. I guess for most, orchids have to be beautiful and flashy.

In the end it all works out, there is something for everybody.

Nick

One of the spud farmers in the local orchid society grows Stenoglottis woodsii to perfection and it is a beautiful orchid.
I had stenoglottis fimbriata for ages. It went to orchid heaven after i decided that it would do better if i gave it a really dry period in winter. Sob

Said spud farmer is having a bit of success with a Dactylorhiza, but i do not know the species name.

That's good to hear, one of Andy's helpers also said that woodsii is a beautiful orchid. If you can, could you ask the spud farmer in question if there is a trick to Dactylorhiza?

Thanks, Nick

Rang said spud farmer, he lives too far away to visit....
Has two Dactylorhiza, a fuchsii and another species where the name is in dispute, so it has been named Harold Esslemont after the guy who grew it in Scotland. Mr Google has some nice images.

Anyway, summer is the problem so the pots the plants are growing in are placed in a very large tray of material which is kept damp to keep the roots of the plants cool.

Add one more plant to the list of desirable. Saw a picture of a colony of Calypso tuberosa yesterday at a meeting, very nice. Does anyone from Northern California know where to get some tubers?

Nick

Nick, that is Calypso bulbosa not tuberosa. Check this link as you only chance is with someone who is trying to master its cultivation. Naturally collected plants will fail though if you live in their natural habitat they MAY survive if your conditions are exactly right. Here is the link: http://calypsobulbosaorchid.blogspot.com/

For your questions on cyp growing:
1) They like to be kept cool. What about July, August? should they be allowed to get hot then and also how much light should they need? My cool house is fairly shady.
------------It is their roots that need to be kept cool.
They enjoy mottled light or provide 2-3 hours of direct sunlight, for you in either early AM or late PM. Plant them in white pots with lots of drainage and a mix that drains well. I use a foundation mix of old decomposing bark
mixed with Lyonothamnus floribundus asplenifolius (Catalina Ironwood) any hardwood leaves, like oak
and some Japanese Maple leaves.
To 2 scoops of the above I added 1 scoop of medium gravel that I
sieved out of the SM river sand I got last March. Granitic gravel may work as well. You can sieve some out of decomposing granite available at landscaping yards.
I added 1 tablespoon of nitrohumus to the above and got my
best root growth with this combo.

2) Vernalization. Which would benefit from leaving their bulbs/corms/noses in the pot as compared to unearthing them as we do with Pleiones to save fridge space.
-------------------- I depot the plants each year as you should repot anyway every year if growing in pots to give the plants fresh substrate. Also it will give you a chance to see how the roots look and to see how the new growths are doing. Use freezer baggies and store around 36F-38F.

3) Length and low temp of cold rest. I heard that some Cyps, as long as they are in their pots actually prefer to freeze for a few weeks. I usually vernalize from Thanksgiving to Valentine, some Cyp growers talk about leaving them into late March.
--------------------Think it may depend upon the species. The more northern the species occur the longer the vernalization. I have C. californicum and I cool for 3 months from mid Dec. to mid March.

4) RO vs tap water? Does it make a difference to them?
---------------This should be a NO BRAINER!!! Quality water is IMPERATIVE! For cost, r/o water is your best bargain.

5) Some come from pine forests, should they receive some acidic additives?
-----------------Only C. acaule is demanding on acidity but if you use r/o water its acidity may be sufficient for a plant planted in a neutral mix. You can get a pH test kit and check the run off of your potted cyp to see what the pH is like or check it before potting up your plants.

6) And the most important question: which are easy and which are difficult/hopeless in a setting such as Southern California even with the help of a fridge and a cool greenhouse.

------------For So. Cal. C. kentuckiense is prob. the easiest as it occurs the furthest south of any of the species. C. parviflorum also occurs south but may be more demanding than C. kentuckiense of cool temps.

Thanks, helpful.

Nick

On the Calypso bulbosa, I was mixing that up with Calapogon tuberosa which is readily available. The Calypso sounds too difficult with it's dependence on a locally occurring fungus.

Nick

Fraser's Thimble Farm confirmed the difficulty of growing it. They tried numerous times, all unsuccessful. I think I'll pass on this one, not that it is available.

Nick

Cannot believe that it is that time again!! I must be slowing down!! Anyhow today I pulled the plants out of the frig and repotted all into the same mix I used last year cut 1/2 with some more granitic gravel, reamed out the drainage holes in the styrofoam quart cups with a phillips, and potted up the plants which all seem to have a nice set of green buds waiting to burst open.
Top dressed with a decomposing bark/peat moss mix and watered with r/o. And set them out into the sunny but cold air. Nite temps look good being in the high 30s and low 40s so the shock from the 37F of the frig will not be too severe. Now the long wait until I see the shoots developing! Will add pics then.

Hi Bill,

There's also a terrestrial orchid forum that's fun and instructive. Broadens my orchid horizons. There may be other forums, too.

If GardenWeb prohibits links to other forums, just search for terrestrial orchid forum or terrorchid dot org.

WC8

Here is a link that might be useful: Terrestrial Orchid Forum

WC8 thanks for the info.

{{gwi:5901}}

That is a great forum, I've bounce around it before, absolutely amazing.

Nick

I got a Cypripedium in bud and I'm exited. Reminds me of Joan Rivers who was asked once what she really would like to be. Her response: "Pope, I would really like to be the Pope but for a Jewish girl from New York that is difficult unless you know some one."

Growing Cyps on Southern California is similar. There a number of vendors to order from, I talked to all of them and got the same advice. Start with hybrids and after you successfully grow these try your hand at species. I ordered one species, Cyp kentuckiensis, which they said was the easiest and a hybrid, Phillip, from the Wild Flower Co. and I also ordered substrate from 'Raising Rarities'. All give you advice how to make your own substrate but since these buggers have such a high failure rate with us down here, I thought why not go with what the experts use. For $14 they send me a bag enough for 5 plants.

The 2 Cyps arrived in March in full dormancy and since then have sprouted. Kentuckiense has a bud and a second growth, the other one a robust growth but no sign of bud yet. As Borat would say: "Great success!"

This feels like a first date, the second date is the one that counts. After blooming and growing them, successful vernalization and repeat performance next spring is the real trick. So far so good. If these continue doing well I will order more for next spring.

I don't know anyone else in SOCAL who grows these, if someone knows of a hobbyist who is growing them down here, please let me know.

Nick

By the way I also had ordered one from China via Ebay and that plant promptly died as was predicted. Got a real nice selection of Pleiones from them which are doing well.

Nick

I'm amazed how fast they develop. From dormant tuber taken out of the fridge and now planted, to green tip appearing took 3 weeks. Less than 5 weeks after it broke ground, the Cypripedium kentuckiense is in full bloom. I have another one, a hybrid named 'Phillip' which is also growing very rapidly but no sign of bud. Hopefully next year.

Nick

Full bloom is in the eyes of the beholder. 5 weeks after breaking ground, the bud opened alright but it was a uniform pale green. The dorsal lip was flopping over so one could only see the pouch if one lifted the dorsal.

It looked so unlike any kentuckiense I saw in photo that I phoned the grower and queried the accuracy of the tag. He thought it may have been a mix up and I got an alba form of a hybrid but asked me to wait at least a week. A few days later the sepals and petals started turning a pale, washed out brown, the dorsal was still flopping over the pouch. I now accepted the fact that I had a kentuckiense but one of extremely poor quality.

I almost phoned the vendor again but bit my lip. A full 10 days after it started opening, it is a deep dark brown and the pouch a strong uniform yellow. A perfect kentuckiense. It's been open 3 weeks now and still looks perfect. Our society meets in 3 days, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Quite an experience, especially if you watch it like a hawk and notice any nuance of development.

Just ordered a few more from Fraser's Thimble Farm, as a end of the season treat they are shipping budded Cyps. Exiting! I never forget though that this is the first date, the second one is the one that counts. If all this repeats itself next spring, I'll be very happy.

Nick

Nick, congrats. Sounds beautiful. WC8